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Poll 2015 poo thread

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by Bloke, Sep 14, 2015.

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Kosi NP users: do you carry out your poo

  1. Yes, always

    26 vote(s)
    44.1%
  2. Mostly, unless i'm somewhere less frequently visited

    15 vote(s)
    25.4%
  3. No, that's gross!

    18 vote(s)
    30.5%
  1. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    1984 prophetic, great view :evil:
     
  2. Moondog55

    Moondog55 One of Us

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    The new Feathertop hut; one of the few examples of a toilet being 3 times the size of the hut it services
     
  3. Snow Blowey

    Snow Blowey Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    yeah but Victorians are full of it!
     
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  4. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    we remember the one at Cleve Cole got its stairs fire damaged in the big fire and Parks had it wrapped in hazard tape for some time..

    it would appear that Parks Vic seems to be heading in a new direction in terms of where it ranks its human visitors...
    also worthy to note that the water tanks at Fed,Michelle and Bivouc and also Cope are not only good for good water but also play a role in hygiene ...cos after a crap it is desirable to wash those hands..this has to be an improvement...

    KNP still on different management course than its southern neighbour...lets hope they can catch us up....:D

    boys up on Main Range still melting snow or risking the polluted run off ...lot of fossil fuel going up melting that snow for water...oh those were the days meting snow.........
     
  5. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yeah, hopefully they'll propose a ludicrous camping fee arrangement soon.
     
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  6. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    good day moondog.....yes seems a bit excessive in size but Parks Vic allow for increased visitor nos perhaps....at least some National Parks are planning a few decades ahead....:p:p

    research may have been done on nos seen each Easter.....you got to hand it to Parks Vic
    hut,water tank and dunny....
     
  7. Snow Blowey

    Snow Blowey Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Some showering facilities also. That arse chaffing is just not acceptable.
     
  8. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Toilets at Whites River Hut. Toilets at Horse Camp Hut. Toilets at Island Bend. Toilets at Thredbo Diggings. Toilets at Ngarigo. Toilets here there and everywhere.

    What surprises me is that you are not advocating installing toilets on top of Bogong.
     
  9. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    There's already 2 sets of dunnies on Bogong. Not on the top though.
     
  10. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    And not above the tree line.
     
  11. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    hey u guys must be slow.....15min from Bogong to one of 3 toilets...take your pic....

    skins must have slowed you down or something????

    Maybe from time to time u are busting to go but all skiers know there are dunnies that can be used and its helping to keep the mountain clean...so maybe u crap up there and hopefully u bring it back down but the dunnies are increasing the clean up potential big time...crap on the way past going up and coming down....

    KNP special toilets are in Schlink corridor and in car camping ground of IB,TD & N.

    but I am wondering what is on offer at Illawong???

    global warming may well cause the treeline to gain some altitude and then your problems would be answered...:p:p

    some dunnies at C.Pass ,Illawong and Rawsons Pass would intercept some of your Main Range Poo....

    nobodys actually prepared to say that special toilets cannot function above tree line if correctly designed...which is pretty interesting.

    Team Bears think there are more creative solutions out there if we think a bit more...
    but for the moment keep using those poo tubes as an interim measure....
     
    #311 Ubiquitous Steve, Sep 22, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2015
  12. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Only US could think that a loo every 15 minutes is a good thing. Have you seen anyone about the incontinence problem?
     
  13. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    A few people have said it could be done, but that they don't think the $$ are likely to be spent there for a very long time. But, hey, who knows.
     
  14. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    no problem that Team Bears can see other than some warriors are not flexible in outlook...

    Parks Vic is dealing with the issue of pollution on our states biggest mountain...

    its not very far from West Peak to CC.and its stuff all distance down to one of the three huts....
    the problem is those that don't crap in your little bags will drop one in the snow but they will most probably use one of the dunnies provided before they do ......

    Legs just a heads up for you....mental health week is coming next month maybe u could seek support for your senility issues...just don't tell your practioner about the poo tubes cos they may suggest some rehab.....:whistle:
     
  15. Moondog55

    Moondog55 One of Us

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    Easter numbers? Yes; up to ten times more people there then than at any other time of the year
     
  16. AndrewA

    AndrewA One of Us

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    So, Moondog, if for example there are 11 people at Easter and 10 other times - then that's 1.1x more at Easter than other times ( which is "upto" 10 times more people at Easter...!). Such a pedant I am!

    Steve, you're obviously a speedy ganzales on Bogong. No way I could get all the way from summit to CC or one of the other huts in 15 mins - without some unsustainable isometric bum exercises...

    A
     
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  17. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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  18. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    some body says" afternoon tea"

    and I guarantee Team Bears have dropped 200m in a couple mins...

    its the rum and coke ration...turns normal bears into performance athletes....
    can be difficult to get any work out of them for some time after their smoko tho...
    .
     
  19. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    I didn't have enough internet or time to properly reply until now, so look out!

    Every time a person enters an environment the person impacts on the environment, generally in a multitude of ways and the environment impacts on the person. Whether those impacts are positive, negative, neutral or irrelevant is a result of the classifiers values. How these impacts are assessed is as varied of the people who have a stake in any particular environment, as is evident in this thread.

    Labeling people in this thread as elitists on one hand, or vandals on the other isn't useful since those positions, like all other positions in this debate are emotional, rather than rational and are based on the individuals values. Which is generally why these threads often devolve to ad hominem attacks rather than considered debates.

    My own position is that the Alpine Areas are unique, both due to their "natural" values, but also due to the limited interaction they have had with people until the arrival of Graziers. Due to the spiritual significance of the Alpine Areas Aboriginal interaction was limited to only the individuals with the highest status (large corroborees happened at elevations lower than montane ecologies). Beyond anthropological information we know human interaction with the Alpine Area was limited due to the Blue Lake sediments. Using fire frequency as a proxy for human interaction the fire frequency in the Blue Lake Sediments went from approx 1 fire every 700 years to 1 fire every 3 years after the arrival of europeans as the Graziers burnt the high country each autumn to encourage the growth of high nutrient fresh pick on the alpine grasses and to reduce the area of heathland. Due to the limited Aboriginal interaction with the high country it is one of the less cultural landscapes prior to European arrival. Because of that limited interaction I feel it is an area which should be conserved to protect its "environmental" values before its "recreational" values.

    This debate is about how to manage the potentially opposing values of recreation and the environment in the Alpine area, especially in KNP. Whenever people recreate in the park they make reliably deleterious impacts on the Alpine Environment. Management decisions have however been made to limit the impact of recreation by the provision, or removal of infrastructure. The greatest provision of infrastructure has been the Ski Resorts which have significantly altered the environments in which they sit. Next comes the raised walkway to Kosci and Rawsons Pass, then the toilets at Rawsons Pass and finally the Lakes Walk path. These areas are described as sacrificial areas in the Environmental Management Literature. To more easily manage the impact of recreation by providing more than adequate infrastructure the majority of visitors will limit their use of the environment to those areas with infrastructure and not impact other areas under management.

    As well as providing for recreational users infrastructure also attracts park users. This is a very important principle in managing recreational users. Before adding infrastructure to reduce an impact (poo in the case of this thread) managers must be careful not to increase the total impact of visitors (increased people due to the provision of infrastructure) even though they have reduced the impact of any individual visitor.

    This issue goes beyond toilets. Simple and primitive infrastructurelike walking trails create significant impacts, especially in the spread of invasive plants and animals. A paper was just written on the topic of the impact of trails.

    Adding infrastructure does not necessarily reduce the impact of users and it also comes at a significant opportunity cost. Every dollar spent on recreational infrastructure is money which can't be spent on environmental management. Every dollar spent on a toilet or track maintanence can't be spent on invasive species control, research or the rehabilitation of particular ecologies or species.

    There is no easy answer, which is why it is so easy to criticise any park management, they have to manage for multiple values which are often opposing, and for the interests of many stakeholders. These values and interests are never going to be the same as any individuals interests or values. So rather than complaining get involved at a level beyond recreation. Learn about the environments you recreate in, participate in management (for whatever value is most important to you) or even better do some research or volunteer. Help find Orange Hawkweed or help maintain a Hut. There is a lot more to these places than recreation, come to appreciate these areas for what they are, rather than just for what they can offer you.
     
    #319 Telemark Phat, Sep 26, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2015
  20. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    It would be remiss of me not to post in this thread while on the can at a backcountry hut. So there you go.
     
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  21. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    No ------- there you go :crap:
     
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  22. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Is it really BCif there is phone coverage in the hut dunny?
     
  23. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    BC but not Remote Wildernarse!.
     
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  24. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Was only 3G. Could have got 4G on the main range but hard to hold the bag and phone there.
     
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  25. Rimey

    Rimey One of Us

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    Do you need three hands ?
     
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  26. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here Ski Pass: Gold

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    Didn't you have a mate with you?
     
  27. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Sounds like an all encompassing Ecology 101 Lecture.....

    thanks for post but u are really saying there is a multitude of variables to consider in good management...

    but remember doing nothing is not a viable management strategy....
     
  28. Snow Blowey

    Snow Blowey Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    What if doing nothing gets the same outcome as doing something?
     
  29. Snow Blowey

    Snow Blowey Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    A new phone feature perhaps. "Hands Three". Phone holds itself out for a shitting selfy.
     
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  30. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yes it is, if people carry their crap out.

    Nanny staters wanting the gummint to fix things for them... :confused::rolleyes:
     
  31. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    Do nothing is always a management choice. It depends on what the problem is and what you're managing for as to whether or not its a good choice.
     
  32. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    with respect the decision to do nothing preceding the near Canberra inferno was a case in point of she will be right lets just wait and see and do nothing????
    Again doing nothing is worse than just lazy management it comes with costs!!!:whistle::whistle:

    the new fire frequency and intensity will require some tough decisions by KNP management but doing nothing doesn't sound like a top soln....
     
  33. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    You audtioning for a part in Robin Hood with a long bow like that?
     
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  34. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    legs what u on about now!!!:rolleyes:
     
  35. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Is your poo flammable? I would get that checked out.
     
  36. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    If people carry their poo out the issue is solved. Or you could ask the government to provide you with a solution.
     
  37. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    well I don't know anybody that will try to defend the land managers when such a stupid decision was made to sit on a small fire in the fire danger period and do nothing.....but that's what happened and the adjacent land owners were repeatly asking for management to come and take some action....

    you can sit around all u like and the blackberries,feral animals,weeds and problematic wild fires are ganna have a free for all...

    it would seem robin hood had a better management style than some I might add...:cheers:
     
  38. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here Ski Pass: Gold

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    Not a long bow at all, a very valid point!
     
  39. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yeah, decisions about winter accessed dunnies in a small area of KNP and decisions about mass-scale hazard reduction buring across three states and six or eight different agencies are pretty similar. In fact, pretty much the first comparison that comes to mind.

    Sheezus.
     
  40. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    government department workers get paid to do a job ...they get appointed because they have skills and academic qualifications and a relevant work history....they get paid to carry out the best solutions to problems they face...

    you could argue a case that every body in a national park has to carry out their poo and this would possibly save heaps..
    but alas we have the scientific ability to do more..we can make high tech solutions because we are clever ..
    if greenies want to put their heads in the sand well I do have a problem with that...:thumbs:
     
  41. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    well if KNP cannot cut the mustard in relation to fire prevention,detection and suppression then one would have to wonder about their ability to meet other challenges faced by the environment..

    whats relevant is the lack of response to a critical issue....no body mentioned mass scale fire reduction burning...

    small fires take only small crews to check them initially .....management provided nothing...they made a management decision not to take any action!!!

    land holders pleaded for action....but management had decided that it had chosen the" no action strategy""
    saying it backfired would be a funny pun if the consequences had not been so dire!!!:whistle:

    hey dire rhymes with fire!!!
     
  42. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    You're awesome.

    You should get a job with Parks and change the world.
     
  43. Moondog55

    Moondog55 One of Us

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    What's wrong with doing our own research and development of a hi-tek, portable LW green solution?
    It's the water in the waste that carries the mass, what's left is relatively LW. So lets work on this; we need a vapour permeable plastic container to allow the water to evaporate. Seems to me something like the water generator some of us use could be the working principle
    Black container with a second transparent skin and an insulating vacuum and some greedy bacteria to consume the solids ??
     
  44. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Your definition of high tech and mine are clearly different.

    Carrying poo out is a low cost, low impact way of solving the problem. I like low cost, low impact solutions to problems.
     
  45. Snow Blowey

    Snow Blowey Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    In this case do nothing does not change the situation. The pull / push factors bring people to the main range, or keeping them away stay the same.

    You are advocating for changes that make the pull stronger. And those for whom this pull is relevant are the kind of squeamish people that do things like leave poo and rubbish behind when someone doesn't provide a clean up service. The more visitors to the park, the more poo there is in the park.
     
  46. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    and do we really feel that a decent dunny at Rawsons Pass is a crowd puller....
    hey everybody they have a new dunny at Rawsons lets all go check out the facilities...and visitor nos sky rocket..???

    it would appear that the infrastructure provided doesnot lead to a worse state of affairs as argued by T.P

    LOL
     
  47. Snow Blowey

    Snow Blowey Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    About 5 plastic shopping bags is about as high tech as it need be. The shit you carry out is the food you carried in, only lighter. The body gets most of the liquid out and then it gets a few days in the bag to dry out before your departure.
     
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  48. Snow Blowey

    Snow Blowey Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    No but a chairlift ride to 1950m, a steel elevated walkway to keep people from getting wet and muddy feet and Australia's highest mountain were the pull factors that see so many visitors in that small area of the park. A great case where building the infrastructure pulled the people in and created more problems that had to be solved by installing more infrastructure.

    If you just keep installing infraustructure you just pull more people into areas they didn't previously go and create new problems along the way.
     
  49. Snow Blowey

    Snow Blowey Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    And in this forum alone we've had several people indicate that the lack of a toilet and fireplace is one of the things puting them off overnight snow camping trips. So as ridiculous as your post sounds, some people will be pulled toward the toilets and huts with firewood.
     
  50. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    hey you dudes have got to move with the times....more visitors to the Park is good....yes its a good thing....

    but you have to have the bright solutions to the problems...and that's the dilemma.... some still don't like Visitors cos its a National Park and its like" u are really pests and stop us from doing our important National Park jobs."..

    you need attitudinal shift///big time here.....:p