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22 Designs Lynx NTN Binding

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by skifree, Sep 25, 2018.

  1. skifree

    skifree grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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  2. skifree

    skifree grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Skied these 22 Designs Lynx NTN binding today. It’s still a beta/production prototype rather than the full production edition due maybe November.

    Some comments later but starting point is it good and should be on the radar of anyone looking to go NTN / lightweight / tour.
     
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  3. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Flex plate has adjustable feel by moving the metal bar (3 settings)?

    Looks industrial!
     
  4. Boodwah

    Boodwah One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Looks awesome.
    Where did you get them?
    I really like where NTN is going, potentially as light plus robust as AT.
    Just a shame nobody making the lightweight boots to match.
    I'm a big fan already of my Outlaw Xs.
     
  5. skifree

    skifree grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Gimmick.
     
  6. skifree

    skifree grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    The sample here is one of 2 pairs Wilderness Sports has to play with.
     
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  7. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Tasty.
    I see Dostie is a fan.
     
  8. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    So?
     
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  9. buckwheat

    buckwheat One of Us

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    Hey skifree, any comments on how they ski? I currently use Outlaws and reckon they ski pretty well (notwithstanding getting in/out issues)- would be interested in a comparison!
     
  10. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    http://www.telemarkskier.com/first-look-22-designs-lynx/
    Quote:
    Lynx confirms that the core components of a 2-pin tech toe and spring tension on the 2nd heel yield the best tele sensation I’ve ever felt in over 30 years of dipping the knee. Craig Dostie
     
    #10 Ziggy, Sep 26, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2018
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  11. skifree

    skifree grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    The exec summary is the Lynx skis just like a Meidjo. Which is a good thing.
     
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  12. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    I'm sure the Lynx skis well, 22D makes good bindings, but Dostie is a shit judge of equipment because his technique is fundamentaly flawed. This leads him to underrate equipment which didn't act as a crutch for his poor technique.
     
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  13. piolet

    piolet Better make it three Ski Pass: Gold

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    Making it valid for us punters?
    LOL
    :p
     
  14. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I can get a crutch, to replace technique? All that money wasted on lessons!

    hahaha.

    I am actually amazed at how I now sometimes see really strong skiers, but I can pick the flaws in their technique, and wonder at just how much better they could be. Not that I am that great, its a different skill, to be able to detect errors, even in your own skiing (vids etc).
     
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  15. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    Naa, not really. He was one of the people who poo pooed the initial NTN release and put the sport back more than a decade. He poo pooed it because the Freeride wasn't a crutch for his shit technique, rather than because the system was bad. He skied like a total retard on the first NTN equipment, is a shame I didn't make a copy of the video before he took it down from TTips.

    He comes to heaps of false conclusions. Tech toes do not necessarily make for better edgeing. A freeride with a riser is better because of the increased leverage. With good technique the bulk of the difference between the outlaw and the freeride is feel (and the shit free pivot on the Freeride).

    My recommendation is:

    100% resort = Freeride or Outlaw if you prefer a more 75mm feel.
    More than 50% resort = Outlaw (the freedom didn't weight much less, had a worse free pivot and is laterally sloppy)
    More than 50% BC = Meijdo (I haven't skied on the Lynx, but I'm sure it will sit nicely in this niche)
    BC only for Turns = As above
    BC for distance / lightest weight = Newmark if you can find one (partially killed by people like Dostie), or TTS.

    Heel throw versions are rubbish compared to duck butt attachments, so avoid TTS and Bishop (TTS is good where effeciency is the priority though).
     
  16. piolet

    piolet Better make it three Ski Pass: Gold

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    Thanks for the thoughts :)
     
  17. Boodwah

    Boodwah One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Newmark definitely dead, have combed the earth for a pair. Company rep has emailed that no more production period.
     
  18. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    I forgot to say. If you enjoy your skiing it doesn't matter of you use equipment to overcome a flaw in your technique. It only matters when you act like Dostie.
     
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  19. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    Sad. You might be able to get @skifree to part with his pair.
     
  20. piolet

    piolet Better make it three Ski Pass: Gold

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    I think this is what I'm missing... What's dostie doin?
     
  21. skifree

    skifree grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Long time journo in a small incestuous world that can have a bad case of not made hereitis
     
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  22. Boodwah

    Boodwah One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    In fact I just got some TTS heals for couple hundred and will find some uber light toe pieces. Just want them for an old pattern based ski. Although as already mentioned i dont see the point when boots are so heavy.
    i am thinking of trying to make a tele frankenboot out of some old Dynafit AT boots
     
  23. rowdyflat

    rowdyflat One of Us

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    Yeah would love a stripped down version of a T4 with a light exoskeleton , thinner sole and liner .
    Apparently the Scarpa F1 boots had a bellows at one time and weighed about 1200g.
     
  24. skifree

    skifree grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    I might hire them.
     
  25. skifree

    skifree grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Back to the Lynx.

    I have held off to sleep on matters somewhat and to ski again today on my regular Meidjos.

    As per the exc summary above the Lynx does ski just like the Meidjo, no real surprise. Edge to edge they are basically the same and the take up of the flex springs is smooth. You might get a pair of either being sloppy compared to another pair just thru wear of the flexing parts.

    The Meidjo offers 3 different springs, base spring, base spring plus another spring and a stiffer red line spring that i am now normally running. And the pretension of the springs is adjustable via a wind up nut.

    I assume the Lynx will offer a couple of spring choices and it looks like these will also have pretension adjustment via a wind up nut. This is in an unfinished on the betas but should be tidy on the production version. I don't tend to play around too much with this type of adjustment, usually set and if it feels OK leave it. I don't think there is a lot to be gained from endless very small adjustments.

    The Lynx has a 3 position flex point adjustment similar to what was provided on the Hammerhead. I think this is more of a gimmick than anything else, to me the binding design & test team have this in because they could not agree when the flex point should be. It might be most useful to tailor the flex point to suit where the bellows are on different sized boots particularly those sizes at the extreme ranges of the boots sizes the small and large NTN bindings can take. But I'd have to play with a few boots and the binding to test this theory.

    I did not try the touring mode but there is no reason with both bindings using the essentially same front pin system that they should be any real difference. But the beta version I was on also did not have the correct heel pieces and so there was a height difference between things that may have caused issues that will not be in the production version. I'll try and get hold of the Lynx again maybe after the lifts close and take it on tour.

    The step in for the Lynx is slightly simpler than the Meidjo to cock. It worked smoothly for me but Bruce commented the heel height issue noted above had given some users inconsistent results. Getting in and out of the binding is as simple as the Meidjo. But I am not running the brakes on my Meidjos this season preferring leashes which I have used for 20+ years. The Lynx did not have a brake system on it but I understand it will come.

    The front pins did all they were meant to do. On the beta the front of boot bars (white vertical elements in the pics) were broken, I assume these will be ally not plastic on production versions.

    There is no duck butt release on the Lynx which the Meidjo does offer with a rough un-certified alignment with DIN figures. For some this will be the important difference. I can say the Meidjo release has worked very well when required so far for me.

    The big plus for a lot of people will be the Lynx hole pattern is the standard 22 Designs 6 hole pattern, so you can upgrade from your Hammerhead to NTN Lynx and keep your old skis without swiss cheeseing them. Not that I'm frightened of that but for many it's an issue.

    The published weights for the Lynx have it lighter than my weigh of my Meidjos. But i do not trust published weight figures and we do not have these for the production version yet. But on the current information it would appear to be fair to say the Lynx and Meidjo will weigh near enough the same which is roughly 500g per binding. To go lighter is to go AT or into the kooky world of TTS or if you can find one the ATK Newmark neither of which offer the resort capability of the the Lynx or Meidjo.

    I ski my Meidjos in and out of resort. I understand where @Telemark Phat is coming from with his more tailored binding selections for in and out of resort but don't see the need for the additional gear and choices. And I often ski with skins in my pocket for a sneaky out of resort foray if the conditions and mood are right. Can't do that if you are on heavier resort gear. I would change tune if I did more (any) moguls and such.

    The test items were beta versions. 500 production items are expected to be available world wide come November. So if you do not have an order in now with a deposit paid you will not see a Lynx until sometime who knows when in 2019.

    It is expected to be better priced than the Meidjo which would not be hard. I suspect the M-Equipment do not really care about competition and pricing for a range of reasons. And anything out of Europe is at the mercy of the Euro which is expensive for oz dollars. But the issue will be availability.

    Every new binding has failures and upgrades. To some extent that is one of the reasons for the limited to 500 release to start with. But I expect the production version to be pretty solid and have a very low failure rate.

    To me the Lynx does ski really nicely, it is smooth, firm edge to edge, easy to get into, easy to get out of. Should be good on tour.

    But at the end of the day it is 2 years behind the Meidjo and does not have rear release. But it is the equal to ski, has a familiar hole pattern and should be better priced than the Meidjo.

    Edit, couple of spelling corrections & clarifications added.
     
    #25 skifree, Sep 26, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2018
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  26. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I am definitely a Freeride fan for inbounds, but they are way too clunky and heavy for touring. Nothing else gives me the same feel, so far, but I am happy to compromise more for touring. Yet to try the Meidjo, or Lynx. Had some interesting experiences on the Freedoms on Monday, they are OK, but not great.

    Thanks for the views so far.
     
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  27. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Hi TP, does your Bishop comment extend to the new BMF-R?

    Have to admit, I'm pretty keen on the BMF-R still - yes it's a heel system.

    Seems to tick most of the boxes though, lets me transition from my trusty 75mm SynerGs when able/needed, step in, active, brake option, spare plates for other skis. I hope it's good - maybe Backcountry will review this summer? Early reviews on US sites sound promising but not that numerous - yet.
     
  28. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I honestly don't see the point of them, nice bit of metal though.
     
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  29. skifree

    skifree grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    I should mention that Wilderness Sports has a small & a large Lynx mounted up on BD Link 95 skis for demo purposes. You pay a demo fee, ski the rig for a day.

    Being a touring oriented binding no reason not to do this even after the lifts close.

    The ski is a nice light responsive ski and will let you explore the full envelope of the binding.

    Normally the demo comes off your purchase should you place an order & buy the product.

    If you are thinking of the Lynx for next season it would be worth doing the demo now even if you want to see the Northern Hemisphere reviews prior to committing.

    Availability will be the big issue with Lynx thru to the NH 19/20 season.

    That said there should be 6 small & 6 large up for grabs in time for mounting prior to next NH season, that is in time for the next round of Japow & Utah goodness.
     
  30. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    Skis need pressure to turn and edge. Dostie picks up is rear heel rather than pressure the ball of his rear foot. To create pressure Dostie relies on the activity of the binding to create the pressure for him. You can see this in the video in the Lynx review from Telemark Skier (link above). His heel raises off the ski first and it takes a long time before the bellows of his boots start to compress. Before his bellows compress he doesn't have much control of the rear ski.
     
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  31. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    For the NTN version yes, the longer lever of a heel throw is less precise and responsive than the shorter lever required to connect to the duck butt. For the 75mm version its probably about as good as you'll get for skiing on 75mm (the old bishop was a great 75mm binding so the new one probably will be too).

    I don't like the new Bishop bindings because they hold the sport back. The longer 75mm stays around the longer it will be before there will be any innovation in Telemark Boots. Your Energies are a 20 year old design. My NTN boots are basically unchanged for 10 years. We won't see any new boots until 75mm dies.
     
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  32. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Appreciate your opinion TP.

    It may be simpler (better?) to make the quantum leap into NTN & Outlaws asap.
    Fwiw: demoing nice rocketed alpine boards & boots at Hotham.

    Great surfing the soft this weekend and enjoying the extra control & lack of toe pain but not ready to jump to the even darker side.
    Would settle for Decent NTN. ⛷
     
  33. telemarx

    telemarx A Local

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    Hmmm, I was contemplating dropping the coin on some BMF-R's to replace my old Bishops. Demo-ed some NTN boots with Outlaw-X bindings a couple of weeks ago & was pretty impressed. Decisions, decisions...
     
  34. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    I've raved elsewhere about my move to Outlaw Xs and TX Pros.
    It took only minutes to see the transition was going to be easy and half a day to have the eyes popped by the feel, stability and responsiveness.
     
  35. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    Wait until you switch to AT ;):fishing:!!
     
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  36. skifree

    skifree grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    And go backwards?
     
  37. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    Switch is cool bebe!
     
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  38. skifree

    skifree grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    On tele it’s cool, on training heels it’s 12 year old park rat.
     
  39. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    That’d be me, as the average rat only lives 2-3 years.
    Viva la geriatric!
     
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  40. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    AT? .... Ain't Telemark
     
  41. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    Production model getting ready to rock n roll in the US
     
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  42. montana_tele

    montana_tele First Runs

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    I recently had the pleasure of demoing the Bishop BMF-R in the NTN version. I have to say it was quite a pleasure for someone coming from 75 MM.

    I recently got into the NTN game and between new boots (TX Pro) and a new binding, outlaw-x, it completely killed my tele turns at first. Way too much effort required to get into the tele stance, requiring one to constantly ski very aggressively to get the tele stance. I then tried the Bishop w/ soft springs and on the lowest tension, and it gave me hope that one can do tele turns with NTN. Unfortunately the tour mode on the BMF-R gave me some trouble with freezing up so I ended up returning the demo.

    If I were to buy a new setup strictly for the area I would get the BMF-3 (no tour mode) in a 75mm version. The NTN is really good for parallel turns but simply can't match the ease of making tele turns that 75mm can. I'm at the point where I'm (omg) considering AT gear because tele has gotten away from its roots of light and cheap. Sure there's more power/control now, but the weight of the gear, and the lack of ROM (range of motion) is alarming not to mention the difficulty of doing tele turns.

    I haven't tried the Meijdo, but I'm hopeful that the Lynx will actually materialize and be durable. Doing tele turns with a tech toe is going to generate a lot of force. Currently, my boots are getting broken in and I'm skiing the outlaw-x on the zero setting (backed off a bit from 1). Yeah I can tele better now, but not like w/ 75mm. Unfortunately I find myself mostly doing alpine turns at which point one has to ask, is AT the way to go. It makes me sad to be in this position.
     
  43. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    If you don't mind me saying, give it more time and take a lesson.
     
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  44. montana_tele

    montana_tele First Runs

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    Thanks for the advice, it has gotten better with time but NTN is just not the same. While I'm not a perfect skier I have plenty of experience under my belt. NTN is more built for racers imo, I'm more of a freeride person, plus I like to get low at times which one can do w/ NTN but as stated earlier it requires a lot more effort to overcome the stiffness.
     
  45. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    It's taking you a lot more time.

    I went to that rig from Axls and T2Xs and it took me half an hour. For me it has more feel, stability and control, despite the softer flex of the boot. The difference can only be technique.
     
  46. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    IMO

    My first go on NTN didnt work because a)the boots were too stiff, and didnt fit all that well. b) I was a strongish skier, but basically self taught.

    My second go wasnt until after I had done my APSI L1 (after some other lessons, and telefests), and it took maybe an hour to feel utterly natural.
     
  47. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    I was an early adopter to NTN.
    I really questioned my decision until I turned down the cartridge tension to the lowest setting and then changed over to the softest cartridge.
    Loved it after then, way more control than 75mm.
    On AT now cos of an injury and need as much releasability as possible.
     
  48. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    NTN makes it easier (in fact pushes you) to be on the ball of the foot on the uphill ski which is what you need to control it, IME.

    If you're still trying to ski on your toes (which was my tendency) it'll feel odd. Unlearn it.
     
  49. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    And don’t try to lift your heel but push your tibia forward to drive the tongue of your rear boot.
     
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  50. skifree

    skifree grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Location:
    Middle Oz
    umm the forces are the same, and tech toe design and construction has 40 years of development behind it.

    Meidjo and Lynx feel very very similar, the biggest difference is the lack of release in the Lynx. Both are durable in my experience/close observation & testing.
     
    dossa5 likes this.