22 Designs Lynx NTN Binding

Ziggy

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And if the Lynx has the same hole pattern as Outlaws and Axls you can put them on Safeouts for reliable adjustable release.
 

skifree

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And if the Lynx has the same hole pattern as Outlaws and Axls you can put them on Safeouts for reliable adjustable release.

True the Lynx does have the same hole pattern as the previous 22 Designs bindings which for many is a big plus.

But why buy a lightweight / touring binding then make it heavy with another bit of kit to get release?

Probably the cost of Lynx (as forecast last Winter) + Safeouts = or > than Meidjo? Might be worth getting these figures together as part of any assessment.
 

Ziggy

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How attached are you to your knees?

SafeOuts keep me skiing. End of story.

Added:
If I'd done a grade 3 tear on the MCL last winter, instead of the grade 2, I'd be looking at a knee reco since that side doesn't have an ACL. How much does a reco cost?
 

telecrag

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True. So far I have been able to rely on my physical structure being stronger than my ski/binder/boot setup, so its always been kit that breaks (I have broken binders and boots, but never a ski, unless you include pulling the binder out). But I aint getting any younger.
 

Telemark Phat

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I recently had the pleasure of demoing the Bishop BMF-R in the NTN version. I have to say it was quite a pleasure for someone coming from 75 MM.

I recently got into the NTN game and between new boots (TX Pro) and a new binding, outlaw-x, it completely killed my tele turns at first. Way too much effort required to get into the tele stance, requiring one to constantly ski very aggressively to get the tele stance. I then tried the Bishop w/ soft springs and on the lowest tension, and it gave me hope that one can do tele turns with NTN. Unfortunately the tour mode on the BMF-R gave me some trouble with freezing up so I ended up returning the demo.

If I were to buy a new setup strictly for the area I would get the BMF-3 (no tour mode) in a 75mm version. The NTN is really good for parallel turns but simply can't match the ease of making tele turns that 75mm can. I'm at the point where I'm (omg) considering AT gear because tele has gotten away from its roots of light and cheap. Sure there's more power/control now, but the weight of the gear, and the lack of ROM (range of motion) is alarming not to mention the difficulty of doing tele turns.

I haven't tried the Meijdo, but I'm hopeful that the Lynx will actually materialize and be durable. Doing tele turns with a tech toe is going to generate a lot of force. Currently, my boots are getting broken in and I'm skiing the outlaw-x on the zero setting (backed off a bit from 1). Yeah I can tele better now, but not like w/ 75mm. Unfortunately I find myself mostly doing alpine turns at which point one has to ask, is AT the way to go. It makes me sad to be in this position.
As aluded to by @Untele-whippet the problem your experiencing is due to a technique issue. Rather than picking your heel up you should be pushing your shin down to break the bellows of your boots. By adopting that change in technique you'll not only ski better on your new gear, but you'll telemark better on every variety of equipment.

Like @Ziggy I'd recommend a lesson. Where do you normally ski? I can recommend someone to book who will help you with your tele turns on all equipment.
 

skifree

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How attached are you to your knees?

SafeOuts keep me skiing. End of story.

Added:
If I'd done a grade 3 tear on the MCL last winter, instead of the grade 2, I'd be looking at a knee reco since that side doesn't have an ACL. How much does a reco cost?

I do value my and others knees a lot, hence mentioning Meidjo release compared to Lynx no release often.
 
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montana_tele

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umm the forces are the same, and tech toe design and construction has 40 years of development behind it.

Meidjo and Lynx feel very very similar, the biggest difference is the lack of release in the Lynx. Both are durable in my experience/close observation & testing.

I agree the low tech toe has been around and tested since 1985, but that has been for fixed heel contraptions. The very reason the Lynx has been delayed by two months now is their early tech toe was not standing up to the force of the free heel binding. The forces produced with a fix heel versus a free heel binding are definitely not the same, why do you think BD does not recommend tele bindings on their Helio ski series?
 

telecrag

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I agree the low tech toe has been around and tested since 1985, but that has been for fixed heel contraptions. The very reason the Lynx has been delayed by two months now is their early tech toe was not standing up to the force of the free heel binding. The forces produced with a fix heel versus a free heel binding are definitely not the same, why do you think BD does not recommend tele bindings on their Helio ski series?

Agree, the forces are different. Didn't know about the Helio, thought they probably want to sell more ATK's. They say a tele binder voids warranty!
 

telecrag

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hmmm. Im still a Freeride fanboi, not sure what I want to do for touring. Longer I wait, more chance for something better!

I note Dostie doesnt mention clicking the toe out of tour for skiing, that cant be good?
 

dossa5

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Skis need pressure to turn and edge. Dostie picks up is rear heel rather than pressure the ball of his rear foot. To create pressure Dostie relies on the activity of the binding to create the pressure for him. You can see this in the video in the Lynx review from Telemark Skier (link above). His heel raises off the ski first and it takes a long time before the bellows of his boots start to compress. Before his bellows compress he doesn't have much control of the rear ski.
Agree needs bump lesson before he reviews
 

skifree

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I note Dostie doesnt mention clicking the toe out of tour for skiing, that cant be good?

Just forgotten to mention it I'm guessing.

Noting that on some (OK actually very rarely but I have done it) lines I actually lock the Meidjo's toe into tour mode prior to pointing the skis downhill to avoid possible toe release when I reckon that keeping the ski on is the lesser of the evils of an unwanted release.
 
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Boodwah

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Lightweight touring rig that wont break in the middle of nowhere, touch wood.
Going for a solid tour this Sunday, am going to spend an hour in the shed tomorrow trying to work out how I can shave some weight off the TX Pros after my attempts at making a Frankenboot failed.
IMG_4733.jpg
 

telecrag

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The shells are not that heavy, try losing the inners and wear two pairs of sox!
 
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Goski

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The shells are not that heavy, try losing the inners and wear two pairs of sox!
And cut some holes in the socks, offset between the two pairs and trim toenails and shave the lower legs. Might all add up to another 20 grams per foot.
 
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Goski

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Lightweight touring rig that wont break in the middle of nowhere, touch wood.
Going for a solid tour this Sunday, am going to spend an hour in the shed tomorrow trying to work out how I can shave some weight off the TX Pros after my attempts at making a Frankenboot failed.
IMG_4733.jpg
Mmmm...pretty nice looking rig.
 

snowgum

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Mmmm...pretty nice looking rig.

Indeed matches my TX Pros! Notice!

However, if saving weight is the main objective, I wonder if my trusty Excursions, Voile release and either Hardwire CRB or Rotti Cobra R8s would achieve the same ability and turning performance for approx same total weight. I note my Excos are 500g boot lighter than TX Pros.

As for others? Now if only Volie would make another run of CRB Hardwires for frustrated tourers with ageing 75 mm boots?
 

Telemark Phat

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Indeed matches my TX Pros! Notice!

However, if saving weight is the main objective, I wonder if my trusty Excursions, Voile release and either Hardwire CRB or Rotti Cobra R8s would achieve the same ability and turning performance for approx same total weight. I note my Excos are 500g boot lighter than TX Pros.

As for others? Now if only Volie would make another run of CRB Hardwires for frustrated tourers with ageing 75 mm boots?
No where even vaguely near the same turning performance. We won't get light boots until 75mm dies.
 
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snowgum

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No where even vaguely near the same turning performance. We won't get light boots until 75mm dies.

Mmm interesting, my Excursions are 11 years old - are used 3 days year (more days on lifts these days) and look as though they’ll last another 11! So not much incentive to change unless a fabulous 1.2/3 kg ntn boot arrives!
 
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zac150

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Not I, I was doing the downhill skils day of the Nordic Level 3 Instructors course though. Two guys in dark colours and a small woman in a green jacket?

Not sure, I think I saw them in the carpark but not on the hill. I saw the wilderness sports guys as well
 

skifree

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Whats with all the weight concerns. NTN is all light gear these days with the exception of rotte frame bindings
Purposely didnt mention old school 75mm
You’ve weighed an Outlaw?
 

snowgum

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I wish I xc skied enough to worry about the weight of my gear. It's very hard to rave on about half a kilo here and when I'm not actually moving this hypothetical mass.

Please forgive my slight tangent:
This comment is more a human behavioural observation than just a ski gear analysis.

From my demographic (Uni mid-late 80s), most of the keen skiers have progressed too lifted telemarking where weight can be an advantage. They might dabble in a bit of skating and do the Hoppet but the days of touring 15-20 kms per day climbing & descending Stirling, Gwinear, Mt Loch, high plains and Kosi on 'heavy' 75mm gear and big plastic boots have long gone.

The previously keen day-tourers (most to gain from light gear) have largely been consumed by domesticated, mortgaged bliss (or otherwise). I don't see the bulk of this group driving boot/binding revolution - sorry to say! They'll hang on to their old leather boots & 3 pins forever!

Demand for lightness will mostly come from grads and the like (SINKs & DINKs) freshly cashed up with jobs and no mortgage (yet). Still enthused by the sport. So it's a fairly narrow demographic in a sport that's very small by Aussie standards - obviously it's much bigger in Nth America and Europe - they'll drive things!

It must be hard for Scarpa, Crispi and 'Scott'? To justify R&D expense on a new super light NTN boot and matching binding (accepted The Lynx and the Meidjo bindings are a start) when the payback is measured over many years. I think Telephat's comments are quite right - wait for 75mm gear to die then strike.

The world economy is not exactly rocketing either - reducing R&D. Skier growth is mostly flat too. And climate change makes the ski sector nervous.

One more observation. I understand Crispi do a lighter weight 3-buckle NTN boot that looks more touring focussed but it appears our market is too small to receive this model. This is a shame, maybe us tourers should agitate at respective stores for access to such a beast. Not everyone needs EVOs and TX Pros.

An interesting and ongoing conundrum.....
 
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telecrag

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I have kept one lighter touring 75mm setup. Its likely I will never use it, other than a nostalgia trip in the Brindies, but even then....

75 is dead. Like 26 inch wheels.They will still exist, like a combustion engine, for the odd enthusiast. But at some point they will stop making new ones.
 
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Ziggy

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From memory Crispi has produced a prototype carbon or carbon mix NTN boot.
Re the market...
75mm looks to me to be all sales and no more R&D, existing devt costs have been covered, so there's more profit per unit.
And the biggest growth in sales in Aus is in AT gear, among people transitioning from alpine.
There's also split board growth.
So the picture is one of diversification.
 
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Untele-whippet

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From memory Crispi has produced a prototype carbon or carbon mix NTN boot.
Re the market...
75mm looks to me to be all sales and no more R&D, existing devt costs have been covered, so there's more profit per unit.
And the biggest growth in sales in Aus is in AT gear, among people transitioning from alpine.
There's also split board growth.
So the picture is one of diversification.
Snow shoers!
Don’t forget snow shoers.



OK..............
Maybe best to forget them........
 

Ziggy

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Heheh.
Well, there's new boot and binding designs, and base grip tech, in nordic skiing (skating or classic).
They're not really BC skiers though some are seen scooting over the High Plains. Disgustingly fit.
 

Telemark Phat

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Mmm interesting, my Excursions are 11 years old - are used 3 days year (more days on lifts these days) and look as though they’ll last another 11! So not much incentive to change unless a fabulous 1.2/3 kg ntn boot arrives!
Excursions are great for their niche, but that niche doesn't include turning performance.
 

snowgum

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Heheh.
Well, there's new boot and binding designs, and base grip tech, in nordic skiing (skating or classic).
They're not really BC skiers though some are seen scooting over the High Plains. Disgustingly fit.

There's the whole NNNBC thing at Lake Mtn and all the flatter areas too. Have tried it for free at LM (Fischer booth)

The combi boot seemed not a bad compromise - who wants a dedicated skate boot for 10 mins skating per day??

Re: bigger picture, we shouldn't ignore the fair sized NNNBC market here. But I don't see it as much use for medium to heavy touring, ungoomed trails and certainly not alpine country, with full ice and sastrugi etc... or a pack?

It's all very reliant on a resort and good quality GROOMED trails which according to this forum, are heading south in quality and reliability - at least in Victoria. Not sure what Parks & Perisher are doing in NSW? Perhaps XC taking up too many parking spots? Like the snow-play /tobogganers?

So yes it's a very polarised non-lift market with (steadily - NSW?) increasing AT & splitboard, v slow NTN uptake, a modest but static (slowly declining) 75mm market in the middle and a fairly large NNBC (flat or v slow increase?) market.

Plus a smallish but devout group of skaters (NNN & Soloman - the latter to end soon?)
Oh and yes snowshoers!

Good grief who'd want to spend good R&D $ on this fragmented rabble - with increasingly dodgy snowpacks??
 

zac150

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There's the whole NNNBC thing at Lake Mtn and all the flatter areas too. Have tried it for free at LM (Fischer booth)

The combi boot seemed not a bad compromise - who wants a dedicated skate boot for 10 mins skating per day??

Re: bigger picture, we shouldn't ignore the fair sized NNNBC market here. But I don't see it as much use for medium to heavy touring, ungoomed trails and certainly not alpine country, with full ice and sastrugi etc... or a pack?

It's all very reliant on a resort and good quality GROOMED trails which according to this forum, are heading south in quality and reliability - at least in Victoria. Not sure what Parks & Perisher are doing in NSW? Perhaps XC taking up too many parking spots? Like the snow-play /tobogganers?

So yes it's a very polarised non-lift market with (steadily - NSW?) increasing AT & splitboard, v slow NTN uptake, a modest but static (slowly declining) 75mm market in the middle and a fairly large NNBC (flat or v slow increase?) market.

Plus a smallish but devout group of skaters (NNN & Soloman - the latter to end soon?)
Oh and yes snowshoers!

Good grief who'd want to spend good R&D $ on this fragmented rabble - with increasingly dodgy snowpacks??

Nnnbc are snowshoes in disguise
 

snowgum

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Excursions are great for their niche, but that niche doesn't include turning performance.

Maybe not. But it's often been my choice (over Synergy) when wait is a factor - like kicker skinning up Stirling or a lazy half day to Nelse for dome greedy-blue turns. (This is pre this years NTN /Rusteler9/OutlawX/TXPro addition)

The Ex's were even 'OK' on Spring slush in Scotland a few years back - when weight/bulk is a big factor through airports & while skiing. In fact I survived OK on Nevis Range lists and a cruise day tour around the Cairngorms. I admit I did miss my Synegies on the lifts but for just 1 day out of 30 days OS, they served their purpose.
 

Ziggy

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NNNBC are the Subaru of bindings. Light and nimble, but 65-70mm underfoot is about their limit.
I've done lots of day and overnight tours with them and they're easy to live with.
 

Goski

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I wish I xc skied enough to worry about the weight of my gear. It's very hard to rave on about half a kilo here and when I'm not actually moving this hypothetical mass.

Please forgive my slight tangent:
This comment is more a human behavioural observation than just a ski gear analysis.

From my demographic (Uni mid-late 80s), most of the keen skiers have progressed too lifted telemarking where weight can be an advantage. They might dabble in a bit of skating and do the Hoppet but the days of touring 15-20 kms per day climbing & descending Stirling, Gwinear, Mt Loch, high plains and Kosi on 'heavy' 75mm gear and big plastic boots have long gone.

The previously keen day-tourers (most to gain from light gear) have largely been consumed by domesticated, mortgaged bliss (or otherwise). I don't see the bulk of this group driving boot/binding revolution - sorry to say! They'll hang on to their old leather boots & 3 pins forever!

Demand for lightness will mostly come from grads and the like (SINKs & DINKs) freshly cashed up with jobs and no mortgage (yet). Still enthused by the sport. So it's a fairly narrow demographic in a sport that's very small by Aussie standards - obviously it's much bigger in Nth America and Europe - they'll drive things!

It must be hard for Scarpa, Crispi and 'Scott'? To justify R&D expense on a new super light NTN boot and matching binding (accepted The Lynx and the Meidjo bindings are a start) when the payback is measured over many years. I think Telephat's comments are quite right - wait for 75mm gear to die then strike.

The world economy is not exactly rocketing either - reducing R&D. Skier growth is mostly flat too. And climate change makes the ski sector nervous.

One more observation. I understand Crispi do a lighter weight 3-buckle NTN boot that looks more touring focussed but it appears our market is too small to receive this model. This is a shame, maybe us tourers should agitate at respective stores for access to such a beast. Not everyone needs EVOs and TX Pros.

An interesting and ongoing conundrum.....
Link to the lighter 3 buckle boot.
200 grams lighter than Crispi's EVO NTN or World Cup NTN boots
https://crispi.it/en/343/shiver-ntn/47/snow/55/telemark/1001/aloe-green
 
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Ziggy

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So about as much control as a nnnbc......
Sorry, that's bilge.
Got as much control as T3s and Riva Z's - which was the rig I changed to - on the touring skis of the era.
And anyone calling them snowshoes hasn't used them.
Snowgum, we are talking about the BC version.
 
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