22 Designs Lynx NTN Binding

[zac150]

Sorry, that's bilge.
Got as much control as T3s and Riva Z's - which was the rig I changed to - on the touring skis of the era.
And anyone calling them snowshoes hasn't used them.
Snowgum, we are talking about the BC version.

Engineering disagrees, sorry.

NNNbc do not overlap the ski making them harder to get on edge, not saying impossible just harder. The bar in the boot is never a tight fit in the binding so the first movement to edge is wasted. Reality is if they went down fine, Olympic courses would have actual hills on them.

The riva etc solved some of these issue with a tighter fit giving a little more edge control. Sure like them for what they were great for going forward, but cable bindings defiantly improved going down.

 

[rowdyflat]

Hey Ziggy watch your words I have been using T4 s , Riva Z + Karhu Guides for a few years on the BHP , I think its a great compromise for winter conditions.
A bit tempted to try something like the
Svartisen GTX® 75mm at 1020 g it doesnt say what size.
BTW this Tuesday 30th is looking like a nice touring day at Falls , 2 of us are going, anyone want to meet up?

 

[Goski]

Link to the lighter Crispi NTN 3 buckle boot.
200 grams lighter per boot than Crispi's EVO NTN or World Cup NTN boots. Comes in white and aloe green or white and yellow.
https://crispi.it/en/343/shiver-ntn/47/snow/55/telemark/1001/aloe-green

 

[rowdyflat]

Nice little telemark video also on that site.

 

[Ziggy]

Engineering disagrees, sorry.

NNNbc do not overlap the ski making them harder to get on edge, not saying impossible just harder. The bar in the boot is never a tight fit in the binding so the first movement to edge is wasted. Reality is if they went down fine, Olympic courses would have actual hills on them.

The riva etc solved some of these issue with a tighter fit giving a little more edge control. Sure like them for what they were great for going forward, but cable bindings defiantly improved going down.

You're mixing up the binding and the boot. Talking about engineering.

The bigger variable than the clamp is the torsional rigidity of the boot. See the Glittertind or the Svartisen, not a clapped out rental.

Added:

And you're ignoring the sole ribs.

 

[Ziggy]

Hey Ziggy watch your words I have been using T4 s , Riva Z + Karhu Guides for a few years on the BHP , I think its a great compromise for winter conditions.
A bit tempted to try something like the
Svartisen GTX® 75mm at 1020 g it doesnt say what size.
BTW this Tuesday 30th is looking like a nice touring day at Falls , 2 of us are going, anyone want to meet up?

Thanks, normally yes but I'm in the big smoke for a few days.

As posted elsewhere I've started using the Svartisen NNNBC on Epochs. Sweet rig for scooting over the plains.

 

[Goski]

Nice little telemark video also on that site.

Here is the link to what I agree is a nice video. Looks like Outlaw X binding at 0:09 seconds.

 

[rowdyflat]

How is the fit and the rigidity / control of the Svartisen considering its NNNBC?

 

[zac150]

You're mixing up the binding and the boot. Talking about engineering.

The bigger variable than the clamp is the torsional rigidity of the boot. See the Glittertind or the Svartisen, not a clapped out rental.

Added:

And you're ignoring the sole ribs.

Will have to agree to disagree, I’ve been on nnnbc, riva’s, chillis, hammerhead’s, o2’s and ntn and I can say to two best ski days of my life we’re getting rid of the nnnbc and shifting to ntn.

 

[telecrag]

I went from 3 pin to NNNBC, and thought it was awesome. But then I went to cables, etc etc. The NNNBC was pretty good for kick and glide, but IMO that was about it. Which is fair enough, yes you can turn on Nordic gear, but Telemark is an entirely (though related) seperate discipline IMO. It is not xc.

 

[DPS Driver]

Lightweight touring rig that wont break in the middle of nowhere, touch wood.
Going for a solid tour this Sunday, am going to spend an hour in the shed tomorrow trying to work out how I can shave some weight off the TX Pros after my attempts at making a Frankenboot failed.

Can you make it a power strap, two buckle boot?

 

[Goski]

Can you make it a power strap, two buckle boot?

The bottom buckle could go at least if the boot tongue fit well enough to keep snow out. Don't know why so many boots have the lower instep buckle. Seems like overkill for the job of sealing the boot. I muse that a lightweight silicone rand under the tounge would do that job for less weight.

 

[Ziggy]

How is the fit and the rigidity / control of the Svartisen considering its NNNBC?

https://www.ski.com.au/xf/threads/crispi-svartissen-nnn-bc-boots.85238/
There's a limit to the ski size you can control.
Out of interest last winter I put Glittertind boots and NNNBC on Fischer S-Bound 112 (79mm underfoot) and no.
Epochs yes, with the Svartisen.
The big variable as mentioned is the leverage the boot offers.
I bought an ancient pair of ex rental Outbounds last winter and there's no play in the NNNBC clamp.

 

[Ziggy]

Will have to agree to disagree, I’ve been on nnnbc, riva’s, chillis, hammerhead’s, o2’s and ntn and I can say to two best ski days of my life we’re getting rid of the nnnbc and shifting to ntn.

Sorry again but this is meaningless without specifying the ski combos and applications.
If you're talking about a quiver of one it'll have strengths and tradeoffs that you could live with but another skier would reject.
And the big change since I started skiing is that few dedicated skiers have a quiver of one any more. We get horses for courses.

 

[zac150]

Sorry again but this is meaningless without specifying the ski combos and applications.
If you're talking about a quiver of one it'll have strengths and tradeoffs that you could live with but another skier would reject.
And the big change since I started skiing is that few dedicated skiers have a quiver of one any more. We get horses for courses.

I don’t see how it is meaningless, nnnbc are designed for skating not turning. I get you like them but accept they have limitations.

I love my freedom, yep I tour on them but I accept they have limits

 

[Ziggy]

If you want a binding designed for skating you'd opt for something like a Salomon Pilot.
The BC in NNNBC stands for back country - it's a touring version of the general purpose New Nordic Norm, having a wider baseplate that would overlap a skate ski.

 

[rowdyflat]

When I can only carry 1 pair of boots to Charlottes and snow is soft no probs w T4s + 92mm waist ski.
Ziggy Just wondering how you think the Svartisen 75mm .w. a Guide 78 mm waist would be in softish stuff.??

 

[Ziggy]

All I can say is that for me the NNNBC version is good for up to 70mm waist when there's icy downhill traverses or I want to edge for turns.

 

[skifree]

When I can only carry 1 pair of boots to Charlottes and snow is soft no probs w T4s + 92mm waist ski.
Ziggy Just wondering how you think the Svartisen 75mm .w. a Guide 78 mm waist would be in softish stuff.??

Pretty close to rubbish on any sort of down in soft.

 

[rowdyflat]

Nah my point is that soft snow is easy to edge and would take T4 if its deeper so weaker boots should be OK on a day trip , ice/firm would be the enemy ? .

 

[skifree]

Nah my point is that soft snow is easy to edge and would take T4 if its deeper so weaker boots should be OK on a day trip , ice/firm would be the enemy ? .

I wouldn’t do it, I’ve done my time on skinny sticks & crap boots & bindings designed for semi prepared trails, this is the wording in the wholesale catadog for NNNBC. The Euros really shake their heads when we talk about K to K type conditions for NNNBC use.

 

[Ziggy]

When I can only carry 1 pair of boots to Charlottes and snow is soft no probs w T4s + 92mm waist ski.
Ziggy Just wondering how you think the Svartisen 75mm .w. a Guide 78 mm waist would be in softish stuff.??

Only been to Charlottes once on the oversnow. Quite a few folk exceeded the luggage limit without consequence.
Depends on the time of course but it stays firmer there than at most other side country.
As a rule of thumb if I don't know what to expect I'd take the heavier gear.

 

[skifree]

As a rule of thumb if I don't know what to expect I'd take the heavier gear

 

[snowgum]

Only been to Charlottes once on the oversnow. Quite a few folk exceeded the luggage limit without consequence.
Depends on the time of course but it stays firmer there than at most other side country.
As a rule of thumb if I don't know what to expect I'd take the heavier gear.

Good plan Ziggy, more or less my philosophy for touring.

Far better to make it down perhaps with tired legs than to reach the limit of the equipment and be making survival snowplows. Or worse!

 

[skifree]

Go here for weight of first production Lynx.

https://www.ski.com.au/xf/threads/the-bc-chatter-thread.47700/page-290#post-3983380

 

[Boodwah]

First weekend out on new Lynx.
They’re fantastic, ski like the Meijo but just seem ten tonnes more burley.
Same weight but just feel more robust.
Stepping in to them is a dream compared to the Meijo. And easier to press in to tour mode.
Transitions probably faster than your average AT setup, but similar to Meijo.
Mostly just touring last few days so will comment again once I’ve skied en piste and done some big lines.

 

[Boodwah]

They’re awesome en piste too.
Very solid, with great lead to lead.
Even with ice and chunky snow underfoot they remain a breeze to step in to.

 

[buckwheat]

Do you just step in and ski or do you tighten the tech toe?
I love mine but i do find the toe loose upon first step in, the pins aren't super tight.

 

[skifree]

Do you just step in and ski or do you tighten the tech toe?
I love mine but i do find the toe loose upon first step in, the pins aren't super tight.

Tech pin toes should all be exactly the same in their dimensions once closed, likewise the boots are all meant to have the cups precisely the same.

So it’s a concern yours feel loose.

Are the boots new?

 

[buckwheat]

Tx pros, 3rd season. Inspected them properly the other night, nothing obvious. My dynafits on my tts setup are way snappier on the click in. Not a super big deal, the lynx is still my preferred binding over my 2 generations of outlaws. But still love to get them perfect!

 

[Boodwah]

Haven’t had to tighten them at all when not touring, bomber solid and have really pushed them.

 

[skifree]

If you figure any way to adjust pins let us know. As far as i can see pins are typically all as per factory with no adjustment possible. Would love to be corrected.

There are I think 4 folks here who are looking to adjust their pin set due to over centre pivot point not being correct.

 

[buckwheat]

Got my vernier on.

My dynafits click to 51mm (pin to pin) on first click. Lifting the lock lever doesnt seem to bring them closer.

My lynx click to 54mm and 55mm (l and r are different) on first click, then tighten to an eventual 53mm when the lever is raised.

So appears that the tech toe standard is not too standard? Anyone else care to provide some comparison results?

 

[skifree]

Lifting the lock lever doesnt seem to bring them closer

It's not meant to as far as i know, it simply a mechanical block to stop the spring arms from moving from the up (closed) position to the down (open) position. But I'm only beginner with tech toes so correct me if i'm wrong.

No vernier but will get out the steel rule and some bindings for a look see after arvo smoko.

 

[skifree]

My dynafits click to 51mm (pin to pin) on first click. Lifting the lock lever doesnt seem to bring them closer.

My lynx click to 54mm and 55mm (l and r are different) on first click, then tighten to an eventual 53mm when the lever is raised.

A real rough measure is my two Meidjo's closed are 56 point of pin to point of pin.

And the ATK Newmark is a fair bit less, more like 51 point to point.

I suspect we should measure from the start of the cone, anyone know more? @Telemark Phat

I'll have to drop by the workshop and do the measures proper like with a vernier, it proved more difficult than I thought to be accurate with the rule.

 

[skifree]

Some interesting reading here.

They note there is no standard for the tech pin binding or compatible boots.

Dims are provided for their sample boots but not that I could tease out for their bindings.

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-319-52755-0_6

 

[skifree]

My lynx click to 54mm and 55mm (l and r are different) on first click, then tighten to an eventual 53mm when the lever is raised.

Contact 22 Designs and ask them what it should be

 

[buckwheat]

Was thinking the same thing! Stay tuned

 

[skifree]

The study linked indicates the dimension in the boot cones is consistently 58.

I suspect these were all alpine boots. But that should not make a difference.

 

[buckwheat]

My mates meidjos were measured at 53mm pin point to pin point. Maybe difference between vernier and rule?

Have emailed 22 designs with questions!

Interestingly my boot cones are 61mm apart, my wifes dh boots are 60.5mm apart. A fair difference from that study?!?!

 

[skifree]

My mates meidjos were measured at 53mm pin point to pin point. Maybe difference between vernier and rule?

Have emailed 22 designs with questions!

Interestingly my boot cones are 61mm apart, my wifes dh boots are 60.5mm apart. A fair difference from that study?!?!

The 58 in the study is the the bottom of the inverted cone in the boots,

Where is your boot dim taken?

Telemark Pyrenees tells me dim point to point (well that’s what i asked for, their answer could be read alternatively but think it’s just a language thing) on the Meidjo is 54.

 

[skifree]

So this is a brand new Meidjo 2.1 fresh out of the box. Pin tip to pin tip is near enough to 54.

I measured my two pairs of Meidjo 2.0s, well used (abused) and they were near enough to 56.

This is current production Lynx fresh out of the box, pin tip to pin tip near enough to 56.

I also measured the two Beta model Lynxs in the WS demo fleet and they were near enough to 56 pin tip to pin tip.

Also measured my ATK Newmarks and they were a tight 54 pin tip to pin tip.

Thanks to Wilderness Sports for the loan of the measure device and access to bindings. They have a large and a small in demo for the Lynx and the Meidjo 2.1 on pretty nice BD skis.

 

[Goski]

Is the hole pattern for Lynx the standard 22 Designs 6 hole pattern a la Outlaws?

 

[skifree]

Is the hole pattern for Lynx the standard 22 Designs 6 hole pattern a la Outlaws?

Yes.

 

[Goski]

Is the hole pattern for Lynx the standard 22 Designs 6 hole pattern a la Outlaws?

Yes it does....of course....see the linked review.
6 holes vs 13 for Meidjos is a big plus for me. Much easier to mount and then swap to other skis with inserts. If I like the way Lynx bindings skis on lower spring tension the separated release capabilty of the Meidjos is less of an advantage over.what looks like a sturdier 22 designs offering.
https://www.gearx.com/blog/2019/03/21/22-designs-lynx-tele-binding-review/

 

[skifree]

Yes it does....of course....see the linked review.
6 holes vs 13 for Meidjos is a big plus for me. Much easier to mount and then swap to other skis with inserts. If I like the way Lynx bindings skis on lower spring tension the separated release capabilty of the Meidjos is less of an advantage over.what looks like a sturdier 22 designs offering.
https://www.gearx.com/blog/2019/03/21/22-designs-lynx-tele-binding-review/

The pedant in me has to correct the 6 threads for the Lynx to 8. The 13 for the Meidjo includes the heel piece.

They ski the same, they both have adjustable spring tensions.

But if you’re swapping from another 22 Design product with the same hole layout it makes a lot of sense to use the Lynx if you’re not fussed by release.

 

[Goski]

The pedant in me has to correct the 6 threads for the Lynx to 8. The 13 for the Meidjo includes the heel piece.

They ski the same, they both have adjustable spring tensions.

But if you’re swapping from another 22 Design product with the same hole layout it makes a lot of sense to use the Lynx if you’re not fussed by release.

Don't mind some pedancy....or is it pedanticness?
8 holes is still 5 less than 13. I do like having some release. Ideally I'll demo both bindings and the Lynx at its lower end of spring tension.

 

[skifree]

Ideally I'll demo both

Actually possible.

 

[Goski]

Yes.

Thanks. I crossed posts with you after deciding to not be lazy and find out myself. I do appreciate that 2w Designs kerp their pattern across their bindings and it removes a disincentive for 22 Designs 75mm users who love their current skis to change to NTN.

 

[Goski]

Actually possible.

A trip across the border to Wilderness Sports is the answer or perhaps there may be some to demo at the upcoming Backcountry Festival at Hotham Sept 7-8.