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Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by Total Whiteout, Apr 6, 2020.
I think there's a little bit of Button Man in all of us!
I also hope Carol and Russel are somehow found alive and well.
I don't think it is highly likely that they will be found. The same can be said about that chap who vanished after sending a message from Mac. Springs and left his car near the Upper Jamieson Hut.
Only if they staged their own disappearance but get sick of each other.
I Tend to agree unless they died within a couple of metres of a track? unlikely?
This run of coincidences is starting to trouble me. Yes I read the Age article. Yes I see too many NCIS/CSI style cop shows.
But it’s starting to look a bit like a cluster. And there’s a police saying about multiple coincidences.
what’s that 5-6 cases in what, 5 years? It makes we wonder.
It’s a bit spooky, Having camped in the Wonangatta valley, Lovic/Billies/Howitt/ Stirling area.
I’ve always been pretty comfortable when skiing/walking/car camping these areas, knowing it’s the bush, the elements like weather, and any self-inabilities I needed to overcome to survive.
...To me it’s a totally different ball game if some nutter is on the loose?
(I saw the movie ‘Misery’ too with James Caan, one cannot Just unsee these things!).
I bush walk up that way , often solo , every Green season and ski at Mt. Stirling. You are spooking me now !
Sorry for that T. I’m Probably wrong but it’s pretty creepy - especially the last incident. Too people missing, burnt camp area. I don’t like this.
FWIW: my Mum is a ‘old East Gippslander’ so well connected with her EG mates. Apparently Russel was well known and respected in EG. It was EG people who found the camp. His absence has really upset the EG community - as it would!
Given the size, Terrain complexity and relative isolation of the area, I don’t see this latest episode being resolved anytime soon. Hope I’m wrong!
Time to put in some hidden remote cameras at strategic junctures in that whole area?...record whats going on!?
Is that not somehow invading the privacy of many who are doing nothing wrong? It is a rhetorical question. It is unlawful for that reason unless placed by virtue of a warrant. We also know that yowies do not photograph well. All pictures of them come out blurred for some reason. Pointless exercise since we all know a yowie is responsible.
If you don't catch the Button Man you might be in with a chance for a Yowie or a mainland thylacine!
You have no reasonable expectation of privacy in a public place. This is the reason that paparazzi photos are allowed.
Without getting deep into a legal argument there is a big difference between a person overtly taking a picture and setting up a camera to covertly take a picture. One big difference is the overt picture is taken by a person, even if that person is hiding. To set up a covert camera you must have permission from the land owner/manager and in this case it would be Parks or DELWP. For Parks to set up a covert camera to catch people doing the wrong thing they also need a warrant. Same with Police. If a private citizen sets up a covert camera on land which they do not own and without permission then you commit an offence. You can trust me on this or do the legal research as I have done. It comes under the Surveillance Devices Act. Some reading here https://techsafety.org.au/blog/legal_articles/legal-guide-to-surveillance-legislation-in-vic/ and here https://www.alrc.gov.au/publication...g-people/taking-photographs-and-other-images/
Now you could argue people walking along a track may not fall into what is classified as a private activity but what if that person decides to go to the toilet in front of the hidden camera. Happy to discuss more in a PM if you would like a friendly debate.
Hmmm...there seems to be some subject matter expertise in the room...i am not an expert...my skill is in asking questions...here's some...what about wildlife researchers who set up cams to record wildlife? Do they need permits, permission etc? Camera set up could be done by the police...do they need special permission? Given the proposition we are considering, we could expect that all non-Button Man ("interesting") camera footage, once reviewed, would be destroyed to protect privacy. Does the right to privacy exist on King Billy saddle? Would i care if i found out after the fact, that my whole experience at the saddle back in 2018, with that bloke had been caught on camera?...prob not if it ended up leading to the arrest of a dangerous person. Please note i am not suggesting that anyone i have met has done anything criminal...just working the camera scenario.
I seriously doubt that any of the deer hunters/stalkers I know get written permission to set up their game cameras, and there are a lot of game cameras out there. I would guess that the scientists working on pest management etc get written permission but there are not that many of them
Just get your GoPro to live stream to cloud storage so next of kin can see what's going on/happened!
Where these two went missing from would be lucky to have 1/10th of a bar of 1G mobile coverage.
How much does satellite internet cost?
Technically yes. What actually happens is not this side bar.
To set up a covert camera for surveillance Police need a warrant.
By law it has to be destroyed by the person viewing and not sent to anyone else. This goes for overt and covert camera footage. The suggestion here is the Button man is guilty of some offence other than being eccentric or weird. Police have spoken to him as was reported.
But some might. In fact many might be affronted. That is why authorities apply to a judge for a warrant. The reason must be valid enough to warrant the breach of privacy. All covert cameras must be monitored on a regular basis and a report submitted once the warrant expires. When the warrant expires the cameras have to be removed. I don't see enough evidence to suggest random covert cameras all over the area of interest will be helpful and being curious about the habits of a hermit is not really enough. The Button man could in fact be watching when the cameras were put in.
But without a warrant or lawful cause to place the camera then the evidence cannot be accepted in court so it is worthless.
I would suggest you are correct. Nonetheless they commit an offence. Does it really matter? Perhaps only if you get caught? It is a matter of perspective. Some may think it harmless until it is their privacy infringed.
Perhaps things are getting a bit carried away now. How much latitude does this thread have?
Howitt Plains like the Deni Ute muster this weekend - lots of people hiking between Howitt car park and the summit. Lots of traffic on King Billy Track and people camping all over. No doubt same on the Bluff.
If there’s anything unusual to be seen close to a track or road it would have been by now.
Most access roads to Bluff, Howitt, Wonangatta will be seasonally closed after tomorrow.
Xplora, mate... what happens on paper and what happens in the real world are entirely different things.
80% of people don't know, 85% don't care and 90% of people can't afford a lawyer, (either sort, a bush lawyer or the sort that has actually passed an LLB.). So what some drone bureaucrat puts on a web page has absolutely no effect on what most people do and the way they behave in the real world.
I understand all that perfectly. Just providing facts. Not intended to tell people what they should or should not do. It was an impartial, no judgement post. Knowing the facts is the best way to stay out of trouble. I always encourage people to do their own research and not rely on what some random on a forum says is true. And you would be surprised how often those in the 'real world' go running to that 'paper' for protection when it hits the fan. Nobody (85%) really cares until then. The other 15% have some information and resource to chase up if they want.
Yeah, perhaps I could have worded that better, but it looked like you were spending a bit too much time checking on the technicalities when in the bush those things don't matter so much.
BTW. My choice of words may have been influenced by the fact that I had just watched The Big Lebowski for the first time ever (20 years after I should have watched it), so I might have been channelling The Dude's mindset slightly.
All good with you and me. Haven't seen that movie for a while. Sure I have it here. Also, @John Robertson take no offence. I was not meant as a condemnation of you. Just answering questions. My choice of words can often come across as a little dispassionate but I try to put things like this clearly to avoid ambiguity.
“This is not ‘Nam. This is bowling. There are rules.”
Hey. No probs Xplora. No offence taken. Appreciate your answers to my hypotheticals. I have no evidence of the Button Man (or whoever that bloke i met was) having broken the law and have not suggested he has. Its not a crime to act strangely...as i said above, i was also acting 'strangely'. I just hope that these two campers in the Wonnangatta are found alive and well.
Yes two (by all accounts) well loved people are still missing. I think this thread has digressed somewhat.
The bottom line is a PLB is cheap life insurance in remote and tough terrain.
Regarding cameras - what about dashcams? smart phones? most people seem to be taking video of something/somebody without their permission.
Can we discuss that somewhere else? Happy for PM chat otherwise refer to legislation. Not really relevant to this thread which is going sideways. Not abdicating my part in that either.
You do in fact have to be conscious to activate one.
I'm not actually surprised at nothing being found. It is very easy not to see something as small as a human when they are down on the ground and not moving unless they are very, very brightly dressed and if poorly dressed we humans succumb to hypothermia very quickly
So, it's a yowie, panther, aliens or button man.
Or an elopement.
Probably taken by feral brumbies, dangerous things they are
I’ve taken a shortcut on Zeka Spur out of Wonangatta by foot.
The bush is VERY thick coming out the valley - for example at less than 2 metres from the Zeka Spur Track I couldn’t see it.
Misadventure, absconding or abduction ending in misfortune....
Absconding would normally leave some sort of a digital trail - phone and financial records with some irregularities.
You bite your tongue!
Everyone knows that if they had been found by the Brumbies they would have been delivered to safety after hearing some wonderful bush poetry and being given a good meal.
I do sometimes get a little concerned with either legal or illegal hunters, especially if mixed with a little alcohol. I would hate to be mistaken for an animal of any species.
Wouldn't surprise me
Certainly don’t want to upset them, when only armed with a basic a simple Victorinox, walking poles and Presumably, sharper wits (?)
Deer hunters often come across small plantations of marijuana, I've come across several myself but none so far have had booby traps or anything attached to them. Also these days the growing is more likely to be highly intensive and carried out under grolites in greenhouses than bush plots ; more profit in the good stuff so foul play from growers really isn't realistic IMO
Wrong place to grow outside anyway.
Exactly; it's not organised plantations, just some fellers growing a little personal use plants.
This thread is heading into 'Deliverance' territory....
Banjos, the sound of banjos....
Are you suggesting that the Button-Man has a Button-Sister-Wife?
Only watched that again a couple of nights ago. I think you are right. Is the suggestion coming that we should alter course? Personally I am getting a little uncomfortable with all the button man stuff. I would remind people (again) that from time to time loved ones visit pages such as these and comments should be made with that in mind. It could be easy to lose sight of that the way things are headed.
This thread has brought another weirdo to mind.
'6 Months jail for bone collector'
There are many wierdos and many Wonnangatta mysteries...I hope this doesn't remain a mystery for long...and that the conclusion is a positive one. I feel for the families of the missing couple.
100pc agree, I tend to want to know the theory or facts so that I might just be on the right side of them when I might need them.
There's often patterns anyhow as any student of the law realises. (on the criminal side, once you get past actus reas - and all that stuff - you get into the realms of negligence,recklessness and what a normal person would have done, duty of care - etc - it all repeats).
I then dial in for the 'real world' barrack-room lawyer side...
It never ceases to amaze me in general how misinformed people are. The "footy club" style conversations whilst funny can really show up who has not read the 'literature' in my experience.
I think we need to be careful on this one. I heard gun shots the night before he went missing, in the general direction that he went missing. (He went missing about 3 km from my house). I mentioned hearing the gun shots to another local who tends to spin yarns very convincingly from little knowledge. (I suspect the rumour came from him) I also made the suggestion to the police at the search site, but I don't think there was any credible evidence that he could have been shot. And it wouldn't necessarily have been illegal hunters. Could have been legal depending on the route he took (if indeed, he was shot).
Hmmm...another current affairs coverage tonight, of the Wonnangatta missing couple. Seems that the media love this stuff.