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An insight ...

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by dawooduck, Sep 10, 2015.

  1. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Some random formally of the name Pole Plant wrote this in a thread about a dog on a leash on Mt Bogong. PP was of course "howled down" but ..... 5 years later his words remain a poignant insight.
    Discuss .... when will skidoo and dog sled tours (as an example activity) be allowed on underutilized areas of our Alpine National Parks as they seem a logical continuation of the ever expanding use of our natural resource ? Note the mountain bike trail from Thredbo to Lake Crackenback, a development unheard of even 10yrs ago. Note the fairly open access to a myriad of activities within national parks in the USA and overseas. Note governments continual reliance on user pays access fees.
     
    #1 dawooduck, Sep 10, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2015
  2. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yes, capitalism has to grow to survive. 'Opening access' is just a free-market euphemism for letting me in to make profits while you become a customer.
     
  3. person s

    person s Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    'never' works for me
    the idea of 'underutilised' is amusing - no McDs, no freeways, no home units?
    if you read the history of places like Yosemite it's clear that John Muir and his successors had to make their life's work the protection of the natural environment
    yep, and bugger any notion of 'wilderness' or even 'bush'
     
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  4. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    Areas aren't under-utilised in NP's if they're being preserved for future generations to enjoy in a natural state or are letting the present generation escape into nature for a while.
     
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  5. nfip

    nfip Cold n' Rusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I pray a skidoo never set a track outside of a resort other than for R & R.
    It would be carnage .
    NPWS will not allow
     
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  6. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    The price of conservation is constant vigilance.
    Support one of the organisations in their fight: FoE, ACF, VNPA etc.
     
  7. Myazma

    Myazma One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Try finding the audit of Kosi mineral resources done by the gov a few years ago, classified state secret.
     
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  8. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Parks are not for people, we are only very privileged guests.

    And sometimes people should be excluded.

    Flora, Fauna, Ecosystem, Geography all come First. Peoples needs come last.

    There is no need to exploit any Park except for personal greed, and there is no need for this as there are way too many options for personal greed to express itself already.
     
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  9. Endless_Winter

    Endless_Winter One of Us

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    Hopefully never.
     
  10. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    We do however see a lot more skidoos in the park under the various emergency services "training" regimes. This is BC access by "resort skiers" driven.

    Is this not part of "access expansion" ?

    We now have people setting themselves up as "snow safety" bureaus.

    Same thing, creeping increased access driven by usage expansion.
     
  11. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Are base camp style BC trips "personal greed" ? Splitfest, Tele gatherings, Roof of Oz etc ?
     
  12. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Indeed but if you read pole plants missive and observe the increased access over 15yrs one could say that these organizations are fighting a loosing battle.

    People want access and they are taking it.
     
  13. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Of course but the pressures exist to obtain access. Look at the popularity of BC trip reports which promote access.
     
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  14. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Pretty much happening. When the critical mass wants access and the bureaucratic protectors want income, who sets the line ?
     
  15. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    But there is access for all, it's egalitarian, just use your legs, no one is banned, everyone is welcome :)
     
  16. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    The paradox of encouraging access by foot also encourages access by all other means and creates the groundswell for increased access ..... as is evident.
     
  17. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Unless you're disabled, or elderly.....
     
  18. person s

    person s Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    it would be useful to know how many people are actually doing this
    I like reading about it, will never do it
     
  19. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    You can see wins and losses. Need to take the longer view. Wasn't that long ago that in Vic an Alpine National Park looked like a dream, but it was won. The Great Forest NP is next. Get behind it and it will happen too.

    And don't vote Liberal in Vic. Their agenda was clear: parks for profits.
     
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  20. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yes but we all have limitations which hopefully we strive to overcome or accept but not to the detriment of others or the environment.
     
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  21. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yeah. You can have degrees of access. There are already wheel chair routes in some parks, in Vic and Tas. At the same time other zones are effectively bipedal only.
     
  22. mr

    mr Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    what is good imho about the US system is that its calibrated. There are full no go zones (wilderness parks like the Beartooth mountains where i worked) where flights are diverted over them and no mechanical tools can be used. at the other end there is guns, dogs, horses, skidoos and helicopters.

    what i dont see in vic or tas is any 'overunning' of resources. i reckon there are less people out there in alpine areas than 20 years ago. compare a victorian approach (slog, mostly, other than hotham) to a nsw approach (lifts), maybe this has something to do with predominantly nsw worries. whenever im near townsend i seem to get buzzed by navy/air force helicopters, and i definitely see mopre people around, although i cant say if its more than 20 years ago,

    i think we do have a 'lock it up' greenie mentality that runs down the resource (weeds, pests, erosion etc), because financial resources are directed towards higher use, but i also think the 'natural' conservation concept is a blank denial that our mountains, rivers and alpine areas have been cultural spaces for tens of thousands of years.
     
  23. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    It's still possible, and necessary, to say this zone is for conservation and that is for recreation involving a compromise in natural values.
    Half the problem with current park land mgt is lack of resources and that's a political issue.
     
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  24. GS

    GS Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Let's not forget the BC etiquette. ....skidoos would make a right mess of a good skin track.
     
  25. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Unless a skidoo has done the hard work and skinning up a skidoo track is a dream ;)
     
  26. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    Try skinning up the skidoo tracks from Guthega Power Stationto Schlink Pass with a smile on your face.
    It ain't a pleasure :(
     
  27. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    US Parks are also really big on accessibility - plenty of people joke that you can see everything without getting out of the car, but I also think that's great in it lets the disabled/elderly/young enjoy them too. I've been to quite a few in Southern Utah . Arizona etc and found them incredibly well laid out.

    We toe a fine line here between conservation and elitism. When I'm out recreating in our parks I seem to predominantly run in to a single demographic - 25-50yo, white, middle class, semi-to-very-athletic males.
     
  28. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    The other day I observed the SES with a US sledhead style setup of trailers of skidoos heading off across protected areas for "practise".

    I pondered "what need has driven this" machinery circus?

    Add NPWS, Fire, Police, Ambo with similar setups.

    I was also pondering the Swampy High Plains across from DHG, where almost nobody ventures and started thinking of a US style system of various access allowances and the businesses that grow up around such a system and how it could work here.

    Thredbo MTB track being an example of opening up access to various modes of transport as well as opening up the river for fishing.
     
  29. mr

    mr Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    agreed CM, thats my point about calibration. Glaceir NP was a bloody bear-jam of cars on the Going to the Sun Road, but once i was 200m off it i was in complete wilderness with noone around for 6 days

    whats guts me most though is that our supposed high conservation areas are actively unmanaged, as if thats 'natural'. no landscape in australia is without cultural influence

    dont get me wrong, i dont want skidoos or motorbikes in our NPs, but thats because im an elitist middle class middle aged male :)
     
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  30. Majikthise

    Majikthise Sage Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    The protection of alpine biodiversity needs to be the primary concern. With AGW these ecological communities are vulnerable and their resiliemce to interference will be highly compromised..
    I think there is scope for limited dog and skidoo touring but not overly confident that the areas of low impact that they could exist in would be attractive to the punter.
     
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  31. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    The "NSW approach" is historical. The resorts (apart from Blue Cow) were there when the area was not managed as a national park. It was run by a park trust, which existed to promote tourism, not preserve the area.
     
  32. mr

    mr Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    id sacrifice 10 percent to pay for the management of the other 90, rather than a running down clock on 100%
     
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  33. mr

    mr Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    true that, and the graziers were booted out 40-50 years before Victoria
     
  34. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    A kiting friend commented that when they were out, covering heaps of ground, they were spurned by some other BC enthusiasts, who would not even acknowledge a gidday. No doubt those people would like to ban kiting, as it intrudes on their personal enjoyment of the place.

    I copped a somewhat similar experience, when i skied down Carruthers to a camp that I knew a friend was in, with a xc ski club. One moment it was 2010, then it was 1974, but with gortex. Its their chouice to enjoy it in that fashion, and I remember the appeal, but does that mean I cant tele and enjoy it in my way?

    Its actually a very complex issue, with most groups being greedy in their own way.
     
  35. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    I also watched machinery building massive piles of snow for video shoots within 100m of a closed and protected pigmy possom habitat :confused: and pondered the access influences of various organisations.

    PB has a DA for a "village" that will require access to activities if ever built.

    So what is really "protected" ?
     
  36. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    There is another "new" group, kite skiing. Why not regulated dog sleds, skidoo picnics?

    Pole Plants missive from 15yrs ago appears to have been exceptionally accurate.
     
  37. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    Don't tell any anglers that the track is 'opening it up for fishing'! Their advice will be... "access already fine, swimming MTB riders not great for fishing or backcasts...." Selected adjectives removed.
     
  38. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Be careful fisher dudes, those mtb'ers are hopped up on Redbull!!!! Maybe you can make some spinners from the discarded cans covering the area!
     
  39. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Actually, sometimes back when I whitewater kayaked, you would go past some fisherman who had gone to quite some effort to get to his spot, and they never looked happy. Had you looking for the line!
     
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  40. mr

    mr Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    interesting TC, there's a beach we go to that often these days in a good seabreeze gets taken over by kite surfers, and it doesnt feel great, or safe and when they fly their kites over my 5 year olds head who is digging a sandcastle, it does seem intrusive, not a long bow from a jetski in terms of what we expect behaviour. i guess we have to change
     
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  41. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Lycra waders ... cycle fishers
     
  42. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    My friend is a sponsored rider, and he says that the beach is quite different to the snow, and there needs to be some actual rules. Experienced kiters are one thing. The numbers are much greater down the coast.
     
  43. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    another aspect of the change in attitudes
    epirbs, and to a lesser extent mobile phones and gps

    the growing attitude that it is foolhardy top venture away from sealed roads and buildings. you must rely on this technology and expect people to come running to your rescue. and that's a drain on resources, so maybe you shouldn't be out there in the first place....

    that as much as anything IMHO is likely to drive commercialisation, fees, restricted access
     
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  44. person s

    person s Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    this is a regulatory issue?
    we don't have jetskis in Sydney Harbour because they were banned
    until then, you could find any number of idiots hooning around
     
  45. Ian D

    Ian D Pool Room Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    When judging a system as "fair" or "equitable" it is almost impossible to do it if you are one in a position of advantage (ie it works for you). The only way to see if a system is equitable is to look at it from the perspective of the disempowered.

    Like so many options in life there is no "right" answer. An answer which seems right to one person is seen as grotesquely unfair by another and without sitting back and looking at it from their perspective (which can be almost impossible to do if you haven't experienced it) then it is hard to discuss.

    Try spending just 1 day in a wheelchair, and your perspective to access will profoundly change from that moment forward.
     
  46. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    This I think is the main fault with the discussions of this nature & the greed is projected in the name of conservation but it's really just elitism.
     
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  47. person s

    person s Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    now that Rupert is going to control National Geographic the whole idea of the natural environment is about to change
    if you haven't read Bill Bryson's Walk in the Woods he has quite an interesting ponder on how national parks should work
    I suspect that the movie probably doesn't cover that
     
  48. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/elitism
    Not really when it's free access with no restrictions except to motorised vehicles.
    Heli skiing is the definition of elitist IMO
     
  49. mr

    mr Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    one of our institutional clients blindfolds and / or puts their facilities management staff in a wheelchair once a year for this exact reason
     
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  50. Ian D

    Ian D Pool Room Staff Member Administrator Moderator

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    That is from your perspective. You have the luxury of having the ability to get in there under your own power without assistance. Someone that can't do that but needs mechanical aid sees that requirement as elitism.

    You see the system as fair because it works for you and your social circle. For someone that it doesn't work for they have a different perspective.
     
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