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Another bloody sleeping bag thread!

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by plink01, Nov 23, 2020.

  1. plink01

    plink01 Hard Yards

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    Sorry I know there is already a bunch of sleeping bag threads but I can't really find the answer im looking for so ill try here.

    Ok so im getting into overnight/multiday hiking and will also be doing overnight/backcountry snow camping next year. Im struggling to work out what temperature bag i need.

    I generally find i sleep warm, but I want to be able to use this bag all year round so im thinking a -10 down bag is way too hard-core.
    Im thinking more a 0 rating and in snow ill just layer up more or buy a liner to go with it. I don't mind if I can't sleep in my jocks, ill happily wear thermals and a big jacket if need be.

    Am I on the right track here?? Will 0 degrees still be too warm for the other 3 seasons? I can't see why if im too warm i can't just unzip it and wear only half of it.
    Im pretty sold on the idea of down rather than synthetic and im prepared to pay the extra price.

    I will generally be skiing Hotham region and hiking in the Vic high country.

    Thanks for your help!!
     
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  2. Chaeron

    Chaeron Ski-Hike-Blade-Bike-Kayak Ski Pass: Gold

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    Cue the discussion around sleeping bags vs. alternatives, the R-value of a well-insulated mat, being a warm vs. cold sleeper, going with a light summer bag and a winter bag, plus down vs. synthetic. The value of a sleeping bag liner etc.

    Also, issues of design - slim, boxed foot design, totally unzippable etc.

    Mont has decent stuff: http://www.bogong.com.au/mont-telemark-hnaute-s-bag-xl.html

    On sale these are good value...

    A really warm bag is essential when it’s really cold, no matter whether one has other insulaton.

    I personally can’t think of a bag I could use all round which would also be adequate to the snow and vice versa.


    https://bushwalkingnsw.org.au/clubsites/FAQ/FAQ_SkiTouring.htm#Bags


    @Kletterer @skifree @nfip
     
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  3. pegasusSki

    pegasusSki One of Us

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    I use a -8 bag with a exped style mat and a foam mat in the snow. In summer I've been known to drape it over me.
    It's amazing how cool even a summer's night can be and at 3am you can awake cooler than you thought you would be... My wife sleeps cold and complained one Christmas a -8 bag was cold. She misses the weight of a dooner.
     
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  4. Snow Blowey

    Snow Blowey Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Ivan - is that you?
     
  5. zapruda

    zapruda One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    A 0c bag is going to be miserable in the middle of winter even with a heavy down jacket on while inside.

    Down loses loft on multi day trips and subsequently it’s warmth. Because our alps are so humid it means that a 0c bag on night 1 might be a 5 degree bag by night 5. Something to factor in.

    If you plan on spending summer and winters in the alps you really need two bags. I would suggest you get a good winter bag and a good summer bag/quilt and obviously pair them with mats that have an appropriate r rating. Site selection and a proper meal before bed also play in to how warm you sleep.

    My preference is for a -12c bag for winter here in the NSW alps and a 0c bag/quilt for summer trips. I sleep a little colder than some.

    These days I only use custom Nunatak bags made in Utah. They are exceptionally well made and arguably some of the best down products on the market.

    I’ve moved away from traditional mummy bags and use Nunataks hoodless designs with a centre zip that turn in to quilts. Quite a nice versatile feature in environments like ours where it might be -7c one night and 5c the next. I pair the hoodless winter bag with a down balaclava in winter and just rely on the a beanie or nothing for my head warmth in the summer.

    Here are some pics of my Nunatak bags.
     
  6. plink01

    plink01 Hard Yards

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    Awesome thanks for all the super quick replies. Well I might start with - 8 sleeping
    bag with a thermarest mattress and see how i go during the warmer months.

    If its too hot ill buy a summer bag as well, I really hate compromises and I think i would rather 2 sleeping bags rather than 1 bag that's not really great at either.

    Im still thinking a - 8 bag unzipped and drapped partially over me will be ok for the summer. But I won't know till I try.
     
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  7. pegasusSki

    pegasusSki One of Us

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    Zapruda makes a really good point about winter sleeps and each day degrading the gear. Depending on the humidity and wetness I've had some cooler nights than others - I sleep in clothes too often baselayers are all that is needed. I find 2 mats mean I don't need any warmer gear on. I see Zapruda also uses 2 mats - the foam also protects the blow-up one. Typical blowups are Thermarest and Exped. Exped do a downmat as well as a Synmat.

    Also make a point of sunning the bag and tent before packing away if morning sun and times allow. This is almost one of the most important "admin" things to do in camp that could make or break comfort on a trip.
     
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  8. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I have the Mont Telemark for winter use, its a bit heavy, but never lets me down (haha) it doesn't seem to lose any loft etc over multiple days, even when I stuff it with moisture still on the shell (packing early with icing inside the tent). The newer outer shells are so much better than the old.

    I have a Helium 450 for 3 season, its comfy down to zero, but needs layers after that.

    The good thing is, a winter bag will cost $$$, but a 3 season is much cheaper, or can be. I have an Anaconda style shitter for car camping in summer.
     
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  9. piolet

    piolet Better make it three Ski Pass: Gold

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    2 bags
    0°c? Dont do it to yerself. -10 all the way
    Mine is -18 and its been great.

    Summer i have a nice +5° roman
     
  10. DidSurfNowSki

    DidSurfNowSki One of them Ski Pass: Gold

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    Do people still use sleeping bags ?

    :out:
     
  11. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    I've lost track a little of what we have. I have a old blue bag for Summer and a newer Green bag for Winter.
     
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  12. pegasusSki

    pegasusSki One of Us

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    hideously expensive in AU on shore, mores the pity
    I got a Helium for 300 USD 10 years ago
     
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  13. legend

    legend One of Us

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    Just remember the bags from the USA (Western Mountaineering included) have the Lower/extreme limit named on their bags. A 20ºF bag (-6ºC) means most people will survive but suffer at this temperature, but comfortable to just above 0ºC. I have a 10ºF (-12ºC) quilt from Enlightened Equipment (USA) and it is good to around -2ºC. It weighs 680g.
     
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  14. piolet

    piolet Better make it three Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yeah my 0°F bag would be frosty at that temp. -10 c no worries
     
  15. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    From the Western Mountaineering website.
    I’ve got a Versalite, 905 g, very happy with it.
     
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  16. mholling

    mholling One of Us

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    For quilts, UGQ do made-to-order and seem pretty affordable. Anyone care to expound on quilts for snow?
     
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  17. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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  18. piolet

    piolet Better make it three Ski Pass: Gold

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    My winter bag is big agnes. Quite nicely made.
     
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  19. zapruda

    zapruda One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Quilts are great above 0c. They are light and versatile in warm weather. A draft at 5c is perfectly fine In my experience. When the temps start getting down in to the minuses it’s hard to deal with the inherit drafts of quilts. No matter how good their attachment system is they have always managed to let some cold air in when I’ve used them. I am a rotisserie sleeper though. All my experimentation with quilts in winter has left me miserable. It takes for ever to heat the buggers back up once the warm air has been let out.
     
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  20. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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  21. ecowain

    ecowain One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Others above have mentioned most salient points about quilts.

    My 2c.

    For where I live in the blue mountains, I use two quilts. 30f EE from October to March. Overstuffed 10f EE from April to October. Both are cut extra wide to minimise gaps. They work perfectly for me, I’d be uncomfortable in the 10f in summer.

    I can squeeze the 10f into snow use if careful and using additional clothing, but it needs more attention to drafts etc once a couple of degrees below freezing. If I want a low care winter trip, I take a 0f montbell mummy bag (because that’s what I could afford at that point in life. The WM versalite would be high on my list if I needed to replace).

    If I lived and recreated year round around the Victoria alps, the 10f quilt would be my main all rounder, apart from probably in the snow unless I felt tough.

    I don’t really like enclosed mummy bags much, as I toss and turn. Unzipping a mummy bag doesn’t work that well due to the foot pocket. Semi rec bags that unzip the whole way work well across a range of temps, but tend to be heavier and less premium materials. From memory OP do a nice semi rec bag with great materials that might be nice to look at, maybe they do a colder weather version now? I’d look at something like -10 comfort rating if you wanted any chance of using it year round.

    But of course, these thoughts are for my personal metabolism, I also sleep warm. YMMV.

    Edit. Just read back over this, what a morning ramble. Sorry.
     
  22. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    My Telemark is basically a mummy, but it unzips the whole way.
     
  23. ecowain

    ecowain One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Well then it’s not fully a mummy.
     
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  24. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Same shape!
     
  25. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    New improved mummy! Except it is heavy by todays standard.
     
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  26. POW_hungry

    POW_hungry Old n' Crusty Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    I sleep cold, so I use my winter (Mont Spindrift 700 XT) bag for Summer & Winter trips. Mummify-it in Winter, drape it over me in Summer (alpine).
    As @zapruda pointed out the humidity is typically waaay up there at night in the Aus Alps so I end up cold if I compromised for Summer or weight.
     
  27. Moondog55

    Moondog55 One of Us

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    I've been snow camping here in Australia for a while now and you really need a system that can cope with -18C.
    There are may places that get colder than the weather station measuring points by several degrees and you need to be able to cope with extremes.
    Coping doesn't mean comfortable, it just means surviving and getting some sleep.
    Do you own warm clothing? Can you wear that warm clothing inside your sleeping bag and get a 10 degree boost that way? Most light weight sleeping bags are cut narrow/skinny to get the weight down and don't have the room to allow you to layer up inside the bag and this is one reason why quilts have become popular. That said I can't use a quilt below about 15C because of the draft issues mentioned above.
    Condensation within the insulation can be a large factor in long term sleeping bag use but over a weekend and assuming a good tent it's only a small issue, over a week or two it becomes a major issue and needs to be dealt with.
    Note that in my first line I say "System" because everything needs to work together.
    You start with what is underneath you because your mattress is more important than your sleeping bag when camping on snow [ it only took me 30 years to work that out] and the old standard of using double Karrimats worked well enough but wasn't as comfortable as an airbed.
    CCF foam is for safety and insurance and having all of my soft mattresses fail on me at some time I always carry something like a CCF mat or a Thermarest RidgeRest for insurance.
    I like to use a double bag system in winter or boost my bags rating by sleeping in my insulated clothing and I do use a Goretex bivvy bag to protect my UL winter bag from moisture and abrasion even if it adds weight.
    My UL down parka would add about 5C to any bags lower rating if I also used warm pants and socks over and above the layers assumed to be worn when sleeping bags are EN Tested [ this being medium weight long underwear, socks, gloves and a beanie] if I wore my big down parka and Patagonia DAS pants I could add 30C if the sleeping bag was large enough to enable this.
    My current new summer sleeping bag is rated at 4C but can be used as an overbag for a lighter mummy bag to give a 20C boost.
    A light weight down bag rated to above/about freezing and good for summer [ 10C] or shoulder season [ 0C] use can be used in winter by using a LW or UL synthetic or down bag over the top or by the use of appropriate insulated clothing or by doing both.
    Sleeping bag size is important, a big bag isn't any cooler than a narrow bag but it will take longer to warm up but if you are going to sleep in your insulated clothing the bag needs to be a minimum internal girth of 150mm bigger than the maximum diametre of your measured girth when wearing these clothes, such Expedition cut sleeping bags are therefore both bigger and heavier than the same temperature rated bags in the narrower cut.
    If I used the sleeping bags and overquilt I now have I could equal the rating of the Extreme winter bag I just sold to a feller in Canada, about -55C but with a kilo weight penalty. Layering works with sleeping bags in the same way it does with clothing.
    I find the Western Mountaineerings ratings are conservative and I sleep cold, the worst mistake I have made in a long time was selling off my WM Tamarack
     
  28. pegasusSki

    pegasusSki One of Us

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    ...as many of us only spend weekends away, we often only have to worry about 1 night out, esp if Friday night is in a car somewhere. It does take a lot of risk and hardship out. My rule is more than 3 nights out and you need to plan a lot more and be more organised around layering, backup clothes, and condensation.

    If more than 2 nights, I ensure I sleep in the dryer /spare kit, changing into the wetter /sweatier stuff in the day - as I will be moving. Part of the system then is making sure that spare base layers are drying somehow. [If on rotation, they will all get sweaty. On longer trips again you might wash and dry]. If I'm only really doing Saturday night then you can leave the spares in the drybag and they may never see the light of day..!
     
  29. legend

    legend One of Us

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    I've used quilts to around -20ºC but having a silk inner sheet really helps (-20º at Pounds Creek quite a few winters ago). Frost inside the tent was a real problem, covering everything. Get up pre-sunrise to wipe/shake off the frost. This was before we had thermarests and slept on the original foam mats. Such nights mean lots of sunshine during the to dry everything off.
     
  30. GS

    GS Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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  31. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Interesting, the weight of the Helium 450 + one of those is still nearly half a keg lighter than my Telemark........

    I note Mont is not having its factory sale due to Covid, but will be doing something online with the "black" sale thing, might be worth keeping an eye on.
     
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  32. GS

    GS Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    The primaloft quilt @Untele-whippet linked to, over the Helium 450 would add a fair bit of temp range and still be 600gms lighter than my Winterlite....hmmm
     
  33. Moondog55

    Moondog55 One of Us

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    All they do is keep your sleeping bag clean, the temperature claims are exaggerated by a good ten degrees.
    There are LW and UL liner bags that do add many degrees to a bags lower limit but most sleeping bags are not big enough to allow them to work properly unless you are on the very very skinny side; which most of us are not.
    The same applies to sleeping in insulated clothing.
    EG:
    https://www.mont.com.au/collections...tra-light-13-to-7-degrees-c-down-sleeping-bag
    https://www.mont.com.au/collections...r-light-8-to-2-c-ultralight-down-sleeping-bag
    Personally I don't like Mont sleeping bags, too tight and far too much zipper but they suit many peoples needs and the Nadgee on sale is good value.
    Add a LW synthetic over bag and it would be good for almost any Australian snow conditions
     
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  34. ecowain

    ecowain One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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  35. Moondog55

    Moondog55 One of Us

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  36. Moondog55

    Moondog55 One of Us

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  37. Moondog55

    Moondog55 One of Us

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    Damn right we do as soon as the temperature drops below 15C.
     
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  38. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator

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    I have a Rab Summit with 1100 grams of fill for anything cold. Its full length zip so have used it as a quilt if it gets above zero or so. The Salewa bag died so i bought a new quilt recently.
    Its a Feathered Friends Flicker UL 20 that is apparently going to take a while to make and send. Quite a reputaion for quality and conservative ratings so looking forward to seeing what its like.
     
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  39. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    Add on some of their down hut booties to your order.
    Removable shells so they convert to toasty clean down sox to sleep in.
    Recommend
     
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  40. Team Weasel

    Team Weasel One of Us

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    I agree on this. Maybe if you're a fair-weather spring touring type you can get away with less, but I reckon my -18 bag has saved my butt a couple of times when I've been stupid cold and wet. My bag's a bit old too, so maybe it's more of a -15 now anyway.

    I'm probably going a Rab Mythic 600 for my next winter bag, and a WM Highlite for summer. Also like the look of the Marmot Lithium for winter.
     
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  41. hpsauce

    hpsauce A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Even if I have a warm enough bag....I defo like sleeping in socks and fleece, beanie, neck gaiter etc cause it just makes getting up in the morn so much damn easier! But my bag is so tight that if I wanted to take socks off during the night inside my bag I got no chance LOL

    Once below -10, sealing of the bag matters so much for me. I just don't know how anyone could do -15 with quilts etc and not be sealed up with nice hood and baffles
     
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  42. piolet

    piolet Better make it three Ski Pass: Gold

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    Hot water bottle!!
     
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  43. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    In your crotch to heat your femoral artery. Super toasty.
     
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  44. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Just bought the new eBag. Only weighs 500g, rated down to -20. Unfortunately the battery is the killer. And if you need the extender for multiday, wow.
     
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  45. piolet

    piolet Better make it three Ski Pass: Gold

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    I like my hot tootsies directed warmed
     
  46. GS

    GS Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Nadgee on clearance seemed a good deal, tad heavier than I would prefer though as I could only find a large size still available.

    Looked at the both the Reactor liners and Mont Helium 450 this morning at Paddy Pallin. Not convinced on the merits of the Reactor, but couldn't say no to the Helium 450 at 20% off price. Not intending to use as a snow bag, more a replacement for the 30 year old J&H Bushlite. Instant 550gm weight saving.

    Last night I looked at the new Mountain Designs Ultratek range of bags. Seem well featured with good materials and reasonable weights and were quite tempting at 30% off sale.
     
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  47. Moondog55

    Moondog55 One of Us

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    I have seen those "new" MD sleeping bags, the Regular is a small small and the large is a small regular. They are far too skinny for me even before I put on a duvet jacket. I have been eyeing off the cheap down blanket to keep in the car tho, the current bag in the car takes up too much room as do the woollen blankets.
    https://www.mountaindesigns.com/equipment/sleeping/sleeping-bags/outdoor-quilt/BP90138891
    I had a voucher to use up before the 22nd but never pulled the trigger
     
  48. GS

    GS Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yarra Valley Vic
    Sizing is ok for me being of slight build, they could be an option for replacing my Winterlite. I was dubious of the MD made in China label, but then the Mont has the same label
     
  49. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
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    Yes, Mont manufacture in China mostly. I remember when their factory was in Quangers. Along with J&H (One Planet).
     
  50. Snow Blowey

    Snow Blowey Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2004
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    Location:
    Dubbo NSW

    How does your Agnes feel about you calling her "big" and a "bag" on the internet?

    Does she have a sister?
     
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