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Suggestion Backcountry Setup Weight

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by Team Weasel, Apr 13, 2020.

  1. Team Weasel

    Team Weasel One of Us

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    That'd be a biomechanical study I'd be interested in. Effect of weight, optimal stride length, impact of skin track angle...I've tried informally but it's pretty hard to be rigorous with so many variables.

    I've done plenty in Oz on 108mm wide skis. If you could have only one ski for BC, I'd probably go somewhere around 105-108 width. It's definitely more to get from edge to edge, but something like the ZG105/108, Wayback 106, Corvus Freebird have plenty of edge grip for the steep and firm. And in anything soft or loose, they are that bit more stable than thinner skis.
     
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  2. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    Light and wide skis I think need good bots to drive them. My 109 sticks are light as can be but really I need a better boot to drive them when conditions are less than perfect. Which is most of the time!
     
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  3. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    For covering distance in typical Oz conditions my pick is a double camber pattern base ski of about 70mm underfoot. For turns as a priority part of a tour single camber 80mm.
     
    #103 Ziggy, Apr 21, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2020
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  4. telenomore

    telenomore One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Yes buying online doesn't help this aspect but it's the present and the future (particularly now!) in most cases. Still like to pick up, feel and flex a ski, although it doesn't tell you the full picture it helps in the decision process.
     
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  5. PiedPiper

    PiedPiper One of Us

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    Hence why good technique is so important when skinning!
    I often wonder about the pro/cons of weight on your foot/binding vs weight on the ski/board?
    In theory you are always lifting at least part of your foot/heel, but - int theory again- the board/skis can be basically always resting on the snow/skintrack...
     
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  6. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Thinking about the physics of it, there’s the inescapable work required to make the mass gain height, but if you lift up your feet too much you gain too much height with every step which is sure to add up, but you also need to unweight the ski enough to reduce drag.....
     
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  7. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Lift the heel, push forward with the toe while the ski stays flat.
     
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  8. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Then there's diagonal stride with the rig becoming a pendulum.
     
  9. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

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    My touring set ups vary according to intended use.

    Lightest = 3420g (C95T1) or 3545g (W112T1)
    DPS Cassiar 95 178cm Tour1 or Wailer 112 178cm Tour1.
    Dynafit ST 10
    Scott Supeguides
    Both set ups skis super well here at home. I don't have any issues with firm snow or both handle most conditions really well. I'm still on Dynafit, even though I've been a proponent for the Shift type set up. Just haven't gone there yet and I have a few pairs on Dynafit, so.

    Heavier = 5770g
    DPS W112RP Alchemist 184cm
    Tyrolia Adrenalin 13
    Scott Superguides

    This set up is for resort / sidecountry. Sometimes swap in my Lange SX120 boots but not riding this much lately. I still have no issue with a frame binding for resort / side country. They work fine and drive the ski really well.

    I do need new touring boots though. So not sure. Was looking for super light Fischer TraversCC but they've had issues with then carbon cuff so not really interested in the CS. Like the look of the new Scott Freeguide, so probably will go there.
     
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  10. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Good point. This is why I am giving the Contour hybrid mob-mix skins a go - in addition to my kickers.

    I found full nylon skins meant there was so little glide in JapowBC I was virtually lifting and then plonking each foot down more like a long snowshoe - admittedly on a steady 20-25 degree treed slope in deep soft snow. It’s all very well to talk about keeping the ski on the snow but they still need to glide for this to work. Sure skin wax; plus daily and skier conditions come in to play too!

    There’s a whole debate needed here about accessing and maintaining skins that are a good compromise between grip and glide - even if that means a moh-mix skin is trashed and replaced in 5 years rather than 10 or 15 for 100% nylon.

    Be great topic for a leading retailer (when allowed to open!) to run a workshop or two; ‘skin choice, use and maintenance 101’.
     
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  11. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

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    Certainly possible but on the whole it would probably be an oversight more than a deliberate attempt to deceive.

    The race was fully on to get the lightest ski. The fact is that they all climb well when super light but they are absolute shite to ski. We got caught up in this as well with our attempt to renew our Tour1 construction. Then half way through the design phase someone threw their hands up and said, what we all were thinking, "yeah it's super light but it skis like shit". Everyone laughed and we changed tact. So our new Pagoda Piste the same weight as our Tour1 ski but quite different in construction. They ski really well from all reports and they're light enough. More damp than the Tour1 construction at the same weight.

    As you suggest many skis are tweaked prior to the retail model hitting the stores. If the marketing department is full steam ahead with all the collateral then there may be anomolies. Usually this will be adjusted somewhere along the line.
     
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  12. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Never had an issue with maintenance. Dry after use. Avoid getting crap on sticky side. Roll up and put in gear box between uses. Have a pair of G3 skins in use that would be over 10 years old.
     
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  13. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

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    Yeah this is a mine field.

    Was never a fan of either G3 or BD skins. Pomoca all the way. But now, Ha ha. Contour can't be beat.

    Skins need lovin' just like all things. Treat 'em well and they will last (longer). Mohair certainly doesn't have the durability of 100% nylon. But if you're not a fan of skinning on sandpaper then mohair is the go. Both are better when mated with each other to achieve a good balance. Mohair will absorb water the nylon content reduces this. Ideally Mohair should have some help to deliver an even better outcome. In Oz conditions it pays to keep them waxed, particularly in spring. The wax will protect the mohair and reduce moisture penetration.

    As for glue. This is now a no brainer. Contour Hybrid glue is worlds ahead. Everyone I have put on to them has raved about the ease of maintenance. Just so much better than hot melt. Bruce is having the same feedback at Wilderness.
     
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  14. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Now I just need some snow & a Dan CV leave pass to test the new Contours.
    I’m Sure my wif will agree!! ⛷
     
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  15. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    An interesting insight into Ski development DPSD - oh to be a skiing - materials engineer. What a way to enjoy the fruits of one’s labour?

    re ski weights changing with time and varying ski to ski. I wonder what the industry would thing about advertising individual plank weights on the sales sticker/docket?

    I know there’s one or two large Music Store chains that publish guitar weights of each axe in the store and online. Plus various pics (& weight) online.

    Unless the skis are second hand - unlike guitars where the wood grain & paint varies a lot across each axe, new skis almost look the same - I think?

    But ski weight varies. Sometimes a lot - even within a pair, as I noted in a recent Backland 100 test. On Wildsnow.

    I wonder what retailers would think about advertising individual ski weights? Not impressed I’d say!
     
  16. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

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    I don't think too many would worry about it but it really isn't such a big deal. Most pairs should be within a few grams of each other which has no effect. But variances will always happen.

    Quality control should weed out any large variances. Every single ski is weighed at DPS, I would imagine most other manufacturers do the same. If the variance is too great then that indicates a manufacturing issue. ie hollow core or some other issue. As stated it's part of quality control.

    Most pairs are moulded together as one so should be quite uniform. It's not an exact science mainly because the wood cores can vary marginally. See pic below. Anomolies are then classified as seconds or blems. These are generally what we get for demo skis, provided the issue is not one which would effect performance.

    Some companies then on-sell the 2nds to clearance houses which sell as new skis to Australian at very cheap prices.;););)


    [​IMG]
     
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  17. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Some very tasty looking bananas and carrots there DPS D :cool:
     
  18. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    So it's probably pretty telling that on Friday and Saturday, even though the snow that had fallen was pretty deep and unconsolidated, faced with the choice of taking out my 2.7kg per foot Corvus Freebird / Shift combo or my 1.9kg per foot Camox Freebird / G3 Zed combo, because the days were going to be entirely self-powered I didn't hesitate and took the Camox. Definitely not as good on the downhills but without a lift bump I decided light is right and still had a ball.
     
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  19. Peagreenboat

    Peagreenboat Addicted

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    Just my two cents worth as one of the few females that post into this bit of the forum, I really find weight makes a big difference to me. I find that is a huge part of my my decision in terms of what I ski in. Going out BC for a week, means picking something that can handle a pack and gear, but also up to 20km trips in a day, and being able to get back to camp without total exhaustion and therefore hitting icier conditions later in the day which I avoid at all costs. Both the SO and I are skiing the sameish gear, though our experience and abilities are hugely different and he'll pop off a mountain in this gear whereas I'll be traversing. For him it's not weight but versatility. My set up weighs the following:
    Skis (Madshus Eon: approx 1900g)
    Boots: Garmont Synergy (2900g: recently upgraded from the Excursions), (Switched to 1500g fleecy lined, women's Meindl leathers for LM, whereas he does the skate skis and pilots if it's groomed)
    Voile HD (no cable). 440g

    We have the BD kicker skins in the pack on those trips, and full skins. I've not used them but they are useful but not as useful as a full skin but again it's a trade off. The other thing, I have found to date, is that I have had some suberbly twisted falls, and in the lightset up, theres movement in the boot and with the bindings, that I've not sustained any injuries. I hope I dont eat my words on that but because I don't ski aggressively, it is a consideration, that I notice isn't as comfortable when I am using cables and in fact my only injury has been coming off Drovers with cable bindings.
     
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  20. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Finally! I’ve pulled the pin on a Lynx binding (lights not gunna get any greener!) :)

    I’ve added my name to an order - so it’s not the same as having them on person once decent snow arrives. It’s a start towards lighter touring. And the beauty of this approach (over skis) is that my various (heavier) existing skis with QK will all benefit. Renting this winter should (could) help the ski issues! ;)

    Potentially, this may mean less mounting / demounting of binding pre/post weekend? I can dedicate Lynx to a lighter/ narrower ski & Outlaw to wider.

    Delivery? I think it’s later in spring, so I may report on their performance until 2021.

    But the onward March toward lighter touring has commenced. I note Dostie thinks Scarpa have a light boot in development (delayed by COVID19). Could 2021 be the year?

    Thanks to all on the forum for your advice re long, long, painful decision!! :thumbs::rolleyes::whistle::confused:
     
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  21. Chaeron

    Chaeron A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Enjoy!
     
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  22. satanas

    satanas Addicted

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    ^ If it's a tele boot with decent ROM this is indeed news! If AT, not so much; they've got plenty of those already. Fingers crossed, but breath not held.
     
  23. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    No none of us are. Covid could set timelines back years - esp for firms in northern Italy.

    An NTN boot with a weight closer to 1.5kg than 2kg, for say a MP 30.0 ~ the WGT of my Excursions would make a big tour day a lot easier on the legs and hips.

    Might even poach some of the AT crowd with the right, lightweight gear?
     
  24. Schwarzer Mann

    Schwarzer Mann Hard Yards

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    Sorry to hijack this. I'm still fannying about with ordering my first backcountry setup and I had myself pretty much convinced of a combo of K2 Wayback 88 and a Tecton. Would be interested to hear your thoughts if this would cause issues or if there is an better suited binding to the ski?
     
  25. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Wayback 88 needs a ~300g binding like a Fritschi Xenic, Marker Alpinist, ATK Crest etc. G3 Zed at a pinch.

    I just put 2 sets of Shifts on 2 pairs of Camox Freebirds. Made me cry*.



    *not financially.
     
  26. Schwarzer Mann

    Schwarzer Mann Hard Yards

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    Thank you, good to know.
    Glad I asked before I made someone cry*

    *and then fist pump when I turn my back...
     
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  27. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    A good series Wayback / Talkback anyway - I enjoy trying Mrs SG’s 170 cm 88 Talkbacks as a super light teleski for tricky narrow trails like the Twins near Hotham.

    A great ski can’t see the Wayback being much different?
    just a tad stiffer for heavier bodies?
     
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  28. smackies

    smackies A Local

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    All this chat about skinning efficiency. Pft. I don't believe there is such a thing with a splitboard. Least of all the u-shaped tracks we leave behind.

    Love my current Kohla skins, though. Glide well, stick well.
     
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  29. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yeah it's more of a trudge than a glide.

    That said I've seen some people on splits with light alpine touring boots and tech binding toes, they made it look pretty good.
     
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  30. smackies

    smackies A Local

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    I figure if (when) I get to that point, I'll be skiing.

    All reasoned thinking points to it.
     
  31. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    LOL
     
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  32. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    I know almost zippo about Split boards - although we had a couple of riders in our day tour in Hakuba, fun! - but, the gear still looks like it’s 90% about the down & only 10% about the up?

    By their very design the two half boards are a weird shape, very wide but a bit short, heavy looking, and I guess - can’t be sure - have a camber not particularly helpful for gliding with skins? (Cool to be corrected!)

    Full marks though for pushing on within the limit of that design!

    I guess fixy-heelers say that about pin-heads? ;):D
     
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  33. Myazma

    Myazma One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Easy to spot the new splitters tracks. Always telling peeps to slide not lift
     
  34. Endless_Winter

    Endless_Winter One of Us

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    Easier said than done sometimes. I've recently changed to hard boots, with soft boots I found I always had to lift ever so slightly, maybe the geometry of the toe pivot point or something? With hard boots and tech toes I don't have the same issue.

    No need to ski! But do go hard boot, if you have the $$$ (believe me, it's not cheap!). Totally worth it, IMO.
     
  35. smackies

    smackies A Local

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    For general moving about the backcountry, though, skiing is just far superior. Okay, the down on a board makes it all worth it but the overshoots or undershoots, the flat bits, the poking around the top of a line, minor adjustments to get in the right viewing position and heaven forbid a rescue scenario...

    I give myself another five years of excuses before I commit to the switch.
     
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  36. Interruptedbyfireworks

    Interruptedbyfireworks One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    I need you to post-it this to my forehead please
     
  37. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Or written in texta on the tips of your splits.

    Practice your Moon Walk at home is a good start in training yourself to keep your feet / splits on the ground.


     
  38. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    OK digging this one up again.

    Coming up with some rules of thumb as we ponder & sell lots of BC setups, and tell lots of people that their ideas are stupid. Interestingly most of the stupid ideas involve a light ski and a heavy binding and boot. If you do that to a touring ski you will most likely break it.

    Basically we reckon that the boot should roughly weigh the same as the ski, and the binding should be no more than 45% the weight of the ski, even for a freeride oriented setup, and proper touring can optimally be more like 20-25%.

    Currently I've got

    Camox Freebird: 1500g
    Zero G Tour Pro: 1320g (88% ski weight)
    G3 Zed w/ Brake: 432g - (29% ski weight)
    (I wish I had an ATK Crest 10: 280g - 18.6%)

    Corvus Freebird: 1850g
    Cochise 130 Dyn: 1950g (105% ski weight)
    Atomic Shift: 886g (47.9% of ski weight)

    Both IMO are pretty balanced setups, I love the Camox but didn't have a huge amount of choice when I mounted the bindings, that said I really like how the Zed performs, realistically the Corvus is too heavy to actually go proper touring on, but the components are well balanced.

    In the past I've had

    Dynafit Cho Oyu: 1170g
    Atomic Backland Carbon: 1161g (99% ski weight)
    G3 ION LT: 456g (38.9% ski weight) - this binding was too heavy but I had one lying around.

    Line Sick Day Tourist: 1625g
    Dynafit TLT6P: 1119g (68% ski weight)
    G3 ION 12: 640g (39% ski weight)

    Out of these setups the I know I could have got away with a lighter binding on the Dynafit ski, easily could have dropped down to a ~300g number or potentially even lighter, and I was probably underweight on the Dynafit boot on the Sick Day, it drove that setup OK but left a bit to be desired.

    One setup that we absolutely love and put a lot of the people on who actually listen to us is:

    Navis Freebird: 1550g
    Atomic XTD 120: (101% ski weight)
    Fritschi Tecton: 680g (43.8% ski weight)

    Comes out absolutely spot on for a free ride oriented touring setup that you would still want to walk on.


    Thoughts @Team Weasel ??
     
    #138 CarveMan, Jun 24, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2020
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  39. Team Weasel

    Team Weasel One of Us

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    Yeah, I like that system. Body weight percentage is the other one I use, but that gets super finicky and subjective to each user.

    Having a setup that coheres well together is important - I guess the place some people go first is to ditch weight from the bindings by going full tech bindings on heavy skis and beefy boots. Seen pretty often in NA I find. But if you're pushing that hard to necessitate that kind of ski and boot, the last thing you want to be doing is regularly locking your toe out...

    I've come also to treat the Shift like what it is - an alpine binding that can tour, but really shouldn't be used for it too much. Tecton is pretty much the best compromise out there right now for freetouring. I know some people want just one setup for BC and resort, but that's just making big sacrifices in both regards. It's probably the Kingpin effect again - people see the Shift and they see it's a binding like they know, whilst most people who see an ATK think it's a tele binding or think it has a DIN of 1.

    I can see a use for a heavier boot than the ZGTP for some folks, but I'm surprised there are new boots coming out which are so heavy but targeted at free touring...maybe it's the lift-assisted crowd. I did get in a pair of Dalbellos last year - about 3.5kg with the tongue removed, and they can totally be skied inbounds. But yeah, that ZGTP is kinda the benchmark right now for performance touring (along with the Atomic boots coming out now).

    I'd say something like the Cochise can work to an extent, but given that you're possibly spending most of the day booting out of Avalanche Gully or West Peak, I'd argue that it's too heavy for everyday use. And if someone isn't skiing that type of terrain, there's no need for such a burly boot.

    Skis are where I do tend to go heavier sometimes...but that's to make up for ski technique deficiencies. Over the NH winter I skied a lot on Rustler 11s, Tectons and ZGTPs...and that seemed pretty great for everything I did. I do love a light ski often, but there's also something really fun about a bit of metal giving significantly more stability to a ski. Skis like the Rustlers and Mindbenders are pretty powerful yet not too punishing when you mess up. If you're fit, a ski like that is pretty manageable on the up (but not if you load it up with a Shift and a true beef boot).

    There's quite a few skis now in that class of light resort/heavy touring skis...with a bit of discernment about weight you can totally get a high performance ski under you that won't destroy your day when ascending. For instance, I picked up a pair of the Corvus (normal version), and for only a couple hundred more grams than the Freebird, you get a really powerful ski (although one that will beat me up when I'm not on point).

    Lastly, I think in clothing and backpacks lots of people could make really big gains in efficiency and weight saving. Touring in shells, using backpacks that need to be removed at every transition and dressing like it's resort skiing are all totally unnecessary I reckon. Soft shell gear, skimo packs and staying on the move are underrated. Maybe when I get around to it I'll do a video on clothing and packing :thumbs:
     
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  40. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Couldn’t agree more. It’s like Homer ruining TWO perfectly good jackets!

    [​IMG]

    Yeah the heavier ski pushes the binding weight percentage down but that’s still OK, and with a boot that’s too light for the ski it’s not a cardinal sin and just stops you short from reaching the potential of the ski, but that’s fine if you go in to it with eyes wide open, and as you mentioned you’re still somewhat benefiting from a burlier ski if that’s your aim.
     
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  41. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    It’s all about balance.

    And the right level of light is right.
     
  42. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yes that’s our main goal.
     
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  43. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator

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    It helps being under 70 kg too :out:
     
  44. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    Isn’t everyone?
     
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  45. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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  46. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator

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    Says the man with the 10cm positive ape factor .
     
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  47. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Like several folks here I’m still waiting for the advent of light (NTN) Tele boot.

    Hence I chose a heavyish 75mm binding (Axl) to enjoy using a lightish boot (Excursion), with a light ski (UltraVector BC) and (generally) no skin- weight penalty. But I look forward to an excuse to get a light tech toe binding in the future.
     
  48. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    Social distancing please!
     
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  49. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    LOL
     
  50. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Case in point, somebody just bought a Wayback 96 but put a Kingpin on it and has a Lange XT Free 120.

    Ski weight: 1332g
    Boot weight: 1990g (149% of ski weight)
    Binding weight: 768g (57% of ski weight)

    Gut feel is that the boot and binding is too heavy, numbers confirm it.
     
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