Question Best edge angles for PB skis

axellotta

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Hi all, got a quick question that I'd like your opinions on please.

I picked up a set of Madshus Epochs yesterday that I want to prep for the EPIC season that will be upon us shortly (truly coming folks, truly. I can feel it in my arthritic toe or something like that).

That is, to set or not to set edge angles different than the 90 degrees from the factory for back-country use. I have a Beast 1 degree base angle tool and a Swix 88 degree side angle tool that I have used on my resort skis, and before I start merrily filing my edges on the Epochs I'd be interested in what other people are thinking.

The Epoch has a negative pattern so I would be able to get a consistent base angle the full length of the edge without pattern interference or damage. That said, I could transition from 0 degree base angle along the pattern to a 1 degree angle at the tip and tail which would give relief in these areas whilst keeping a super sharp edge beside the boot (for edging on boilerplate, especially with the 88 degree edge angle).

Or would you all leave well enough alone and leave both the base and edge angles as they are, save for de-tuning the tips and tails with the gummy-stone?

Cheers in advance!
 

Fozzie Bear

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What the factory says. Seriously, the manufacturers spend time working these things out and to change the edge and base bevel from this can make them unskiable. Trust me, i had a once in a lifetime ski trip in artic regions become a once in a lifetime trip with snow and no skiing as a well meaning ski shop did a general 1/2 tune (or something) rather than the specified tune. Caveat, none of this applies if you are such a shyte skier that you couldn't buy a turn in a month of Sundays.
 

telecrag

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IMO PB are such noodles, it doesn't matter what you do, just ski!

I always enjoy a PB ski, sometimes it even removes all the rust!
 
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axellotta

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What the factory says. Seriously, the manufacturers spend time working these things out and to change the edge and base bevel from this can make them unskiable. Trust me, i had a once in a lifetime ski trip in artic regions become a once in a lifetime trip with snow and no skiing as a well meaning ski shop did a general 1/2 tune (or something) rather than the specified tune. Caveat, none of this applies if you are such a shyte skier that you couldn't buy a turn in a month of Sundays.

Firstly let me say that I’m really sorry that said ski shop f*#ked your skis for a trip like that, it would of sucked hardcore.

That said, I do disagree with your comments about ski manufacturers knowing the best angle as this is highly dependant on the conditions. Cutting trail though a European forest glade with ankle deep powder is quite different than trying to get purchase on the boilerplate on the saddle from Nelse. Add to this, the wide variety of cutting/honing paraphernalia available. Happy to be corrected, but my understanding is that most manufacturers just give you a 90 degree edge and a 0 deg base angle as it is the starting point (and most cost effective to make).
 
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axellotta

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Factory settings good - especially for an edge on boilerplate.
Before I harass Peter at Snow Trek and Travel again (he is the Oz agent for Madshus), do you know what the specified angles are for this ski? Nothing listed from Madshus online that I can find with general googling.
 

Chaeron

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Fozzie Bear

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.... Happy to be corrected, but my understanding is that most manufacturers just give you a 90 degree edge and a 0 deg base angle as it is the starting point (and most cost effective to make).

Nope, AFAIK base and edge bevels (and binding mounting position) are usually determined after much testing as to what works best. And it is amazing what a small difference can make, turning a ski from a world beater into a fence post. From my own reference library Now a bit out of date:

Atomic:
ALL MODELS: 1,3
Race Stock (year?): 0.5,1.5

Blizzard:
Email from factory 17.10.08 (courtesy of Gary Cline)
All models: 0.5,2
Wolfgang Leitner
Blizzard Sport GmbH

DPS
Lotus: 2,1
Wailer & Cassair 1.5,1

Dynastar:
2005 Dynastar Legend 8000: 1,2

G3
Email from Paul Palfreyman

All G3 skis: 1,1

Stockli:
07/08 & 08/09 Laser 4D Race Series FIS SL & GS: 1.1.5
2006 Stormrider DP: 1,1
2006 Stormrider XL: 1,2
2007 Laser SL: 0.5,3
2007 Laser GS: 0.5,3
2008 Laser SC: 1,1.5

Email from Stockli: Most Stöckli skis have a factory base bevel of 1° and a side bevel of 1° to 2°, most common is 2°. For the World Cup skis we use a bevel of 0.5° (Base) and 2 or 3 ° side, most common is 3°.

Volkl:
Most models 1,2


If
.... most manufacturers just give you a 90 degree edge and a 0 deg base angle as it is the starting point
, most skis would be unskiable and there would be a lot of pissed off ski purchasers.
 
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Fozzie Bear

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Before I harass Peter at Snow Trek and Travel again (he is the Oz agent for Madshus), do you know what the specified angles are for this ski? Nothing listed from Madshus online that I can find with general googling.

Madshus is owned by K2 Sports. Email K2, they will tell you.
 
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Chaeron

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Two small metal rulers - one laid against the base, one against the edge - easy to determine by eye whether more or less than 90.

or set the tool and put against the edge and estimate the discrepancy...
 

axellotta

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Madshus is owned by K2 Sports. Email K2, they will tell you.
K2 non responsive at the moment, I contacted them a few weeks back on another issue. They pushed me back to Peter who I'm sure is sick of the sound of my voice by now...
 

axellotta

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Nope, AFAIK base and edge bevels (and binding mounting position) are usually determined after much testing as to what works best. And it is amazing what a small difference can make, turning a ski from a world beater into a fence post. From my own reference library Now a bit out of date:

Atomic:
ALL MODELS: 1,3
Race Stock (year?): 0.5,1.5

Blizzard:
Email from factory 17.10.08 (courtesy of Gary Cline)
All models: 0.5,2
Wolfgang Leitner
Blizzard Sport GmbH

DPS
Lotus: 2,1
Wailer & Cassair 1.5,1

Dynastar:
2005 Dynastar Legend 8000: 1,2

G3
Email from Paul Palfreyman

All G3 skis: 1,1

Stockli:
07/08 & 08/09 Laser 4D Race Series FIS SL & GS: 1.1.5
2006 Stormrider DP: 1,1
2006 Stormrider XL: 1,2
2007 Laser SL: 0.5,3
2007 Laser GS: 0.5,3
2008 Laser SC: 1,1.5

Email from Stockli: Most Stöckli skis have a factory base bevel of 1° and a side bevel of 1° to 2°, most common is 2°. For the World Cup skis we use a bevel of 0.5° (Base) and 2 or 3 ° side, most common is 3°.

Volkl:
Most models 1,2


If , most skis would be unskiable and there would be a lot of pissed off ski purchasers.

Good to know. I was under the impression that it was only race skis that came from the factory with special angles, but I now stand corrected. Thanks.
 

skifree

A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe
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In blind tests most people using hire skis could not determine what edge angles they had by skiing.

Most folks who felt the edges were blunt or needed a different angle where wrong, it was their skiing and to some extent there expectations.

I had some folks come in a rave how happy they were with the edges on skis I had slated for and edge job when they back in the shop as I felt they were due.

So it’s a interesting question.

Personally if I’m doing it by hand I usually set up flat on the base, maybe 1 up if the pattern forces it. Then square or max 2 in on the sides. It depends a bit on the ski, the sidewalls and how many chunks there are to pull out of the edges.

In more recent years I’ve had Adi at Perisher do it as part of an overall tune and Ive never asked him what angles he sets up. What ever it is it seems to work and any failings are really with my skiing or ski selection. If you choose a 112 rocket ship ski on a boiler plate day you are in for some entertainment.
 
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axellotta

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In blind tests most people using hire skis could not determine what edge angles they had by skiing.

Most folks who felt the edges were blunt or needed a different angle where wrong, it was their skiing and to some extent there expectations.

I had some folks come in a rave how happy they were with the edges on skis I had slated for and edge job when they back in the shop as I felt they were due.

So it’s a interesting question.

Personally if I’m doing it by hand I usually set up flat on the base, maybe 1 up if the pattern forces it. Then square or max 2 in on the sides. It depends a bit on the ski, the sidewalls and how many chunks there are to pull out of the edges.

In more recent years I’ve had Adi at Perisher do it as part of an overall tune and Ive never asked him what angles he sets up. What ever it is it seems to work and any failings are really with my skiing or ski selection. If you choose a 112 rocket ship ski on a boiler plate day you are in for some entertainment.
Thanks for this info, and to be clear I'm not Zali Steggall and am not convinced I'd be able to tell the difference between 0 and 1 degree anyhow. My original question was not for the purpose of being a edge nerd or a pillock, but rather was there a downside to taking a little off both the base and the edge (specifically for BC touring), being that I already own a 1 degree base and 88 degree edge guides in my small maintenance kit and would like to keep using at least the 88 degree for my diamond stone rather than buy another.
 

bigmac

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I let Adj do base angles. If I am waxing and touching up skis for family I put black texta on a cm of edge and just touch (only removing the texta) at various angles until it removes texta evenly. I then know what angle to touch up with.
 
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skifree

A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe
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Thanks for this info, and to be clear I'm not Zali Steggall and am not convinced I'd be able to tell the difference between 0 and 1 degree anyhow. My original question was not for the purpose of being a edge nerd or a pillock, but rather was there a downside to taking a little off both the base and the edge (specifically for BC touring), being that I already own a 1 degree base and 88 degree edge guides in my small maintenance kit and would like to keep using at least the 88 degree for my diamond stone rather than buy another.
I suggest you continue as planned. Then test and adjust if you do not like it.
 
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telecrag

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I must admit, I have never even bothered tuning any of my PB skis, I will walk a section of the cheesegrater on them.

My resort skis get one or two tunes a season, if they get noticeably twitchy they go in. Now bits of edge are coming off, I need a new pair.

I do run a file over all of them from time to time.

But I just ski for fun as a hack, Im sure it makes a difference, and someone more nuanced would be horrified if they had a go on my skis.
 
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telecrag

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Id just use the tools you have, if you are happy with what they do on your other skis, same same, so long as it doesn't interfere with the pattern. PB and performance are opposing terms IMO, they are a full compromise to start with. That said, I still like them from time to time, this year for sure. It was years before I even had a pair with metal edges.
 
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axellotta

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Id just use the tools you have, if you are happy with what they do on your other skis, same same, so long as it doesn't interfere with the pattern. PB and performance are opposing terms IMO, they are a full compromise to start with. That said, I still like them from time to time, this year for sure. It was years before I even had a pair with metal edges.
After way too much time spent thinking about this, that's probably the approach I'm going to take. Based on my experience with my previous skis, conversations with ski techs, reading posts on other forums and ski tool company's websites (and of course the good advice here) I'm going to set the base angle at 1 deg. This is primarily because I do wish to attempt to Tele on them, and although fine for pure touring a 0 degree base edge will by all accounts be a nightmare for initiating turns.

The edge angle will be 88 degrees, not because it is my preference, but because that is the tool I have and a new 89 degree angle is stupidly expensive for what it is IMHO. Also 2 degrees on the sides seems pretty standard for most skis from the manufacturers and is listed as middle of the road for 'all mountain use' on ski tool company websites. Yes the edges will be a little too sharp for touring and require touching up a little more often than a pure 90 degree but at least I'll get great purchase on boilerplate... I will use the gummy to detune the tips and tails a little further inwards than I normally would to compensate.

That is unless anyone has a 89 degree angle guide they no longer need and would like to sell cheaply?

Cheers all!
 

Ziggy

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I've found most of my PB skis come with around 2 degrees base angle but on those and every other ski I've tuned it's inconsistent on each ski. So I've just filed to make it consistent leaving the side angle alone.

When I get a base grind done on resort tele skis the techs typically say they too go with the factory angle unless the owner has a preference.
 

axellotta

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I bit the bullet and sheepishly had a chat to Peter at Snow Trek and Travel. He suggested 1 degree base, 2 degrees side. He does this for all touring / turning skis such as the Epoch and Annum to assist with turn initiation. He is the Madshus Australia agent so I'm inclined to trust his judgement.
 
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