BottomUporTopDown? Tele Updates

DPS Driver

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Jul 18, 2014
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I too have watched Renee’s videos the top seven mistakes of Telemark and felt they were patches to a possible problem rather than aimed at better technique.
Oh! Come on Zac. Now your just opening this right up.

The top 7 mistakes. Oh! Lordy, Lordy, Lordy.
 

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
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I've been doing some whole body skiing and I think my turns have really improved.
Yes, people really do come to us like that. A great "before" demo.
One turn was correctly timed, no doubt accidentally.
First we get them to leave their poles and not rise.
They do not turn at all !
 

Untele-whippet

beard stroker
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Yes, people really do come to us like that. A great "before" demo.
One turn was correctly timed, no doubt accidentally.
First we get them to leave their poles and not rise.
They do not turn at all !
I always leave the Poles at home.
07D57BB3-B886-45F0-913E-744E4DCAF79F.jpeg

Can’t trust them with the kiddies
 

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
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Yes, people really do come to us like that. !
And about half of them are telemarkers . Usually with massive amounts of stem initiation.
We respect their anonymity. They tend to be earnest and shy. They know that something is missing.
KL pointed out the reduced knee bend needed for similar turns. Compare Rene with his pupil in this regard.
Breakthrough or Bulldust ?
 
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bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
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Since others have responded seriously I might as well too. BBB's ideas fall over because BBB is trying to make skiing fit inside snowboarding. With snowboarding you can't create much turning force with the legs so you use your hips.
With skiing you can use your legs, in fact to create knee angulation you must twist your legs (hinge joints only flex on one plane). Twisting the legs is faster, makes independent weighting easier, creates separation and allows knee angulation..
A general motherhood statement.
"Bend ze knees" with steroids. But try it on one ski.

Maybe top loaders are not the people living in lala land .
Excessive leg twist is a good way to ski ?
Not according to PMTS.
"The founders of PMTS.org feel that ski instructors in general aren't benefiting from the evolution of skiing and ski instruction."
 

bawbawbel

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That vid is a perfect example of what happens when you shift your Centre Of Mass out wide. Any mug can do it on flat easy predictable terrain like that. Correcting an overstatement in muscle coordination and making it look smooth is achievable but why do it ? - Ballet is out of fashion BBB.
Another mother hooder.
If kids can control their turns from the top it is a crime to thrash it out of them.
They can sense the fall line in our wedge with their eyes closed.
Far more sensitive than listening for snow noise, I can assure you.
 

sbm_

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Ultimate you can ski however you like...on a gentle groomed run. Sure, initiate direction changes by throwing your arms around, why not kick turns, jumping double pole plants, or just lie down, spin around on your back, and get back up!

And yeah maybe people can get too caught up on textbook technique and not worry about having fun and mucking around and just skiing.

But show me a clip of patented top-down BBB technique, on a 30 degree off-piste black run. Unless he's going to claim the Cartwheel(tm) as the hidden suppressed technique for steep skiing?
 

Kletterer

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Listening for Snow noise ? Relevent coaching terminology or vague allegorical fantasy ?
 

Kletterer

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BBB Your approach to coaching may have quicker immediate cognitive feedback than other approaches but its bound to eventualy result in a lower broad spectrum physical ability.
 

bawbawbel

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Listening for Snow noise ? Relevent coaching terminology or vague allegorical fantasy ?
It is important that the Whole Body technique is also superior with regards to safety with beginners descending in unplanned whiteout or cloud.
The top loaded wedge is safest because the fall line can be sensed by the difference in pressure between the skis as they come around. The "pizza" as presently taught does not have this ability because the skier CREATES pressure from leaning out, which overwhelms the feedback.
Hearing the skis speed up might be a bit late.
Hearing the wind in your hair might definitely be a bit late. :)
 

bawbawbel

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The obvious question is "How is it that you claim that kids body initiate correctly when one of our most respected forum members has just demonstrated that he doesn't get it ? "
A: Transition is the point when skis flatten and edge change begins. Small upper body movement in the direction of the new turn must be stopped at that precise moment to be effective with leg twisting styles involving linking.
A Gliding Wedge has a greatly extended time when this can occur. Anywhere in a traverse or the top of the turn will work.
And it does !
 

Telemark Phat

Pass the butter
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Geee, never had a lesson in my life (and I’m sure it shows) but I’m still loving every second on the mountain just having fun on the skis.
One good thing about steep skiing, if you live to ski another day you know you did it right :)
The best thing about skiing is it gives you the freedom to make it what you want it to be.
 

Telezacski

A Local
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Ah yes, expert, advanced double whole body technique.
B3096281-791E-4AAD-9934-CBCE21B1271A.gif

Is one whole body technique on 2 skis the same as 2 whole body techniques on one ski?
Is 1x 2 the same as 2 x 1?
Is 2 the answer or has the synergy eclipsed the sum of the parts?

where do you find all your little videos and pictures, apart from the obvious answer.... on the internet.

you do seem to find some great videos
 

bawbawbel

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Jun 22, 2000
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Are you seriously trying to revolutionise skiing, backwards? Or just intrigued by the differing styles?
Moving on.
I have shown desperate skiers, each with their own laborious solution to an instruction system that has failed them because it has had a fascination for the feet to the point where no student can understand, let alone emulate, basic moves such as the Pedal Hop or a powered top of the turn.
Hopefully, my input will hasten the day when we move on to a more balanced style, especially for A/T and tele turns, which are in danger of being abandoned due to a stifled style.
 

Kletterer

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Moving on.
I have shown desperate skiers, each with their own laborious solution to an instruction system that has failed them because it has had a fascination for the feet to the point where no student can understand, let alone emulate, basic moves such as the Pedal Hop or a powered top of the turn.
Hopefully, my input will hasten the day when we move on to a more balanced style, especially for A/T and tele turns, which are in danger of being abandoned due to a stifled style.
Hop turns are basic ? Are you taking folks down very steep couloirs ?
 

bawbawbel

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To kill the tele stem, which reappears as soon as we leave the beginner slope, it is important to have a simple exercise like the Hop which the bottom turner simply CANNOT perform. This punctures the superior attitude which develops when they master the stem initiation in lessons.
Otherwise they may never graduate to powder tele, with it's necessary top turning. Which would be sad.
 
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dossa5

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I think you will find that with his l/h wind up he nearly over rotates but at that level of skiing its prob a non issue.
Its his thighs that make it all happen BBB. Period.
Sick pow.
 
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Telezacski

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To kill the tele stem, which reappears as soon as we leave the beginner slope, it is important to have a simple exercise like the Hop which the bottom turner simply CANNOT perform. This punctures the superior attitude which develops when they master the stem initiation in lessons.
Otherwise they may never graduate to powder tele, with it's necessary top turning. Which would be sad.

again Bawbaw you have made a statement and posted a video, you haven’t worked through the video showing if it supports or discounts your theory. You haven’t quoted the video or the athlete.

for all the reader knows the athlete may just have an extravagant arm action, because they like to make the tele turn look fancier, they may only use the arms for those two turns (also not the same arm action as your earlier post) the athlete may also publicly support or discount your theory.

without this information we can not use this information, to form an opinion! This is basic,
 

MickM

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again Bawbaw you have made a statement and posted a video, you haven’t worked through the video showing if it supports or discounts your theory. You haven’t quoted the video or the athlete.

for all the reader knows the athlete may just have an extravagant arm action, because they like to make the tele turn look fancier, they may only use the arms for those two turns (also not the same arm action as your earlier post) the athlete may also publicly support or discount your theory.

without this information we can not use this information, to form an opinion! This is basic,
^^this.

I try to understand but never sure if BBB is agreeing or disagreeing with things. Just a few simple pointers and we might get the message. Also, some of the video's re wholebody (eg Wedeln) are so old with totally difeerent equipment I feel are almost irrelevant. Who wants to ski like that these days with such a narrow stance?

I want to learn, but it is exhausting trying to decipher the message.
 

telecrag

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This is the thing, they are basically saying that the teaching was correct 30 years ago, and not now.

This is not to say that older techniques have nothing to offer the modern skier.
 
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MickM

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Gordon, Vic
This is the thing, they are basically saying that the teaching was correct 30 years ago, and not now.

This is not to say that older techniques have nothing to offer the modern skier.
Yeah, I get that they are saying everything is wrong with the teaching today. in reality, maybe the best approach is a blend of different techniques.

For me, when people preach that their way is "the only way", it can get tiresome.

I see many great skiers on the hill with different techniques.
 
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bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
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Jun 22, 2000
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To be perfectly honest, after reading this rabble. If I showed up for a lesson and BBB presented as my instructor I'd ask if they had a high cliff I could jump from.
Fck me. How to suck the fun out of skiing.
Or, How To Make It Click !
Buying the best skis in the world might not make you subconsciously scream wit joy at evry turn.
Seems that some here can feel it, hence the hornets' nest.
 

Telemark Phat

Pass the butter
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^^this.

I try to understand but never sure if BBB is agreeing or disagreeing with things. Just a few simple pointers and we might get the message. Also, some of the video's re wholebody (eg Wedeln) are so old with totally difeerent equipment I feel are almost irrelevant. Who wants to ski like that these days with such a narrow stance?

I want to learn, but it is exhausting trying to decipher the message.
If you want to learn ignore BBB, he has NFI.
 
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Telemark Phat

Pass the butter
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I think you will find that with his l/h wind up he nearly over rotates but at that level of skiing its prob a non issue.
Its his thighs that make it all happen BBB. Period.
Sick pow.
When you sink that low you lose a lot of ability to twist your legs. In deep snow there can be too much resistance to twisting your legs and sometimes you need to get the upper body involved. Finally in deep snow there are less bad side effects from twisting your upper body than there is on firmer or shallower snow, so quite often people who ski mainly in deep snow develop a style with a lot of upper body rotation.
 
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telecrag

Old n' Crusty
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I enjoy that when skiing heavy wet snow, I can lean my body waaay over, as the snow is heavy enough to hold it. Technically totally incorrect, and for good reason.

Fun but!
 
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