BottomUporTopDown? Tele Updates

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Ski Pass
Jun 22, 2000
4,653
386
263
104
vic
Do you not find it concerning that you need to fire up an old windows pc to find support for your theory? A pc that well outdates modern skis and techniques.
I now block Facebook and Google on my goto computer. As requested by Julian. When he dies I will go dark.
Maybe your conscience will not affect your enjoyment of the mountains. So be it.
 

skifree

A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe
Moderator
Ski Pass
Jul 13, 1998
33,407
34,499
1,063
Middle Oz
But the tele tyros I see and sometimes teach have glaring inefficiencies.

Yep, there is a lot of poor tele or could be improved tele about. One of the causes is learning tele off friends, uncles, the old bloke who has been teaching tele in the club for the last 40 years. None of whom has undertaken any study as to how to tele well or teach tele. It is actually a significant barrier to learning tele and tele expanding.

tele tyros I see and sometimes teach
Could you elaborate on your teaching of tele?
 

skifree

A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe
Moderator
Ski Pass
Jul 13, 1998
33,407
34,499
1,063
Middle Oz
earlier awareness of deliberate anticipation movement in tele courses

This is just one of a whole lot of things that are taught to get tele working. It's just not the be all and end all. Just a small part of the complex jigsaw.

But everyone is different and some people need more and some people need less discussion of this point. And it may not be expressed in the same words you use.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kletterer

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Ski Pass
Jun 22, 2000
4,653
386
263
104
vic
Could you elaborate on your teaching of tele?
Very basic. I cure their frozen upper body and remove the tele jumps or tele stems.
That is, if they are willing to admit that their style is less than perfect.
Many don't.
 

Telemark Phat

Pass the butter
Ski Pass
Jun 21, 2008
22,181
22,824
1,063
45
Jindabyne
www.telemarkphat.org
I've been doing some whole body skiing and I think my turns have really improved.

I just had another look. I'm blown away, I managed perfect anticipation every turn. Strong upper body rotation completed before the transition. I encourage everyone to do what I did and book a lesson with @bawbawbel right now so you can ski as well as I do in the above video.
 

Telezacski

A Local
Ski Pass
Mar 19, 2010
6,915
13,617
563
I now block Facebook and Google on my goto computer. As requested by Julian. When he dies I will go dark.
Maybe your conscience will not affect your enjoyment of the mountains. So be it.

maybe read your posts as none of this makes sense or is in any context.

and for the record, my conscious is very clear and yep I enjoy the mountains.
 

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Ski Pass
Jun 22, 2000
4,653
386
263
104
vic
I just had another look. I'm blown away, I managed perfect anticipation every turn. Strong upper body rotation completed before the transition. I encourage everyone to do what I did and book a lesson with @bawbawbel right now so you can ski as well as I do in the above video.
Soo much before the transition !
I love it. With your permission I will feature it in our beginner orientation.
That reverse shoulder movement during the turn (a throwback to the 1960 skid style, once taught but best forgotten ) is typical of a first whole body attempt by a beginner.
Although not usually so forcefully superimposed on the outmoded leg steering dogma.
I generally record it for the student who is then sufficiently chastened to accept starting at the beginning, the evenly weighted gliding wedge.
 

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Ski Pass
Jun 22, 2000
4,653
386
263
104
vic
Moving on.
Why should you at least give equal emphasis in your skiing career to Wholebody as well as to Leg Rotation ?
Because Leg Rotation needs two skis on the snow.
Whereas Wholebody opens the door to topshelf adventure.
All the One Edge techniques.
Snowboard. Monoski. Skwal. Teleboard. Monotele.
serveimage
 
Remove ads with a
Ski Pass

rowdyflat

One of Us
Ski Pass
Jun 21, 2003
4,744
6,979
363
67
Yackandandah NE Victoria
" Yep, there is a lot of poor tele or could be improved tele about. One of the causes is learning tele off friends, uncles, the old bloke who has been teaching tele in the club for the last 40 years. None of whom has undertaken any study as to how to tele well or teach tele. It is actually a significant barrier to learning tele and tele expanding."
Have to agree every year for nearly 20 yrs I go skiing at a certain place and the same suspects who have been bleating about improving their tele but are just bushwalking on skis, + in another 20yrs if alive ,they will still be hopeless because they never get lessons , never focus on their faults or push themselves into harder terrain or session it or practice consciously.
Much the same with the local mtbikers , they dont have lessons and stay in their comfort zone forever.
If it keeps them happy .....
 
  • Like
Reactions: skifree

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Ski Pass
Jun 22, 2000
4,653
386
263
104
vic
" Yep, there is a lot of poor tele or could be improved tele about. One of the causes is learning tele off friends, uncles, the old bloke who has been teaching tele in the club for the last 40 years. None of whom has undertaken any study as to how to tele well or teach tele. It is actually a significant barrier to learning tele and tele expanding."
Have to agree every year for nearly 20 yrs I go skiing at a certain place and the same suspects who have been bleating about improving their tele but are just bushwalking on skis, + in another 20yrs if alive ,they will still be hopeless because they never get lessons , never focus on their faults or push themselves into harder terrain or session it or practice consciously.
Much the same with the local mtbikers , they dont have lessons and stay in their comfort zone forever.
If it keeps them happy .....
Maybe nobody here really cares about tele expanding. They care about being able to stay on their personal plateau and not fall off the edge.
Posts here give clues about that. Nice if your tele fells smoother and needs less knee bend. You can call that progress, and that should be enough..
 

Kletterer

Thredbo Doughnut Tragic
Moderator
Nov 26, 2014
22,702
27,083
1,063
Canberra
@skifree Dont do it bro. BBB you need to go back to this in order to understand maintaining all important gradual pressure. Upper body shinanigans messes with maintaining gradual pressure/ stability through the turn.
 

KL.

One of Us
Aug 4, 2005
1,609
186
213
Yes, bringing the outside hip forward (transition) so that you can steer with your feet and edge with your ankles... that works too (as long as the upper body is facing down the fall line, ie outside chest/shoulder are already forward or at least moving to a forward position and not being left behind)
 

skifree

A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe
Moderator
Ski Pass
Jul 13, 1998
33,407
34,499
1,063
Middle Oz
Only in Victoria, just need an excuse and maybe even some free accom.
You might need to pay me to go to Buller on a weekend....

This is making it too hard, Falls or Hotham could work at a pinch. But I'm not paying accommodation.

Let me know during the season when you are up NSW way and we'll go for a tele.
 

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Ski Pass
Jun 22, 2000
4,653
386
263
104
vic
BBB you need to go back to this in order to understand maintaining all important gradual pressure. Upper body shinanigans messes with maintaining gradual pressure/ stability through the turn.
By "Gradual Pressure" you no doubt mean producing a forward and rotary movement of the ski to maintain centering as the ski takes it's longer path relative to the body.
Yes, it is important that the hip comes forward to drive that adjustment.
"With the shoulder" as KL points out.
We have reached the half way house.
The "shinanigans" before transition makes the "pressure" occur without physical input.
Some would consider that to be an excellent situation.
Our demonstrator has an untrained upper body as demonstrated by movement of his weak side.
 

MickM

A Local
Ski Pass
Aug 15, 2001
5,044
4,963
563
Gordon, Vic
@skifree Dont do it bro. BBB you need to go back to this in order to understand maintaining all important gradual pressure. Upper body shinanigans messes with maintaining gradual pressure/ stability through the turn.
Absolute gun skier. Has a good vid on Dolphin turns too. Makes it look easy.
Buggered if I can do it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kletterer

Kletterer

Thredbo Doughnut Tragic
Moderator
Nov 26, 2014
22,702
27,083
1,063
Canberra
Absolute gun skier. Has a good vid on Dolphin turns too. Makes it look easy.
Buggered if I can do it.
Its not that hard if you apply yourself to it. It was one of the drills i utilise when getting accustomed to a new ski shape - demoing skis . Mix it up with skiing bumps on one ski and you are on your way to refinement.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MickM

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Ski Pass
Jun 22, 2000
4,653
386
263
104
vic
Its not that hard if you apply yourself to it. It was one of the drills i utilise when getting accustomed to a new ski shape - demoing skis . Mix it up with skiing bumps on one ski and you are on your way to refinement.
Mixing it up is right !
That drill will NOT get you skiing on one ski. Doesn't work with kids, won't work with you.
 

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Ski Pass
Jun 22, 2000
4,653
386
263
104
vic
Skiing on one ski I can do ok, it is the dolphin turns I struggle with.
Dolphin turns are an exaggerated version of the tip to tail progression within the turn that we have been talking about. Snowboarders know it as an ollie in a turn. And they do it much better.

If you are proficient on one ski, you are using top down. You are using angulation change and body twist to lead the ski.
First, Deb and her kids.
She was an Olympic skier. Of course, she can do anything on one ski.
But you will notice that she DOES NOT give a demonstration.
That is because she is constrained in classes by the deadly dogma for the drongoes. Bottom up.

The Javelin Turn is just a classy version of the old style swishing your tails back and forth.
It is also, however, a cunning way towards anticipation without invoking the banned upper body movement. You rotate your spare ski instead of your shoulders. :)
Harb would be horrified because the vital top half of the turn is effectively wasted by "maintaining the gradual pressure". Easy way to look good. Not good skiing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: teleroo

rowdyflat

One of Us
Ski Pass
Jun 21, 2003
4,744
6,979
363
67
Yackandandah NE Victoria
Very interesting bawbawbel, I am sure you are good at what you do but maybe we could have a separate progressive thread from the start of what an advanced telemark skier can practice ?
I am a bit lost and wonder if in the end some of it is a matter of style taste as well as efficiency as there is no really objective way to measure the outcome except smiles.
ie I am a long time skier , dont like the jack in the box[over] active US style much and like efficient energy usage without unnecessary movements .only jump when its super steep.
The person skiing thru the eastcoast woods is a good skier but seemed to be using more energy than necessary for the snow conditions.?
ie Side slope is to his right,
Good right arm back anticipation to get him over the hump of the turn from his left.
The turn from his right is bottom turn. What should he be doing there ?

Also Didnt quite get the bottom top turn bit despite being an ex surfer .
Also
Until I was videoed I didnt notice my arm movements were a bit different Left v Right.
Knew foot / boot were not totally symmetrical L V R cortex ?
 
  • Like
Reactions: bawbawbel

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Ski Pass
Jun 22, 2000
4,653
386
263
104
vic
Yes, "Bottom turns" as distinct from "Bottom Up turns" are more like giggle material.
I take my A/T equipment to teach telemarkers, and admit that most of the expert subtleties that they speak of are beyond my ken.
But not anticipation. (here he goes again).
Back to the most important telething in this whole thread.
Rene's "Elvis Style".
"Brings together Counter Rotation and Angulation. Don't focus on your edging here, focus on your Upper Body."
Not counter rotation within the turn, counter rotation to DRIVE the turn.
Actually try it ! You'll like it.
There you go. If you want more, I got nuthin. I would love to see yo'all fighting it out. :)
 

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Ski Pass
Jun 22, 2000
4,653
386
263
104
vic
Why teach in A/T gear?
Not only that, I wear SX70s cut down to give the necessary ankle freedom for exaggerated Wholebody drills.
I call them SX7s :)
Now you realize why equipment manufacturers were so keen on deleting all traces of our technique.
 

Telezacski

A Local
Ski Pass
Mar 19, 2010
6,915
13,617
563
Not only that, I wear SX70s cut down to give the necessary ankle freedom for exaggerated Wholebody drills.
I call them SX7s :)
Now you realize why equipment manufacturers were so keen on deleting all traces of our technique.

Hmmm sorry doesn’t answer the question, I will try and ask it a different way.

If you are teaching Telemark skiers to telemark why would you do this on A/T gear.

Is it not coaching 101? How can you show people through drills for telemark skiing if you are not on a tele right. Or can we assume these drills are not for Telemark skiers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: skifree

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Ski Pass
Jun 22, 2000
4,653
386
263
104
vic
Hmmm sorry doesn’t answer the question, I will try and ask it a different way.
If you are teaching Telemark skiers to telemark why would you do this on A/T gear.
Is it not coaching 101? How can you show people through drills for telemark skiing if you are not on a tele right. Or can we assume these drills are not for Telemark skiers.
Yes, coaching 101. "No, you do not need to get a pole to turn."
Must be because my "tele" skiers are not even up to the stage of bragging about their equipment. An A/T rig has the necessary support to master the funny feel of even weighting. As for turn control from the rear ski, would not matter for them which foot was in front.
 

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Ski Pass
Jun 22, 2000
4,653
386
263
104
vic
Could one of the moderators please move this thread to a different part of the forum? Clearly has nothing to to with skiing.
Why do you all consider elite telemarking to be a gift from the gods ?
I can understand that to some my approach is like calling MacDonalds a hamburger joint.
 

skifree

A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe
Moderator
Ski Pass
Jul 13, 1998
33,407
34,499
1,063
Middle Oz
Why do you all consider elite telemarking to be a gift from the gods ?
I can understand that to some my approach is like calling MacDonalds a hamburger joint.
We are still working out which alternative telemark universe you are operating in.
 

telecrag

Old n' Crusty
Ski Pass
Oct 12, 2007
33,200
51,144
1,063
I like the implication that the governing body is holding the sport back, by not teaching ancient techniques.

BBB is certainly an outlier, at least it gets you thinking, hahaha!
 

Telezacski

A Local
Ski Pass
Mar 19, 2010
6,915
13,617
563
I like the implication that the governing body is holding the sport back, by not teaching ancient techniques.

BBB is certainly an outlier, at least it gets you thinking, hahaha!

I like the implication that teaching telemarking on telemark skis would mean that tele markers can’t get the right feel.......
 

Telezacski

A Local
Ski Pass
Mar 19, 2010
6,915
13,617
563
For the record if I turned up for a tele lesson and the instructor didn’t have tele gear, I’m not sure I wouldn’t walk.

so can we assume you don’t own tele gear at all BBB, you have been asked this question before and ignored the answer.

so I am going to assume you don’t tele, don’t own tele gear and have adopted Rene Martin as an example of your beliefs being adopted in the tele world even though they don’t truly align.
 
  • Like
Reactions: skifree
Remove ads with a
Ski Pass

Log in

or Log in using
Remove ads with a
Ski Pass