BottomUporTopDown? Tele Updates

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Telezacski

A Local
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Mar 19, 2010
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Some dead ped is the only one who cares that we tele.

not so

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bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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vic
For the record if I turned up for a tele lesson and the instructor didn’t have tele gear, I’m not sure I wouldn’t walk.
So can we assume you don’t own tele gear at all BBB, you have been asked this question before and ignored the answer.
So I am going to assume you don’t tele, don’t own tele gear and have adopted Rene Martin as an example of your beliefs being adopted in the tele world even though they don’t truly align.
We are still working out which alternative telemark universe you are operating in.
I like the implication that the governing body is holding the sport back, by not teaching ancient techniques.
BBB is certainly an outlier, at least it gets you thinking, hahaha!
The ancients did not apply scientific analysis to their cut and try techniques, which worked OK after a fashion, but were not optimized.
Many telemark styles. I only claim that ours is the easiest, nothing more.
"You can't telemark on A/T gear " . Hmm.
What if the movement used in Rene-Martin's "Elvis", which reduces knee bend to half in an equivalent turn, was studied and optimized for several years, which we have done. You might end up with a "guru", with no vertical excursions at all in his turns.
 
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bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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vic
Looking for tips for our 1 day 101 course.
"Hips projecting around the turn"
"Planting your inside pole will help initiate the turn"
Hmm. So far so good.
Might need a bit more Elvis ?
 

Telezacski

A Local
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Mar 19, 2010
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Ummm

check your post #54 you promoted a style of pole plant which is inconsistent with the above. Previously and in your promoted Levi’s style (hockey stop turns) the inner arm is forward punching across the body, not the outer arm.

I also note this skier is on skating skis.

You refer to a collective, which I assume is an organisation or body that is promoting your suggested teaching style. Do they have any videos ? What’s the organisation called?
 
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bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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vic
Ummm
check your post #54 you promoted a style of pole plant which is inconsistent with the above. Previously and in your promoted Levi’s style (hockey stop turns) the inner arm is forward punching across the body, not the outer arm.
I also note this skier is on skating skis.
You refer to a collective, which I assume is an organisation or body that is promoting your suggested teaching style. Do they have any videos ? What’s the organisation called?
You are not really using any logic at all in your deconstruction of our probe into secret telemarkers' business.
In that post I said "Why is there such a variety of tele styles ?"
Actually, all the various anticipation moves attempt to achieve the above mentioned goal : "Hips projecting around the turn"
Please post any reference to that goal in your presumably extensive library of telenique.
We might then consider you a valuable contributor to an embryonic "organization" .
Although manuals created by committees tend to be top heavy and contradictory in their detail.
For instance, the PSIA manual is subject to strict copyright to prevent embarrassing leaks :)
 

Telezacski

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Sorry still confused our hips project around the turn correct, so turning left our right hip projects forward?
 
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Telemark Phat

Pass the butter
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Jun 21, 2008
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Ummm

check your post #54 you promoted a style of pole plant which is inconsistent with the above. Previously and in your promoted Levi’s style (hockey stop turns) the inner arm is forward punching across the body, not the outer arm.

I also note this skier is on skating skis.

You refer to a collective, which I assume is an organisation or body that is promoting your suggested teaching style. Do they have any videos ? What’s the organisation called?
I terminate my turns with an inside pole plant.
 

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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vic
I terminate my turns with an inside pole plant.
You are stuck on Newtonian physics. There is a moment in time and turns when inside and outside are indeterminate.
Consider Schrodinger's cat playing with a Mobius Strip.
Consider if a skate skiing telemarker is just dumping his hip.
Close observation of magic just makes it disappear, it seems.
Consider if a feet upper can just be turned upside down.
Elementary Einstein, my Dear Watson.

" A new topic has been published by Razie:
*Hip dump*
Expert skiers [[tipping | tip]] the skis on edge from the feet and ankles - many
skiers though have a tendency to stick the hips out, drop them into the turn and
help edging the skis that way - this is called *hip dumping*. It is not a good
idea and usually indicates some problems with the [[Stance alignment | setup]]
and [[stance]] or too many [[bad habits]].
See more... <http://www.effectiveskiing.com/wiki/ski.Topic:Hip_dump> "

* There is another dimension between rotating the hip and dumping the hip, maybe ?

"We flex the outside leg to release the previous turn and the inside leg to create the new turn: "

* Err... same leg, of course.....
 

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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vic
A new topic has been published by Razie:
*Hip dump*
"We flex the outside leg to release the previous turn and the inside leg to create the new turn: "

* ERR...same leg, of course *

I should wait until a suddenly perceptive old style skier says "Der, dat not wight, differunt legs !
It is good to see internet paywallers realize that they need to give something to avoid sinking into oblivion.
And Razie is pushing PMTS.
Yay!
 
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bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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vic
Sorry still confused our hips project around the turn correct, so turning left our right hip projects forward?
Yes, I am honored that you have gone past kneejerking.
The skate skier is an extreme example, because his only access to the usual sidecut effect is via ski bend .
Anticipation (before the lead change), transfers rotation to his skis and lets him gets that working ASAP. :)
 

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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vic
Ummm

check your post #54 you promoted a style of pole plant which is inconsistent with the above. Previously and in your promoted Levi’s style (hockey stop turns) the inner arm is forward punching across the body, not the outer arm.
A typical knee jerk based on superficial analysis of movement alone, rather than TIMING and movement.
No Hockey Stop occurs unless the "inner arm punching across the body" occurs much later, WITHIN the current turn rather than BEFORE it.
And that, my new friend, is Anticipation in a nut shell. :)
 

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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vic
The reality is, in any teaching there are multiple ways to teach and some people learn differently but I feel you are trying to push an alternative teaching method to replace the mainstream when it shouldnt
That is an erudite criticism.
I would suggest that it is impossible to get the efficient rounded turn with equal pressure throughout by using any other method unless you invoke edge carving or stick assist.
I said "You don't need a stick " because anticipation takes it's place.
Look behind you and question your "mainstream".
 

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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vic
Why do you not start with a specific analysis of the telemarking here in question? Then proceed to discuss what could be improved? Then proceed to how you would do this?
Instead of some fairly random statements about turn types.
Every style on our fyle has a common denominator, body movement to start the turn of the long ski instead of edges.
Maybe telemark would be best regarded as a dumbed down style for unfriendly terrain.
But even that is deliberately neglected in instruction.
 

skifree

A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe
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Every style on our fyle has a common denominator, body movement to start the turn of the long ski instead of edges.
Maybe telemark would be best regarded as a dumbed down style for unfriendly terrain.
But even that is deliberately neglected in instruction.


I think you will find many elements of what you talk about are actually included in current teaching. But not stressed as you seem bent on but more of part of a total package of elements that go into a core telemark style. And certainly non (that is alternative) core telemark style is also discussed, demonstrated and played with during instructor training and considered to be a part of teaching telemark.

Your discussion is variously interesting, some right, some just wrong, but mostly impenetrable. However if you took the trouble to undertake some APSI telemark instructor training and bothered to use telemark equipment you would find some clarity and would be able to provide better and more understandable advice.

You are welcome to consider telemark as a dumbed down style but this really is confirmation of an ignorance of it's flexibility and possible accomplishment when done well.
 

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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vic
I think you will find many elements of what you talk about are actually included in current teaching.
Well, let us look at a typical " Level 2" demonstration.
Maybe not this one, should be titled "Showoff Level Tele "

A smooth operator, for shor.
Tele Backwards does involve Whole Body. Note the effortless transitions.
Otherwise, a quite a lot of leaping around as the turns get tighter, due to ancient cross over transition and pole shock upweighting.
However, he does demonstrate 3 types of arm anticipation, but they are no doubt carryovers from his downhill career.
I bet that they don't show up in any post beginner tele course ?
 
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skifree

A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe
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I bet that they don't show up in any post beginner tele course ?
You can bet what you like, the only way for you to really know is to attend.

Are you posting videos or stills? They look like stills at this end but your comments seem to relate to videos.
 

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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vic
You can bet what you like, the only way for you to really know is to attend.
Are you posting videos or stills? They look like stills at this end but your comments seem to relate to videos.
So, you don't know ?
P.S. You need to click the arrow in the middle of the utube to start the video running.
 

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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vic
I know that I am being imperious to suggest that the magnificent men in the most interesting telemark thread do not quite realize that their greatest joy depends on an effortless production of a good turn shape.
The top of any turn needs effort to make it work.

"At 1:30 you see him consistently throwing his outside hand up to regain balance after moving way in and down the hill - playing with the limits."
The more important aspect of that move is that it frees him of the anticipatory pole plant of old by a BACKWARD rotary component in the fling of the arm and pole.
 
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