BottomUporTopDown? Tele Updates

skifree

A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe
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I know that I am being imperious to suggest that the magnificent men in the most interesting telemark thread do not quite realize that their greatest joy depends on an effortless production of a good turn shape.
The top of any turn needs effort to make it work.
"At 1:30 you see him consistently throwing his outside hand up to regain balance after moving way in and down the hill - playing with the limits."
The more important aspect of that move is that it frees him of the anticipatory pole plant of old by a BACKWARD rotary component in the fling of the arm and pole.

Technically a pretty ordinary style, it could do with a lot of work. He gets away with it by being so strong rather than finesse.
 

Telemark Phat

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Looks like he is destabilising his core to me.
Technically a pretty ordinary style, it could do with a lot of work. He gets away with it by being so strong rather than finesse.
His skiing is really strong and is very Norweigian in style. His arm action is a result of how he is performing his crossunder rather than actually driving anything.

He uses a lot of inclination early in the turn to create early edging. This heavy reliance on inclination early locks him on edge and makes it very difficult for him to release his edges to start the next turn. To release his edges he needs to forcefully push his body into the next turn. That forceful push combined with aggressive early inclination leaves his outside hand behind. The action is in how he moves his mass across his skis during the initiation, not how his arms are waving around.
 

rowdyflat

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Interesting being an armchair critic.
I agree his upper body is a bit rowdy at times but his strength and angulation are amazing.
If I was 20 yrs younger i would like to be like that.
 

Kletterer

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When i was a young lad- first time skiing deep in Austria my brother gave me advice on turning in the powder. I was struggling with a For/Aft - tip angulation combo problem. He said just to get accustomed to searching for the new motor skills required. i should try throwing my arms up like the guy in above video. It actual did help me find how to dial in my for/aft - angulation sweet spot ( amplified the success/ failure process). It was a forceful approach to establishing an associative outcome. Subsequent tips on how to smooth it out without the Jiggery pokery got me to a comfy autonomous stage.
 

skifree

A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe
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Interesting being an armchair critic.
I agree his upper body is a bit rowdy at times but his strength and angulation are amazing.
If I was 20 yrs younger i would like to be like that.

I'm thinking he is using way more inclination than angulation.

The skier in @Telemark Phat 's clip is maxing out his angulation then getting over further with inclination.
 

bawbawbel

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Jun 22, 2000
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I will do a definitive analysis on dat Norweigen , including slow motion GIF, shortly.
I think that it will demonstrate how his rowdy upper body consists of very specific and perfectly timed actions which drive the top of his turns, rather than just "leaving his arm behind".
In the meantime, is telemark style itself being left behind ? (specially when using a ridge to advantage )
 

bawbawbel

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Can you remember tha actual resort and run and year when you first made some of those "advanced" turns ?
From "up/down left, up/down right" to "up/downleft, up/downright" ?
It was at once a revelation. Felt so satisfactory. :):):)
 
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Kletterer

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Can you remember tha actual resort and run and year when you first made some of those "advanced" turns ?
From "up/down left, up/down right" to "up/downleft, up/downright" ?
It was at once a revelation. Felt so satisfactory. :):):)
Are you asking me about my post ?
 

bawbawbel

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Of all the fashionable "demo" skiers (slide the top of the turn), SM is the most fluid.
To copy his style would be an excellent exercise for any constipated telemarker.
His secret is in the hip anticipation which I have been warbling about throughout this thread, with the usual lack of response.
IN HIS OWN WORDS:
" . I do not try to use the inside to help the release, or not consciously anyways. I see it more as a combination of flattening the ski progressively, and to stop resisting the pressure to let my hips come out of the inside of the turn and towards the next arc (or next place i would like the next turn to start). "
 

bawbawbel

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So, how to tele like a Norwegian ?
First, we must avoid what is the first "rule" taught in tele.
If the lead change is instant, there is no chance of timing our anticipation, which must be effective DURING the lead change.
 

bawbawbel

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We next wish to highlight the most obvious deficiency in technique caused by the inability of the local tele tribe to understand, let alone apply, upper body turn initiation.
Lead change is delayed "until we cross the fall line" , in all early instruction.
Not a good way forward, surely.
 

bawbawbel

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"Pushing a particular barrow to death and obsessing on the minutiae is naive and self serving."
Harsh words, indeed.
But this "minutiae" is actually a majoritiae which, as can be realized from the responses here, simply cannot be understood by some in spite of my many different approaches and simplifications.
Once a feet upper, always a feet upper, it seems.
Doomed to long turns or stems.
Note the second skier falling back to a stem as he attempts to emulate the "needs work :) " maestro.
 

bawbawbel

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Correcting an overstatement in muscle coordination and making it look smooth is achievable but why do it ? - Ballet is out of fashion BBB.
There is a good place to start, Rowdy.
Even top racers are accused of errors and "fantastic correction efforts" which interestingly result in winning times.
Deliberate, mate. :)
 

Kletterer

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There is a good place to start, Rowdy.
Even top racers are accused of errors and "fantastic correction efforts" which interestingly result in winning times.
Deliberate, mate. :)
Errors cost time in racing. Extra muscle movement impedes blood flow and oxygen delivery.
 

skifree

A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe
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We next wish to highlight the most obvious deficiency in technique caused by the inability of the local tele tribe to understand, let alone apply, upper body turn initiation.
Lead change is delayed "until we cross the fall line" , in all early instruction.
Not a good way forward, surely.

But you have no idea what’s in or out of early instruction. So it’s a big call to make sweeping statements like above.
 
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bawbawbel

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Weighting the rear ski first to get an early edge, for instance, must upset balance.
We see the inner leg being tipped to achieve this, so why not teach it from the start ?
 

bawbawbel

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If you are weighting the rear ski for early edge initiation, IMO you have it wrong, in tele anyway.
Exactly.
Rotation of the hip will do it.

Italians, like the French and Norwegians, but unlike the Ozzies, are the free spirits of telemarkation. :emoji_dart:
Watch number two ! Absolute Telemark style, absolutely !
Inside arm back ! Right on the track...
Here we have an example of knee bend BEFORE the fall line to facilitate the turn.
Note his extra velocity across the snow.
So there you have it. Effective telemark or pretty telemark, depending on the extent of upper body involvement. :)
 
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Untele-whippet

beard stroker
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But you have no idea what’s in or out of early instruction. So it’s a big call to make sweeping statements like above.
Now you’re talking!
The broom is so under rated and should be a compulsory addition to the discussion.
Sweeping is key to elite professional winter sport technique.
BFB08D2D-9037-4CE2-AD90-4EE8ABD38F2F.jpeg
 

dossa5

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Exactly.
Rotation of the hip will do it.

Italians, like the French and Norwegians, but unlike the Ozzies, are the free spirits of telemarkation. :emoji_dart:
Watch number two ! Absolute Telemark style, absolutely !
Inside arm back ! Right on the track...
Here we have an example of knee bend BEFORE the fall line to facilitate the turn.
Note his extra velocity across the snow.
So there you have it. Effective telemark or pretty telemark, depending on the extent of upper body involvement. :)
Nice snow on an easy run think we'd all like those conditions all the time, but that what makes us aussie freeheelers awesome due to the bastard conditions we are able to ski on. ;)
bbb the right hand movement of the middle skier (looks like a girl) can sometimes be created due to lead change from pulling the ski back as apposed driving forward or both. Sometimes when the ski is pulled back the hips lift and the lower you will go hence the rise in her arm. Driving forward you already have edge set. So many ways to drive our boards you know you want to tele- get outa the closet mate.
 

bawbawbel

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Nice snow on an easy run think we'd all like those conditions all the time, but that what makes us aussie freeheelers awesome due to the bastard conditions we are able to ski on. ;)
bbb the right hand movement of the middle skier (looks like a girl) can sometimes be created due to lead change from pulling the ski back as apposed driving forward or both. Sometimes when the ski is pulled back the hips lift and the lower you will go hence the rise in her arm. Driving forward you already have edge set. So many ways to drive our boards you know you want to tele- get outa the closet mate.
I see what you are implying. We are ill advised to think that we can present even the core of a tele turn in a nutshell.
KL's garden is full of decapitated ornaments, but it was used by our telegal above because the great conditions invited it.
But I still insist that you have got the cart before the horse.

Maybe it does not matter, one does not need to understand the mechanics to produce a reasonable facsimile. :)
 

bawbawbel

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bbb the right hand movement of the middle skier (looks like a girl) can sometimes be created due to lead change from pulling the ski back as apposed driving forward or both. Sometimes when the ski is pulled back the hips lift and the lower you will go hence the rise in her arm. Driving forward you already have edge set. So many ways to drive our boards you know you want to tele- get outa the closet mate.
The problem with relegating me to my own threads is that it has allowed you to ignore the special stuff therein.
Frame analysis will show that rather than her upper body movement being an attempt to regain balance, it produces ski drive without losing her centered stance.
She LIFTED her arm so she could "gnome punch" it down to help INITIATE the transition.
Then, she STOPPED her inside arm (which was moving back) to impart a rotary impulse at transition to help the early edge set that you have noted.
If you are tele turning like that, it is not from knowing what you are doing :)
 

bawbawbel

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"Now Wilderness Sports in Jindy or Everest Sports in Bright can set you up with some ntn. You can use your arms to fight off the girls or boys."
Ta, I understand now the extra control during the turn that tele allows.
It is added to the standard downhill moves that should be mastered before we even begin.
Next year might be sext year:p...
 
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