BottomUporTopDown? Tele Updates

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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Thats the idea ,separation at the waist , counter rotation , esp on steeps where you have to lean forward over the abyss, your pole plant leads.
You are doing the "modern" stem telemark.
Splitting your skis works, of course. Specially in moguls.
But I love to see the classic monomark. Even wide skis can be kept together. :emoji_moyai:
 
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bawbawbel

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Jun 22, 2000
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So what are you missing by using only a step telemark (outside ski keeps it's distance and angle)
Maybe it is just rubbish. To " free the mind" you might as well stay in the pub ?
Or is this oratory ( 2007) similar to the spin which attempted to commercialize our simple top turning, which is a beautiful addition to the telemark turn.
"Telemarking often bears little resemblance to the centuries old Scandinavian turn to assist turning touring skis in ungroomed snow.
The inside ski slides down the side of the outside ski's deep track.
This only works if the inside ski is close enough to the outside ski to be included in it's furrow.
When they do, the sensation is as close to heaven as you are likely to get, and the mystique created is the source of both confusion and spiritual inspiration ."
Phew
 

bawbawbel

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Jun 22, 2000
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bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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Maybe coming from surfing allowed you to speed up the "lifetime to learn telecarve" because upper body input is paramount in surfing.
Blast fm past: https://www.ski.com.au/xf/threads/initiate-a-turn-without-edging-ski-like-a-surfer.71321/
As I recall, nobody agreed that surfing was even remotely like skiing. :(
So you didn't look at it. Neither did I.
Skiing Magazine often had wise words.
They spoke of "flat skiing" as "surf style", but completely omitting our upper body anticipation, of course.
The most common request at my snowboarding instruction was "I want to learn to ride flat".
Nobody should attempt telemarking without first following the following :
 

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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Skiing Magazine often had wise words.
They spoke of "flat skiing" as "surf style", but completely omitting our upper body anticipation, of course.
And by doing so, they found it necessary to invoke the jackinabox ,(leaving the surface) turn initiation.
Joubet kept his American job by kowtowing to the strange enforced doctrine of "everything comes from the skis".
Better update to the very latest skis ?

I am sure that updating is the reason for the cast iron adherence to the doctrine, (even from that early date.) It would be promoted by pressure from ski manufacturers.
Despite investigating Stenmark's turn, who's anticipation in the upper body is so unmistakable that it appeared that he was "turning in both directions simultaneously" it is not mentioned.
Despite the fact that the article was penned by Joubert, proponent of upper body turn initiation, it is not mentioned.
Are you content to be lead by the nose ?
(which is fixed in direct downhill direction ) :)
 
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bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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Slow skiing can get experts into trouble because they usually just rattle off strings of turns.
Linking turns works so well !
They often are surprised to find that they must perform a "pushbike" turn when they stop a tiny stem from occurring.
On a bike you can't start a turn unless you first divert in the opposite direction.
Same on skis if you are locked up above the waist.
 

bawbawbel

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Jun 22, 2000
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https://vimeo.com/user94212654
This confused chap has mastered turning without linking.
He probably has not got to that skill.
"Looking at improving my technique due to being self taught. This is how I ski when it feels like I'm skiing well."
He has, however, got one of the essentials of the telemark turn, yet he is being advised to get a private lesson in order to relearn "the correct turn".
 
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snowgum

A Local
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May 4, 1999
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Bit of bump here, I don’t claim to be able teach tele technique - I’m happy when I’m proficiently linking without falls and stumbles.

But for another online guide, it might be worth referring to some of Rene’-Martin Trudel’s (Canada) videos and notes.

He’s quite helpful with gear selection too - mind you, the East-Coast Canadian snow conditions are quite different to ours but they do get ‘some’ rain, freeze-thaw, ice and ‘mank’ at times.

See what you think…(there’s nothing like having an on-field instructor).

(Yes, he’s happy to sign up new subscribers):

 
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bawbawbel

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Jun 22, 2000
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But for another online guide, it might be worth referring to some of Rene’-Martin Trudel’s (Canada) videos
He illustrates shoulder turning in his intro, but only refers to it as "centering your shoulders over the skis for angulation" and does not illustrate it.
Keeping the good guts for payers ?
Contrast my previous post of a natural top turner, Gerry Pallor.


Yes, comment under Rene video:

"I tried telemark skiing for the first time last week and automatically I wanted to twist my torso like you've mentioned and also about slightly dragging your poles, it just seemed natural to do that"

(Note that a strong forward pole plant is not indicated.)

Comment underPallor video:

" Surely all directional movements are used for balancing, flexing and extending just moves your center of mass towards or further away from your base of support. I can ski or tele without moving in the vertical plane and stay in balance, however if I neglect any rotational movement then the turns go out the window. "

Vitally important, usually just glossed over...
 
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scottski

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Try skiing straight down the fall line and linking turns keeping in a low Tele stance. Then start to link turns opening up to a wider turn shape. Keep the speed up.
Many Tele skiers I watch are turning big wide turns leaving themselves across the fall line as they try to tip in / initiate the next turn.
Not suggesting I’m any good however I do enjoying skiing fast down the fall line.
 
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Telemark Phat

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Try skiing straight down the fall line and linking turns keeping in a low Tele stance. Then start to link turns opening up to a wider turn shape. Keep the speed up.
Many Tele skiers I watch are turning big wide turns leaving themselves across the fall line as they try to tip in / initiate the next turn.
Not suggesting I’m any good however I do enjoying skiing fast down the fall line.
Don't fall into the @bawbawbel vortex.
 

snowgum

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May 4, 1999
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Try skiing straight down the fall line and linking turns keeping in a low Tele stance. Then start to link turns opening up to a wider turn shape. Keep the speed up.
Many Tele skiers I watch are turning big wide turns leaving themselves across the fall line as they try to tip in / initiate the next turn.
Not suggesting I’m any good however I do enjoying skiing fast down the fall line.

Agreed, most new telemarkers fall into
the overturn/steer trap, get side on, lose their edges and its game over.

Feer of facing straight down the fall line is a very real problem for many skiers. Most unlearn this fear on easy-intermediate slopes as they gain in confidence.

My 2 cents watching my wife progress. And now MasterSG (13) - on alpine for now.
 

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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Try skiing straight down the fall line and linking turns keeping in a low Tele stance. Then start to link turns opening up to a wider turn shape. Keep the speed up.
Many Tele skiers I watch are turning big wide turns leaving themselves across the fall line as they try to tip in / initiate the next turn.
Not suggesting I’m any good however I do enjoying skiing fast down the fall line.
absolute1.JPG

So, if you fail to link, your dead. And if you can't tip in without a stem, you are not telemarking.
How can you stand it ?
Pic worth tousand words.
 

scottski

A Local
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absolute1.JPG

So, if you fail to link, your dead. And if you can't tip in without a stem, you are not telemarking.
How can you stand it ?
Pic worth tousand words.
Pic sure tells a thousand words. That guy is all caught up, late on the lead change and about to bin it big time.
 

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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Pic sure tells a thousand words. That guy is all caught up, late on the lead change and about to bin it big time.
He is representing Absolut Telemark's commercial offering.
When he blocks his shoulder rotation, it drives his lead change rather than hindering it.
No longer fully dependent on ski sidecut, his turn has a slow motion dreamlike quality.
A telegirl on the chairlift loves it, chases him all over the mountain and they become an item.
 

scottski

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He is representing Absolut Telemark's commercial offering.
When he blocks his shoulder rotation, it drives his lead change rather than hindering it.
No longer fully dependent on ski sidecut, his turn has a slow motion dreamlike quality.
A telegirl on the chairlift loves it, chases him all over the mountain and they become an item.
Yea, when you stop believing this bullshit I will give you a ski lesson. You will need to keep up.
 

snowgum

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May 4, 1999
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He is representing Absolut Telemark's commercial offering.
When he blocks his shoulder rotation, it drives his lead change rather than hindering it.
No longer fully dependent on ski sidecut, his turn has a slow motion dreamlike quality.
A telegirl on the chairlift loves it, chases him all over the mountain and they become an item.
Hi BBB, I’m not sure if many Vic resorts are doing tele lessons these days - it could be a struggle to find them pre Covid.

But as others here have implied, it’s usually much easier having someone on the spot who can detect your faults / weaker aspects but also highlight the positives and consolidate, yarda…

Sounds like you’re keen enough it’s probably just a matter of getting some decent time on the hill with a lift ticket - something Covid (and poor snow in 2020) prevented. This is the year!

I might even get to BB myself if it gets some good early snow - before my planned ski trips kick in. :ski:
 
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snowgum

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Hike bottom to top in 20 minutes. About my limit these days..
PS You won't need ramps..
I used to hike up to - it could get rather willing when the angry boarders lined you up - helps to be bigger than them and stick your poles in the air. ;)

I still head ‘up’ on the summit XC trail and sometimes I drop into the Summit run. Good fun.

But a lift ticket will help you get the vert metres you need to Practice your teles - alpine turns too. Wicked Wednesdays were $50 a day at BB from memory. Worth a go if the snow is OK?
 

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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Jeep Track in 20 centimeters was fun. 4 runs would finish it. Car at the bottom, hitch to the top.
The new bike track looks hairy.
Anybody tried skiing it ?
 
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bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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He is representing Absolut Telemark's commercial offering.
When he blocks his shoulder rotation, it drives his lead change rather than hindering it.
No longer fully dependent on ski sidecut, his turn has a slow motion dreamlike quality.
A telegirl on the chairlift loves it, chases him all over the mountain and they become an item.
Not only telemarkers, but even snowbladers, usually an object of derision because "feet first" does not look good or feel good, can attract swarms of followers once they feel the freedom of the torso. Go getem.

 

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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Shoulder rotation DURING the turn (instant reverse shoulder) is no laughing matter.
It will continue to be the automatic response to the vague suggestion by half educated instructors to "free the shoulders", when they see their students caught in a trap that will blight their entire skiing life.
The answer is to require a compulsory extra snowboarding qualification (anticipation turning techniques) to these well meaning perveyers of misery.
 

bawbawbel

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Jun 22, 2000
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Newcomers and raw beginners and average Australian skiers will say "I can't see the difference ?"
My dedicated followers will answer:
"Them ain't two step turns (twist and PAUSE").
Them are the sort of rubbish that Oz skiers end up with."
The remedy is a private lesson in Switzerland:
swisstele1.JPG
 

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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Agreed, most new telemarkers fall into
the overturn/steer trap, get side on, lose their edges and its game over.

Feer of facing straight down the fall line is a very real problem for many skiers. Most unlearn this fear on easy-intermediate slopes as they gain in confidence.

My 2 cents watching my wife progress. And now MasterSG (13) - on alpine for now.
One way to get out of side on is too stem the upper ski. Boo ! (the more side on, the harder it is to perform ).
The proper way is to rotate your top and then BLOCK that rotation. ( Gently, at first it will flip you 180 degrees !)
Now is the time to fix up your family.
 

bawbawbel

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Jun 22, 2000
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Wicked Wednesdays were $50 a day at BB from memory. Worth a go if the snow is OK?
Way to go.
But telemarkers are my problem. After a day with them copying top turns and agreeing that they are finally free, I turn left halfway down the Home Trail and watch them revert to 90 degree stems as the sudden steep mucks them up...
 

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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Thats the idea ,separation at the waist , counter rotation , esp on steeps where you have to lean forward over the abyss, your pole plant leads.
Two step, two step, on steeps your whole body must lead. One pole or two, as required.
Rotation just before liftoff makes it work.

Leg steering is fine, but the body anticipation guarantees you will not be caught pointing downhill.
Not the counter rotation phase.

Hmm.. Telemark style landings have the advantage of a slower reengagement with the snow after liftoff. :)


TMCapture.JPG
 

snowgum

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Two step, two step, on steeps your whole body must lead. One pole or two, as required.
Rotation just before liftoff makes it work.
Not the counter rotation phase.
Hmm.. Telemark style landings have the advantage of a slower reengagement with the snow after liftoff. :)

Mm not sure they teach it that way anymore?

He’s not bad on these steeps - I couldn’t do it.

But the earlier flatter bit, the jump turns look a bit exaggerated (OTT) to me. Maybe the snow was super sticky and back then, probably had long straight planks - nothing like the modern shaped, Rockered bananas ‘we’ mostly used these days - which practically turn themselves.
 

bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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Depends on your style, no doubt. Must be scary steep.
His style would work just as well with zero or negative sidecut ( which is often preferred by deep snow fanatics ).
 
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bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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Two step, two step, on steeps your whole body must lead. One pole or two, as required.
Rotation just before liftoff makes it work.

Leg steering is fine, but the body anticipation guarantees you will not be caught pointing downhill.
Not the counter rotation phase.

Hmm.. Telemark style landings have the advantage of a slower reengagement with the snow after liftoff. :)


TMCapture.JPG

Most of his turns start using linking from the previous one.
The role of upper body anticipation there is to produce progressive engagement (avoiding the thud that comes from landing unassisted jump turns )

In the clip he has landed pointing too much downhill.
Emergency ! Invoke full upper body! His left arm comes across so fast that it blurs. Saved..
 
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bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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Telemark Anticipation can take two forms. Take your choice :
First, the Wedeln style (inside arm of the old turn forward and across the body )
Or, better, because it includes a gnome punch, outside arm of the old turn backwards, coinciding with the pole plant.

Fast !
 

bawbawbel

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Jun 22, 2000
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Cool BBB, I’m at Buller/Stirling for the weekend. Will provide an update as to what I’ve remembered/forgotten over almost 3 years. :whistle: :cool:
Took the rust off my skis, body bit of a worry.
Just like riding a bike, you got it good.
Go, telemark .
No leaning forward, you lose back foot pressure and your turn becomes unstable.
No real pole plant, it is just a trigger.
 

snowgum

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Took the rust off my skis, body bit of a worry.
Just like riding a bike, you got it good.
Go, telemark .
No leaning forward, you lose back foot pressure and your turn becomes unstable.
No real pole plant, it is just a trigger.
Can only but try! ;) :ski:
 

slotele

One of Us
Jun 3, 2016
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Way to go.
But telemarkers are my problem. After a day with them copying top turns and agreeing that they are finally free, I turn left halfway down the Home Trail and watch them revert to 90 degree stems as the sudden steep mucks them up...
oh no! Hope that wasn't me :eek:
will try to concentrate a bit more this week!
 

pegasusSki

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and you never top up a beer until you bottom down
I bottom out near the top.
Sometimes in the middle but not always, sometimes I bottom out before the middle.

Skiiing is like cricket, you are in until you are out, then you are out until you are in.
 

rowdyflat

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Telemark Anticipation can take two forms. Take your choice :
First, the Wedeln style (inside arm of the old turn forward and across the body )
Or, better, because it includes a gnome punch, outside arm of the old turn backwards, coinciding with the pole plant.

Fast !

I am too old to do 50 short turns in a row but looking at videos of myself the inside arm of the old turn forward is what makes sense because it moves the weight forward and balances as the back ski moves forward.
 
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bawbawbel

Easi Ski.....
Jun 22, 2000
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Pic sure tells a thousand words. That guy is all caught up, late on the lead change and about to bin it big time.

Get used to it.
As my legs arthritis-size(?), alpine turns on tele gear are my saviour.
Sadly? :rolleyes:
Telemark Talk is the first site to not shy away from shoulder initiation, lead change AFTER edge change.
If you are being instructed by an "old school" teacher, it is a waste (waist ?) of time.


Note also how a commenter says that alpine turns are harder on tele gear :
"As far as trying to apply this to parallel turns on tele skis... On my alpines this waist steering is like opening a magic box, and it is much easier as for burn, concerning my old-ass, beat-up thighs and knees, but I'm finding it is not really working out when I alpine on my tele boards. I'm not sure why, but I think it is because on alpines I can and do use a lot more tip pressure early in the turn, that and because the inside ski gets used (on alpines I read about 30% on the inside ski should be edged into the apex (KEY POINT: NOT AFTER THE APEX) whereas on paralleled tele skis the heel will naturally rise attempting waist steer and throw off the benefit of the effect (if not make the parallel go squirrelly)."

Anyway, don't just skim the following, it will ease the pain.
 
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