Brumbies KNP Management Plan Review

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by tele-whippet, Aug 12, 2014.

  1. tele-whippet

    tele-whippet beard stroker
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  2. sbm

    sbm Dedicated Member
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    It makes me angry when people use misleading names to influence a debate (I could rant but I'll keep on topic).

    Wild horses? How romantic and free and noble! Screw that. Call them what they really are. Feral horses.
     
  3. tele-whippet

    tele-whippet beard stroker
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    Feral or wild not domesticated or tame though!
    Tell 'em what you think, call them what they really are ------ not here but where it counts ---- be angry, be very angry (but polite :) )
     
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  4. teletripper

    teletripper Active Member

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    Maybe not to influence a debate! Maybe to moderate a debate and hopefully find a way forward!

    Nows your chance to have your say and express your views, opinions, what you've seen, and what you value about KNP and the Australian Alps. I am looking forward to reading some of the exchanges. As TW said. Play nice.

    Go to it.
    TT
     
  5. skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture
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    There is no need to actually debate the matter.

    Do we debate the need to remove deer, pigs, goats, rabbits, cats, foxes, cattle, sheep, weeds and other ferals from the Park? No we just ask each other how can we do it better.
     
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  6. tele-whippet

    tele-whippet beard stroker
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    I think the vast majority here agree with you skifree but there is a very large, vocal and politically powerful section of society that emotionally connects with all horses and romanticises the wild (feral) horses right to exist.
    We should unemotionally, rationally and scientifically argue for their management and control by making submissions to the Plan Of Management.
    The catharsis of rage is gratifying but unproductive when comparisons are made by the public with those big brown eyes and Black Beauty.
    We need to debate cos unfortunately there is an opposing view to ours.
    Happy skiing :)
     
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  7. skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture
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    I have made a contribution but I would have to say the conversations are very very round about and none are saying do we get rid of the horses 100% and how soon can we do it. Lots of pussy footing.

    It would be good if horse people could get a grip and appreciate there are thousands of horses living well cared for lives across Australia and there is no need for more to be living in the lands set aside for the native flora, fauna and environment. Especially given these lands are very small as a percentage of the total landscape we have terraformed to suit our selves and our pets.
     
  8. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Part of the Furniture
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    I blame Banjo Patterson
     
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  9. Gimp

    Gimp Dedicated Member
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    DHG update. Spoke to Nicholas the fox baiter on Sat whilst surveying two brumbie carcasses. He said they were the same mob that spent last winter on Cascades ridge (I think) but were able to survive by pawing/scraping to get to feed (snowpack less depth last year).
    Also said the other three horses were removed by parks last week, apparently some Thredbo staffer was hauling hay to them by skidoo and got busted
     
  10. Tonka

    Tonka Active Member

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    If we ever get rid of the horses from National Parks will trout be next? Food for thought.
     
  11. tele-whippet

    tele-whippet beard stroker
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    Nicely worded ----- if only there was a market for horse pie ;)
     
  12. Tonka

    Tonka Active Member

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    There is in Europe/ UK. I don't believe those Kebabs I ate were lamb, far too expensive. Whilst skiing in the north of Sweden a few years back I lived on a diet of Moose and Fish, was told by the locals that Moose is a lot like horse. With the cost of living in Europe especially in the eastern half, good cheaper meat would not go to waste.
     
  13. Gimp

    Gimp Dedicated Member
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    Ha, you would have to break that distinctly strayn view of exactly what constitutes as food (as opposed to other cultures that eat anything that lives period)
     
  14. Angus_McCrory

    Angus_McCrory Old And Crusty

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    Take the Chinese view? If it moves it can be eaten. If it doesn't move, make an ornamental garden out of it.
     
  15. skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture
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    Reading thru the NPWS Conversations the sucker for brown eyes have a good hold on things.

    Not that it helps that NPWS does not have a budget for their own toilet paper never mind actually doing anything. This is not their fault but voters who do not tell their elected members that they want a funded NPWS instead of a shell.
     
  16. person s

    person s Old And Crusty
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    are they in the park itself?
     
  17. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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    LOL, I don't think Parks own the water. Fish are a matter for Fisheries.
     
  18. person s

    person s Old And Crusty
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    I suppose if they're in the big lakes and the lakes are boundaries of the park, perhaps trout are an issue
     
  19. skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture
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    Actually we, well NSW Fisheries introduce trout into the waters every year to maintain a population that otherwise would fade away in many NSW streams.

    So it is all the opposite of the management (the new word for do f all about something) of feral pests.
     
  20. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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    There are trout in the streams within KNP. Most streams. They are within the dammed lakes of the park (none in the glacial lakes). It's a major tourism highlight.

    But, really, Parks do not manage fish. Fisheries (Dept Primary Industries) do.

    Only rainbows are stocked in Jindabyne and Eucumbene. Browns have never been stocked in Lake Euc, and maybe not in Jindy. Atlantic Salmon and Brook Trout are sometimes stocked in Jindy. Brookies are sometimes stocked in some of the other lakes also (Blowering, Four Mile, etc, etc, etc.)
     
  21. Majikthise

    Majikthise Sage
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    and blind mullet has been known to occur anywhere after the thaw...
     
  22. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Part of the Furniture
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    If you wait a while on the bridges between the car park and the Perisher Centre you will see trout.
     
  23. skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture
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    6 September, or there abouts from that bridge.
     
  24. Angus_McCrory

    Angus_McCrory Old And Crusty

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    Although I'm a keep flyfisher (for trout), I would not object to their removal from streams to allow the return of natives. Was an interesting article in one of the national papers recently on this issue.
     
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  25. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend
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    A highly suspect article; the journo is in fact a keen angler for natives (cod, trout cod), which he thinks aren't given the due deference he thinks they should have. He does not disclose this. It also presupposes that all good trout water is good trout cod water… and that all anglers want to fish for them, and eat them. There are a bunch of errors in the article around cost as well - costs of the managed trout fishery are highly paid for by the anglers who fish for them via the recreational fishing trust - this contributes to Gaden, to Fisheries' staff wages and to research on natives (pretty much no research on troots these days).
     
  26. Tonka

    Tonka Active Member

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    As a keen fisher who has carried a rod far and wide and read a fair amount about the issue, trout are well protected by the economics of the argument and bring in big dollars. But the horses, what are their worth?
     
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  27. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Addicted Member
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    Well maybe we could change the name of horse camp huts...so we are all focused on eradicating the brown eyed terrorists...lets sever the emotional ties altogether!!!

    Team Bears have an idea...how about Feral Camp Huts????

    now DHG can be renamed Nasty Feral Gap!!!!!
     
    #27 Ubiquitous Steve, Aug 19, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2014
  28. skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture
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    Now you are being silly.
     
  29. gareth_oau

    gareth_oau Old And Crusty
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  30. Tonka

    Tonka Active Member

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    What can one say, pulling on the emotional heart strings. So these men and women, I guess use the brumbies for sport, entertainment, the ability to make a few dollars selling them and if they can't, donating them. Cashing in on the heritage dream of long ago. If the brumbies weren't there then these horse folk wouldn't have an excuse to go gallivanting around the high country living the dream (cause it's in their blood)! The question is, what are National Parks for? The reason for there existence? For the benefit of flora and fauna and people. Certainly not for all flora and fauna and not all people.
     
  31. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Part of the Furniture
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    Say no to tall bunnies.
     
  32. shauno

    shauno Active Member

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    Personally id like to round a few up and tame them. They are descendants of horses used in WW1 etc and very hardy things. But then again I cant ride to save my self so ill stop dreaming and get back to reality.
     
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  33. Majikthise

    Majikthise Sage
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    the conversation thus far from what I've looked at (and I've only waded through a third of the topics and haven't got to the open ones yet)looks to be dominated by the horsie crowd with what appears a adherence to a coherent message, which involves a perverse interpretation of "sustainable". I figure they are working off a song sheet. How else are people seeing the conversation
     
  34. skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture
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    Tep, horse people are mobilised and dominating.

    Arguments are being side tracked my insignificant matters such as how horses there are. And how nasty being shot is.

    The issue is horses yes OR no. None of the yes arguments hold water. The only answer for Parks space is no.
     
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  35. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Part of the Furniture
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    If they're that useful why isn't someone breeding them?
     
  36. skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture
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    Cos Parks does that for free. Are they not nice and helpful folks?
     
  37. Majikthise

    Majikthise Sage
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    Giligans report puts paid to the' nasty being shot argument..' should have some time to get involved in the conversation soon I will be advocating for
    Reinstatement of aerial culling with trained marksmen
    Systemic removal of alll feral mammals starting with the biggest ones.
    Exclusion fencing for sensitive areas and endangered populations
    Also where possible the argument that the alpine environment is going to subject to increasing stress with climate change, there is no excuse not to ameliorate other stressor, ferals as a preventable and managable stressor should be top of the list.
     
  38. Majikthise

    Majikthise Sage
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    What else should be on the green pinko misanthropic song sheet.
     
  39. tele-whippet

    tele-whippet beard stroker
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    Alpine whales
     
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  40. Majikthise

    Majikthise Sage
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    Marriage equality for gay alpine whales
     
  41. gareth_oau

    gareth_oau Old And Crusty
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    so we have a choice:

    a/ the government pays someone (from taxes you paid) to put a bullet in them

    b/ a bunch of "volunteers" go in, catch them, tame them, donate a few to worthy causes, use them on their farms, and even manage to sell a few, to cover their costs, even make a profit.

    Explain to me who is actually losing in option b?
     
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  42. skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture
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    So that is alpine whales can marry avy giraffes?
     
  43. tele-whippet

    tele-whippet beard stroker
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    Don't care, not meant to be there, kill them and save a possum
     
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  44. skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture
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    It is the current system (I can show the horse yards and introduce you to the people who make their pocket money out of this) but if does stuff all to actually reduce to any reasonable point towards zero numbers.

    And it is inherit in such a system that they leave a breeding population at the end of each capture season.

    It is the current system and if it was effective we would not be having this discussion.
     
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  45. tele-whippet

    tele-whippet beard stroker
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    There are thousands of them, wild, v hard to trap humanely, amazingly harder to break and domesticate and most end up in cans of dog food unfortunately.
     
  46. Majikthise

    Majikthise Sage
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    Bang for buck has to put against efficacy at controlling the risk they represent. Aerial cull wins hands down.
     
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  47. skifree

    skifree Part of the Furniture
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    A zillion dead water buffs will not argue against you.
     
  48. gareth_oau

    gareth_oau Old And Crusty
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    Ah ok so culling is the most effective way of soling the problem. Understood

    But why make it illegal for people to catch them?
     
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  49. Majikthise

    Majikthise Sage
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    No reason why you can't manage both in the short term. The volunteer capture program should have a goal to be redundant in knp in x years and move to another np with a feral horse problem.
     
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  50. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Part of the Furniture
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    My Old bosses son in law was in charge of the brumby wild capture program. 99% of the horses ended up at the knackery. Save the hastle and just shoot them in the park already.
     
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