Charlotte Pass Lease Renewal thread

Tree Breaker Bob

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So it does depend on who owns the infrastructure. If Kevin paid for and does then the state steals it off him to have an open tender process (otherwise it just wouldn't work) how is that right. If the state owns it then an open tender arrangement could be considered, but again that's being very back stabbing in the process of openness to their original agreement

We can only annoy our state members and wait

Bob
 

Angus_McCrory

Old n' Crusty
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The bowls will still be there, even if turns have to be earned. My primary concern is losing my cushy staging post for backcountry forays......... my lodge membership cost bugga all.
 
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toxicfox

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Geez, your getting slow in your old age NozMan. It was in the original post. Thanks for reminding people though.

I feel that Climberman is playing devils advocate too much. A bit of light trolling. I can see his point of view from what he is saying but can he see ours ? If the Parks want to run an Open Tender then why not create a new lease area within KNP ? The value of CPV (much like every Golf Course in NSW on Crown Land) is in the good will and improvements. Look at LaPerouse v LEC. The economic rationalists know the price of everything and the value of nothing, and it's time for them to depart.
 

climberman

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I feel that Climberman is playing devils advocate too much. A bit of light trolling. I can see his point of view from what he is saying but can he see ours ? If the Parks want to run an Open Tender then why not create a new lease area within KNP ? The value of CPV (much like every Golf Course in NSW on Crown Land) is in the good will and improvements. Look at LaPerouse v LEC. The economic rationalists should know the price of everything and the value of nothing, and it's time for them to depart.

Of course I can see 'yours'. I'm completely on the side of keeping CPV up, running and viable 100 years or more into the future. I'm just kind of surprised that in the current political climate anyone is
a) surprised and
b) arguing vehemently against,
openness in the leasing of public lands for profit.

Not trolling at all.

OEH won't be looking to flock anyone over nor to run it themselves and the climate has well and truly moved against 'anti-people' stuff given the role of the resorts in regional tourism and employment. If it were me I'd be wary of trying to box the very bureaucrats and pollies you need into a corner. A retreat to slow and rigorous adherence to policy, public comment, display and investigation could simply extend timeframes…

If the Parks want to run an Open Tender then why not create a new lease area within KNP?
Sheezuz, not sure I'd say that out loud on the interdernet. Be careful what you wish for!
 

skifree

A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe
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CPV needs good lawyers. If what has been published is correct there is more than a reasonable case for lease renewal on their terms with costs for being dicked around. I have been involved in cases that went ahead and were won with way less to go, I was on the losing side.
 
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skifree

A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe
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Govt Dept Vs Lawyers = result

Govt Dept Vs Public opnion = sorry what were we talking about?
 

Angus_McCrory

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Really just an extension under existing terms and conditions. Still no certainty for CPV as head lessee or the lodges which will allow them to reinvest in the place.
 
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toxicfox

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Well that's what our Club President said was likely, so I'll remain unstressed ;-)
The original offer of extension contained a number of amendments. One related to ownership of the infrastructure and buildings. It looks like some sense has prevailed and this time the extension is along the same lines of the existing lease. This has only happened in the past week. A few people from CPV and the Lodges have been putting in alot of work to get to this point.

I hope it doesn't take the full 3 yrs to extend the Lease proper. Maybe they can use the Perisher Lease renewals as a template and get it done in the next month.
 

Ozgirl

Part of the Furniture
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I am a bit pissed about the follow up call from change.org...

Anyone else get this?

Made me fell like shit to hang up on them but I am truly not interested in the secondary cause we seemed to have signed up for.
 

Angus_McCrory

Old n' Crusty
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I am a bit pissed about the follow up call from change.org...

Anyone else get this?

Made me fell like shit to hang up on them but I am truly not interested in the secondary cause we seemed to have signed up for.
Just unsubscribe.
 

SkiMountaineer

One of Us
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Jul 8, 2012
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I am a bit pissed about the follow up call from change.org...

Anyone else get this?

Made me fell like shit to hang up on them but I am truly not interested in the secondary cause we seemed to have signed up for.
I didn't get a follow up call. What was the secondary cause?
 

skifree

A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe
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3 years and there will have been a change of Guvment and probably a generational change in NPWS.

So sitaution back to normal.

Back to the bar for a couple of years everyone, nothing to see here.
 

blackice

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I received an invitation to campaign against Jetstar online booking fees. It's irrelevant to me personally, as I have a Jetstar Mastercard and don'y pay fees when I book.

There was a recent article in a mainstream ausie online newspaper regarding change.org's business model, I don't have a link and don't recall the exact details but it is not a 'not for profit' organisation, it's into the business of 'causes'...

I signed up to one of their campaigns several years ago and recently un-subscribed from their mailing list due to frustration with the volume of spam.
 
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toxicfox

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There is an article on The Snow Guage:

http://thesnowgauge.net/australia/2074/
I guess it's done and dusted then. ;) There was a story the parks offered up CPV to Vail at the time of the Perisher acquisition but it was declined and they had no interest in running CPV.

Does anyone know how many parties lodged an EOI ? and how many were invited to tender for the lease ? Does commercial in confidence over rule open and transparent process.
 
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Tree Breaker Bob

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Any news on the head lease. Oct for the decision is fast running out . Waiting with bated breath

Obviously CP is also waiting as they have not announced season passes yet for '18, so is our lodge to see what to do about the fire audit works we have planned for this summer

Don't wait, write to your local state member to be forwarded on the the relevant minister how unhappy you are that this simple process has taken years and has cost far to much money. If you live in a marginal seat like I do then it can have some effect. Look at the by-elections and the swing to the farmers, shooters and fishers party

It's hardly been an open process as they have always had someone submit a tender, they, whoever "they" are, just don't like the tenderer and just reopen the whole process again and again until "they" get what "they " want without regard for cost and disruption of the effected parties, CPV, lodges and anyone else who provides a service to Charlotte Pass

It is time for the decision to be made and if Kevin doesn't get it and sues "they" will only get what "they" deserve.

Interestingly I reread a lot of the thread and it really is why people get annoyed at the public service when they cannot even do simple things

Bob
 

Tree Breaker Bob

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Extension till April 2018 until they finalise everything. Doesn't help anyone.

This is official?, can you confirm the authenticity of this as I will absolutely hammer my state member who will forward it on to the minister

Hopefully we can also get an extension on the fire upgrades so we don't spend the money in vain lol

Don't "they" realise the pain being inflicted on taxpayers

Bob
 

toxicfox

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Extension till April 2018 until they finalise everything. Doesn't help anyone.
I saw that, and agree, not much time to prepare for Season 2018 if you don't know what is happening or what future costs will be. By April most lodges have completed maintenance and stocked for the coming season.

The OEH needs time to complete surveys of head lease area and sub-leases ? They've been in lease renewal discussions for 10 years that I can remember, but never undertook a survey?

Head Lease negotiations also went from Open Tender back to Direct Negotiation this year as well. Probably only had the one EOI. Lodges will just have to wait for the Head Leasee to tell them what's going to happen in the future.

Did anyone actually think that this would be finalised in October this year ?
 

SkiMountaineer

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This is official?, can you confirm the authenticity of this as I will absolutely hammer my state member who will forward it on to the minister

Hopefully we can also get an extension on the fire upgrades so we don't spend the money in vain lol

Don't "they" realise the pain being inflicted on taxpayers

Bob
Yes, it is official. Lease will be Torrens Title. Need to survey, but there is a small problem of snow on the ground. Fire upgrades must progress irrespective. Secret is to do bare minimum to be in compliance.
 

skifree

A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe
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I thought Torrens Title was only an South Aust thing.

Just did a bit of goggling & it is very significant if the lease is revised to Torrens Title.

We need a NSW legal land stuff type lawyer person to give us the low down.
 

Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
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It's quite puzzling - so puzzling that I think there are some wires crossed.

I can see no logical reason why they would excise a chunk of national park, convert it to Torrens (or separate Torrens lots for various lodges etc) and lease it out. Separate leases of bits of the park for individual footprints for lodges etc is how Perisher works and how, I assume, current leases in Charlottes work so surveys are already done. Unless there is some dastardly plan to flog off the freehold down the track.
 

skifree

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It's quite puzzling - so puzzling that I think there are some wires crossed.

I can see no logical reason why they would excise a chunk of national park, convert it to Torrens (or separate Torrens lots for various lodges etc) and lease it out. Separate leases of bits of the park for individual footprints for lodges etc is how Perisher works and how, I assume, current leases in Charlottes work so surveys are already done. Unless there is some dastardly plan to flog off the freehold down the track.
So my thinking was not so crazy after all. Hang on this is a legs post I'm reading, maybe I'm crazier than i thought?

Seriously legs, i think you are right it does not make sense.

Does it not take a referendum & 3 changes of guvment to excise land out of a National Park in NSW???
 

SkiMountaineer

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From NPWS:

Dear Charlotte Pass sub-lessee
Below is a status update on the Charlotte Pass Management Review and Head lease:

- The parties to a head lease for Charlotte Pass Village have arrived at agreed terms that are now subject to final government approval.

- OEH is proposing an extension to the current head lease, the Kosciuszko Alpine Club lease and all sub-leases for 6 months to finalise arrangements and a survey for the head lease area and sub-leases. Surveys are required because the Village has been converted to Torrens title.

- The formal documentation to enable extensions will be forwarded in the near future once final government approval has occurred.

Regards
Resort Consultation
 

skichanger

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Ok that is a bit weird. I wonder if they are proposing something a bit like community title. This is kind of like strata title but for a group of blocks of land. Some are gated estates some are not. There is a governing body/neighbourhood association that owns (or leases in this case) all the common property but each individual lot is actually torrens title.
 

skifree

A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe
Moderator
Ski Pass
Jul 13, 1998
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From NPWS:

Dear Charlotte Pass sub-lessee
Below is a status update on the Charlotte Pass Management Review and Head lease:

- The parties to a head lease for Charlotte Pass Village have arrived at agreed terms that are now subject to final government approval.

- OEH is proposing an extension to the current head lease, the Kosciuszko Alpine Club lease and all sub-leases for 6 months to finalise arrangements and a survey for the head lease area and sub-leases. Surveys are required because the Village has been converted to Torrens title.

- The formal documentation to enable extensions will be forwarded in the near future once final government approval has occurred.

Regards
Resort Consultation
Wow, just wow. Far out brussell sprout wow.
 

Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
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Ok that is a bit weird. I wonder if they are proposing something a bit like community title. This is kind of like strata title but for a group of blocks of land. Some are gated estates some are not. There is a governing body/neighbourhood association that owns (or leases in this case) all the common property but each individual lot is actually torrens title.
Maybe, but I assume that NPWS will be the landlord, not the lodges etc. Normally the owner is the person with management rights, not the tenant.

Weird.
 

skichanger

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Maybe, but I assume that NPWS will be the landlord, not the lodges etc. Normally the owner is the person with management rights, not the tenant.

Weird.
I meant that their may be head lease holder who acted like the neighbourhood association. So the lodges are torrens title but there is leasholder who is another level of authority that the lodge owners need to deal with.
 

climberman

CloudRide1000 Legend
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Can you have property as Torrens Title but leasehold, in NSW.
If they need to excise it from the park that requires an amendment to the NPWS Act via parliament. Can't see them wanting to go down that road in a hurry.
 

Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
Ski Pass
Mar 3, 1999
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I meant that their may be head lease holder who acted like the neighbourhood association. So the lodges are torrens title but there is leasholder who is another level of authority that the lodge owners need to deal with.
I'm not sure that I understand what you mean. It sounds as though you are describing a Thredbo style head lease/sub-lease system, which does not require Torrens title.
 

Tree Breaker Bob

One of Us
Jul 19, 2006
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So is the Kosi Nat Park Crown land or a Torrens Title already

Certainly the lease for Charlotte Pass being over 100 years old would be what Old System or any number of other things so going to Torrens Title with Govt or NPWS owning it and leasing it would make sense, however some indigenous people might claim ownership in the process lol

There is no way the Torrens Title land could be purchased by an outsider, so why the hold up on negotiations, what is expected to change with a survey. Maybe NPWS are going to claw back some land as I believe the head lease goes right up stillwell as well as other areas

Bob
 

Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
Ski Pass
Mar 3, 1999
68,409
43,795
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Coastal suburban boonies.
So is the Kosi Nat Park Crown land or a Torrens Title already

Certainly the lease for Charlotte Pass being over 100 years old would be what Old System or any number of other things so going to Torrens Title with Govt or NPWS owning it and leasing it would make sense, however some indigenous people might claim ownership in the process lol

There is no way the Torrens Title land could be purchased by an outsider, so why the hold up on negotiations, what is expected to change with a survey. Maybe NPWS are going to claw back some land as I believe the head lease goes right up stillwell as well as other areas

Bob
It's Crown land.
 
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