Question DEBATE - Definition of Subtropics for the purpose of this forum.

Discussion in 'Daily & Chat' started by Richard, Jul 8, 2019.

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  1. MegaMatch

    MegaMatch One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    "South Mediterranean."

    Nah.

    Anyway, my opinion would still be something like:

    Mediterranean (or some other name) - WA, SA
    Subtropical - SEQ/NE NSW, NSW
    Tropics - northern WA/NT/QLD, TC & monsoon talk belongs in here.
    Alpine & Southern - VIC, southern NSW?
    World - World

    I really do think it would work.
     
  2. Richard

    Richard Maintenance Dept Administrator

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    I'm confident that we will get activity - eventually it may evolve to split to six state based threads and a few non-geo sub-forums.

    the goal now is for new arrivals to quickly and easily self-filter and find a state based thread in a sub-forum - without having too many sub-forums such that during the 'buildup of activity period' it does not look like a ghost town.

    AWS has mapped exactly what you want. And the common appraisal that's getting reported back on WZ is it looks inactive. This becomes self-fulfilling. This I want to avoid.

    cdweather is similar (but different). All the threads are in one sub-forum called weatherzone (which is kinda a good approach) but only one of the threads has any momentum as yet
     
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  3. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    The reason this thread is here, is to discuss these things. It's also organic, so things tend to change.
    It's a good time to have this discussion, with a number of opinions.
     
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  4. teck

    teck Early Days

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    In your opinion Richard, and maybe by east coast peeps?
    The term is widely used here because its what our climate is. If SA people see that, they know its where they head to.
    I'm trying to help you here but it seems you are stuck in your ways.
     
  5. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Threads can also be moved very easily moved if we change/add sub-forums later.
     
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  6. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    as someone living on a border (NSW/Vic near the mountains), I would caution about too strictly state based. I'm sure those on the NSW/Qld border would feel much the same. We care about zones that overlap states - especially true for Alpine and tropical.
     
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  7. Flowin

    Flowin One of Us

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    I agree with Mega. Perhaps "Central to west temperate" instead of mediterranean. For SA / southern WA
    Below is map of the official koppen classifications. I see no need to split equatorial from tropics. Map probably does not sufficiently portray subtropical interest for NSW.
    [​IMG]
     
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  8. teck

    teck Early Days

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    AWF is very much like WZ format yes, but its inactive because it was inactive before WZ announced its closure. It also has back history of issues and disgruntled former WZ members, hence why its been avoided by many, myself included.
     
  9. Richard

    Richard Maintenance Dept Administrator

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    I've changed it up like five times already. Hardly stuck in my ways. You also want this to map exactly to how you think about it.

    Show me the word 'Mediterranean' used on WZ for any of the sub-forum titles? I can't even find it used in any of the descriptions. So it's not nomenclature that maps to WZ that I can see.
     
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  10. StormCapture

    StormCapture Early Days

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    I’m just looking how new people will find threads

    I put the SA one as I read it as alpine and south so my head instantly went “Okay this is for the Alpine region and the southern half of Australia” so that’s why I originally put it there, not subtropical and marine as I thought sub tropical would be NE NSW and SE QLD and for all marine around Australia
     
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  11. MegaMatch

    MegaMatch One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    AWS has been mostly inactive for a while now and only just recently modified their layout to look like WZ v2. I don't agree with having a sub-forum for every single state either, I think it's overkill, but I do think combining those states that do share similar climates is the way to go. I think WA/SA weather watchers will feel way more comfortable in their own forum than lumped in with us easterners who share barely any similar climate traits at all. Just my 2c.
     
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  12. teck

    teck Early Days

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    yer sorry - wrong phrase to use.
    I think we have made it clear why the use of Mediterranean is best. It wasnt used on WZ because it was state based forums and you dont want that here and I understand that.
    I go back to the original issue though - you cant include SA and sth WA in any of those other sub-forums because they just don't belong under that label.
    I'll leave it there as I've made the point. If you dont see many SA posters you will know why, because there isnt a home for them.
     
  13. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    does coastal and dry work for anyone as a name for that grouping?
     
  14. Donzah

    Donzah Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    They have their own thread?
    I think you have to appreciate how ski.com.au forums are navigated vs how WZ was set up.
     
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  15. Richard

    Richard Maintenance Dept Administrator

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    right, so there's a lot of dynamics that make a good forum.

    This debate is how we have always solved things here. I don't get to decide and then set and forget - or assume I got it right the first time - or ignore the wisdom of the crowd. I make changes, usually based on the data, but in the absence of data I work with my experience.

    I've been through this process before.. and with that, there are certain 'needs' that I am aware of that you, as someone who has not designed and built web sites for 25 years (I've done a shit load more than just this place) are not aware of - so respect is a two way street. I'm not going to argue black and blue with you with the minutae of knowledge you have in your career/domain/trade when it's not something I do everyday.


    so.. back to the issue.

    At the moment, I'm reading that the fundamental issue is that nomeclature based on climate bands is not working, it does not map to where you came from and if I want to attract ex-WZ I need to map with something that at least feels familiar.

    It seemed like a good idea at the time, but already we have differences of interpretation and context. ie SA is not subtropics.

    And so we find ourselves here.

    My fix is to address the root cause. Switch the climate band theme for something else and see if that flys.

    --------

    P.S
    When was the last time you had a conversation like this with the admin of a large website?
     
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  16. teck

    teck Early Days

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    I think you need to appreciate that 'some' changes need to be made (and have been made already) if you want to accommodate displaced WZ posters.
    As I have explained already, its not just one thread. A new thread is made for every substantial weather event.
     
  17. Donzah

    Donzah Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    You can start a thread for the upcoming weather event in SA?
    It will appear right at the top of the active topics .
    Any WZ user can just click on active topics and there it is.
    Then they can watch that thread. As it is relevant to their interests.
     
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  18. Richard

    Richard Maintenance Dept Administrator

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    This is not the issue at heart. More threads will come. The issue is rapid recognition of 'where do I belong' for WZ migrants

    The other part to this puzzle (that I would usually note in private) is this;

    any ex-WZ folk are by definition the last, thus, the most rusted-on and the most resistant to change. Therefore, they want whatever the alternative is to map exactly to the comfortable place they just left.

    You guys are the ocean liner that can't turn round fast enough - not us.
     
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  19. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    I think Central to West temperate is pretty good.
     
  20. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Middle Oz?
     
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  21. StormCapture

    StormCapture Early Days

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    All we are trying to do is give suggestions to make this work for both and ways to help direct future WZ users here so they know where to go but seems like we are a nuisance with our suggestions.

    I’m sure it’s not that hard to have this along with your other 4 topics:

    “ WZ forum users” so there’s 5 total
    Then in the WZ one, we have: SA, Sth WA, TAS, VIC, Sth NSW, NE NSW SE QLD, and Tropics (N half of WA, NT QLD)

    So the WZ folk have our own seperate area to the original 4 that were here

    I’m sure if moderating is an issue then to ask a few users to help moderate some of these sub forums and just give a rundown on what to look out for and what to do if something gets out of hand.

    Putting it under the climate of the area isn’t a smart way as many would classify via the States and territories far easier than having to think of the climate of the area.

    Example: a deep low behind a cold front to hit SA later this evening, they won’t go to “Central and Marine” they’d likely go to “Alpine and South” because we are on the southern side of Aus, but if they were an old WZ folk then they can go to the WZ Forum Users -> SA -> deep low with front July 4-9

    While it may seem the obvious to you, it may not be to others; Central I’d instantly think Central Aus So Alice springs and surrounds not Adelaide or South SA.

    Only trying to help...
     
  22. Richard

    Richard Maintenance Dept Administrator

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    ok back to considering climate bands

    I think we all concur that the following terms are are relatively clear to most people and they will self-identify correctly for folk in the North and Eastern states.

    Tropics - northern WA/NT/QLD, TC & monsoon talk belongs in here.
    Subtropics - SEQ/NE NSW, NSW
    Alpine & Southern - VIC, southern NSW?

    So the issue is SA and WA.

    (We'll leave World & General out of any further conversation because that's a done deal.)


    IF we create one more sub-forum. Then we need a name that clearly defines those two localities and is consistent with the climate band theme we got.

    I'm not naming anything 'Mediterranean' it's just never going to work with a noob to weather. The young person who's kinda interested and not very technical but wants to start their journey.

    However, we also need to be correct to attract technical people who bring the most value to the community.

    (so.. many small things)

    So is what we are looking for called the

    'Temperate Central & West'

    The list shape is now;

    Weather
    Southern & Alpine
    The Tropics & Cyclones
    Subtropics & Marine
    Temperate Central & West​
     
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  23. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Presumably if the extra sub-forum turns into a ghost town you will recombine
     
  24. Richard

    Richard Maintenance Dept Administrator

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    This is quick n' dirty approach to capturing good will.

    I'm betting that the mistake cd weather is making is that to create a single sub-forum based on the name of a community that just got shuttered will make it insular. It's a club. It's something you needed to belong to previously and it's not even open to the community that it just got grafted onto.

    We have a weather community here already (one that is bigger than what was left of WZ at the end) and the goal is integration, not division. Naming a sub-forum 'Weatherzone users' is to create factions that will inevitably split tracking of the same weather system.
     
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  25. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    I understand where you're coming from.
    You're saying from a regional climate POV, SA and southern WA have a Mediterranean climate and that's what's used in those places. However, in an Aussie ski site, that has a lot of OS travel links, "Mediterranean"is just confusing, because people outside of those regions don't know that terminology. Point taken though, that it's easier for SA posters to spot it.

    That's why I think Central to West temperate is good. Everybody should understand that. :thumbs:
     
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  26. Richard

    Richard Maintenance Dept Administrator

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    Yep.
     
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  27. MegaMatch

    MegaMatch One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    I've gotta respond to this because that's not entirely true. All some of us are trying to do is negotiate for somewhere in between since you did offer us a new home and welcomed new suggestions on how to make this work. We've already stated numerous times that we don't expect individual sub-forums for each state, that would be completely overkill. An approach that aims for somewhere in between I would think would be the best solution. Lumping SA, WA, NSW and QLD all together is a huge change to ask of ex WZ users to adapt to, which is why, as Teck said, many will just stick to the alternative. Either you want those users or you don't, and they won't come here if the layout is too foreign to them.
     
  28. Richard

    Richard Maintenance Dept Administrator

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    Yes, sorry,

    My meaning is "You guys" as in collectively the bulk of WZ rusted-ons. Not you personally in this thread. That is evident.

    this is all good.
     
  29. StormCapture

    StormCapture Early Days

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    Pretty much, all we ask is for basic sense of direction so we know where to post our topics
    But I think many will choose the alternatives at this stage in time
     
  30. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    @Richard is trying to be flexible here.... Otherwise he would never have opened up this topic for discussion. And he's listening to all of your opinions.
    He doesn't want to disrupt the 100s of posters we have had here for years, so they can't find things, but he wants to accommodate ex WZ users.....
    It's a balance which I think he's handled well.

    We all appreciate your opinions....
     
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  31. person s

    person s Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    no need to bring politics into it
     
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  32. Trail Blazer

    Trail Blazer Part of the Furniture

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    Perfect, IMO
     
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  33. Homer

    Homer One of Us

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    I'm not sure they will.
    "Many" are already here, and posting regularly.
    There's already over 100 posts in both the NSW and NE NSW and SE QLD threads
     
  34. Donzah

    Donzah Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yeah the NE NSW/SE QLD thread is humming.
     
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  35. Richard

    Richard Maintenance Dept Administrator

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    Well I hope you are beginning to see that it aint that easy to create 'basic' when what we got is an attempt to merging two different communities - it's not a greenfield implementation.

    The challenges are just as hard at CD and AWS. Different challenges for different reasons but none of this is going to be easy sailing for them either. You guys just lost your home. It's disruptive by nature.

    (imaging trying to solve real world problems such as the european refugee crisis!!!)
     
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  36. MegaMatch

    MegaMatch One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Yes but hardly anyone from SA or WA because apparently they don't see their states as being part of the Subtropics (which I never even thought about until it was raised today).
     
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  37. trappers

    trappers Safety not guaranteed Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Hmm this seems pretty basic to me:
    Weather
    Southern & Alpine
    The Tropics & Cyclones
    Subtropics & Marine
    Temperate Central & West

    The new forum structure is young, it will evolve, so be patient.

    It is a bit like moving into a new house. You leave things packed for a while as you try and figure out how to use the space, and then slowly, as you get more comfortable with it, you begin to change things around. At the start it is a bit of a mess but it grows on you.

    What you DO NOT do when moving into a new place is immediately make large long term investments that are hard to roll back. You start simple, and then grow from there (or at least I do). This is classic management of change. :)
     
  38. MegaMatch

    MegaMatch One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    But you're missing 'World' in that list which would make 5 different sub-forums. Otherwise, I like it.
     
  39. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    I think Richard may live to regret this.
     
  40. Richard

    Richard Maintenance Dept Administrator

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    Lets just assume General & World is locked down and a given.
     
  41. Seabreezes

    Seabreezes One of Us

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    I thought the headings were fine as they were originally, just that Sth WA and especially SA would be a better fit for southern.

    Alpine & Southern - SENSW, VIC, TAS, SA, Sth WA (more-or-less all border the Southern Ocean, with frontal activity an important feature of their climates, especially in winter)
    Subtropics & Marine - NSW & NENSW/SEQLD (the bulk of WZ migrants are from NSW & NENSW/SEQLD) (Subtropics avoids the confusion that would come with using Eastern)
    Tropical (or The Tropics) & Cyclones - NT, Nth WA, and the rest of QLD
     
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  42. Richard

    Richard Maintenance Dept Administrator

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    Yep

    I just created Temperate Central & West and it feels at odds.

    I got another idea which will take 30 min or so to implement sufficiently for discussion.
     
  43. Trail Blazer

    Trail Blazer Part of the Furniture

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    Given Perth is further north than Sydney, I think having that region in southern could be confusing, which I why I like Richard's latest suggested split. It's a bit of a non-issue anyway, the WA day to day thread on WZ has had 13 posts in the last month (all the same poster).
     
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  44. MegaMatch

    MegaMatch One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Yeah I forgot to mention, most of the WA community moved from WZ long ago to their own forum so I don't think we'll get many WA posters from WZ over here anyway.
     
  45. Richard

    Richard Maintenance Dept Administrator

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    hmmmm
     
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  46. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    There maybe a message in that.
     
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  47. Richard

    Richard Maintenance Dept Administrator

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    Yep,

    back to where we were yesterday with Adelaide and South WA in Alpine & Southern

    Temperate Central & West was going to be home to just Adelaide - assuming anyone comes over. WZ is going to splinter all over the place and I think I just have to look after what makes sense for a natural expansion of our Weather (which was overdue anyway)

    I've put large font notices up on the three forums using the same state acronyms as weatherzone as guidance.

    Will leave it at that for the remainder of the week.
     
  48. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    dumb question:

    on the page that comes up if you click on weather forum, rather than a sub-forum, is there scope to add that state info somehow
     
  49. Richard

    Richard Maintenance Dept Administrator

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    kinda, the description is there as mouseover on the title - however on tablet and mobile it displays.

    That's a CSS behaviour that I was not aware of until trying to work all this out. It might be configurable or I can hack the CSS.
     
  50. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    :thumbs:

    didn't try mouseover. have now
    BTW
    on my cheap mobile it doesn't display in portrait. i tried landscape out of interest and it does.(and I know your opinion on how many people use phones in landscape :) )
    tablet is fine both ways
     
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