Diamond pattern chains at Hotham

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Not sure why not able to post in original "spider chain" topic, (no reply box)
so take 2 - " Diamond pattern chain at Hotham"

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08-06-2013 11:01 - ID#1986447 - [Re: snowtyres]

This correctly fitted, correct size chain, came off the tyre on the BMW X5 multiple times due to the lack of grip from the tyre to the chain and not because it is the wrong size or because it was incorrectly fitted.

Image # 3 shows Thule XG-12 267,
is this correct size for this tyre? YES
(Same chain as Konig S267)
Image # 1 & # 2 shows Konig S267,
is this correct size for this tyre? YES

Is the Thule XG-12 267 snow chain correctly fitted in image # 3 ? YES

Is the tyre the same size on the same vehicle in image # 2 & # 3 ? YES

When the size 267 snow chain is correctly fitted does the tensioning chain, image # 3, still have adjustment left ? YES

Will the auto tensioner continue to tighten the adjusting chain if a chain 'slips' off the tyre and becomes loose ? YES
 

teckel

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Do we have to (have pics of that particular tyre)?
Most of what ST (at least in the post above) says is correct (disagree with the grip bit)
Somebody who didn't know if he had self-tensioners or not at the start of the thread, now professes to be a chain expert and refuses to accept that he may be wrong. Do we really want to continue this?

The discussion on Hotham and chains should continue, as it's very important, but to continue the crazy discussion on this series of photos really isn't warranted, imo.
 

Hully

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Diamond pattern chains may be able to prevent car wrecks but nothing is going to stop this thread heading into another train wreck
smile.gif
 
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Sandy

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Here are the three photos that Snowtyres should have posted, to avoid confusion:

DHNNsm2.jpg


7XNTt2W.jpg


WFYSygK.jpg


#1 & #2 (Konig S267) are incorrectly fitted.

The give away is the position of the rear blue ring: It's sitting up on the tyre tread. But it needs to be pushed all the way back over to the rear of the tyre when first fitted. The guide when fitting, is to position the length wise chain in the middle of the treads, but these are sitting on the SIDE of the tyre.
Once this incorrect positioning is established, the front blue chains are able to produce a smaller radius, so when you thread the yellow tightener it will tighten too far ("no adjustment left"), giving an inexperienced fitter of these chains the impression that the chains are too big.


I'm a little surprised that an expert like Snowtyres didn't pick up this basic error.
 
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main street

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CarveMan said:
snowtyres - can you PLEASE learn how to use the quote function.

Your posts lose all their value as they are barely recognisable.


Ummm,..... CM.

Kinda tough to quote from a locked thread.

#JustSayin.
 
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teckel

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Hully said:
Diamond pattern chains may be able to prevent car wrecks but nothing is going to stop this thread heading into another train wreck
smile.gif
Dead cert. I'm making no further comments on the ridiculous debate about 267 chains on a 20 inch rim, but will participate in discussion of chains at Hotham in general.
 
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CarveMan

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main street said:
CarveMan said:
snowtyres - can you PLEASE learn how to use the quote function.

Your posts lose all their value as they are barely recognisable.


Ummm,..... CM.

Kinda tough to quote from a locked thread.

#JustSayin.

Yeah, but in general his posts are impossible to read due to lack of quote function.
 
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Astro66

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teckel said:
Somebody who didn't know if he had self-tensioners or not at the start of the thread, now professes to be a chain expert and refuses to accept that he may be wrong.
Teckel, I have a diploma in engineering. I am certified by the Australian Institute of Engineers. I hold the position of Principal Engineer, in a company of tens of thousands.

Exactly what are your qualifications Teckel ?

This exact phenomenon of the inner ring rolling out on to top of the tyre has happened to me, in my 30 years of driving to the snow.

It has occurred when I have fitted too large a chain to a tyre. (Got new vehicle. Too cheap to buy new chains.)

It has also occurred to me on the road to Guthega when I had the correct size chain, but was young and thought I would drift the car round every corner at above rated speeds.

We need a before photo of the fitted chains to make any assessment. But if, as an engineer, I had to make a call. I would say, the chain needs a blue link or two taken out. So at no point, will the chain ever contract to it’s smallest size whilst fitted.
 
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teckel

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The chain may not have been fitted properly in your case - eg: not tight enough.
267 is the manufacturer's recommendation for that tyre size of the beamer. Maybe you should tell Konig they're wrong?
The reason that chain came off was the 20" rim - no sidewall to speak of to hold the chain in place. Car should have had spider chains. It's why spider chains were invented.
 

teckel

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Donza said:
can someone Summarize their arguments?
Hotham has banned spider chains.
Everyone thinks this is a dumb idea except ST who think it might increase his sale of winter tyres.
Meanwhile Astro thinks he's an expert on chains. He bought a second hand pair of Skipass (or similar), has never laid eyes on Konig Magic self-tensioners except in a video, but knows more about them than ST, Konig or anyone else.
 
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Donza

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Ahh I see....
and he still maintains the bit of magic rubber is a self tensioner?

BTW that pic of that BMW with those ugly chains is laugh worthy.
 

teckel

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Donza said:
BTW that pic of that BMW with those ugly chains is laugh worthy.
Yes. That happened because:
a) ST claims the tyre couldn't grip the chains and he should have had winter tyres, and indeed he has sold the guy new wheels, winter tyres and diamond patterned chains to fit new tyres
b) Astro claims the chains were the wrong size for the tyre
c) I claim that that tyre should never have diamond patterned chains fitted because there's no real side wall to hold them on, but should have had spider chains.
 
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Astro66

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Logic is logic. We have a photo of an X5 with the inner loop wrapped over the top of the tyre. So how did it get there ?

The photo clearly showing the chain contracted to it's smallest position.

So it is not ilogical to conclude,

1) The chain was a fraction too big. (My Skipass chains were designed for my exact tyre, but could do with a link taken out). I have posted photos proving they are correct.
2) The chain was fitted incorrectly, as Sandy has pointed out.
3) The vehicle was driven in a manner exceeding the chains specification.

ST conclusion that you need to buy new tyres, rims and then also chains, to fit the new setup. Is pure profiteering. It would not surprise me if he walks around the carparks around the ski fields after snow, photographing incorrectly fitted chains, and leaving notes on windscreens, detailing repairs that will amount to huge sales for him.

He is more than welcome to do that. But post it in our community, and he will be challenged.
 

Donza

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a) why would the durometer of the tyre affect the ability of a chain to grip? Also surely as a tyre warms up through driving its grippiness is varied..This doesn't make sense.
b) well they do look the wrong size and put on terribly. The chain link is pulled all the way though the ratchet. probaly as a result of the tyre fouling
c) yeah I could see why minimal sideway would affect snow chains. The links aren't exactly that flexible. To go from flat on surface of tyre to vertical and fixed properly requires a diatance. A short sidewall would prevent this from occuring
 

Astro66

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Claude Cat said:
And never driven the GAR in winter
wink.gif
I have. My family have done a week at Mt Beauty, skiing Falls.

We have driven to Hotham twice for the day.

Road was clear, and did not require chains.
 
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Astro66

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Donza said:
a) c) yeah I could see why minimal sideway would affect snow chains. The links aren't exactly that flexible. To go from flat on surface of tyre to vertical and fixed properly requires a diatance. A short sidewall would prevent this from occuring
I agree the smaller side wall does not help. And would only exacerbate any issue with fitting.
 
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Donza

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Yeah sorry..I should have said...have ended up looking terrible.

I'm leaning towards minimal sidewalls affected the chain.
 

Donza

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AstroSki66 said:
Donza said:
a) c) yeah I could see why minimal sideway would affect snow chains. The links aren't exactly that flexible. To go from flat on surface of tyre to vertical and fixed properly requires a diatance. A short sidewall would prevent this from occuring
I agree the smaller side wall does not help. And would only exacerbate any issue with fitting.
well you couldn't fit, the chain design prevents that.
might look fitted, but would come off.
 
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teckel

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Astro, Don't remove links from your blue chain. If you think it's getting close to too long, slip the yellow chain through the blue chain the next chain section after the red hook and then hook it off. That pulls the blue chain in tightly. No need to remove links.
 

Astro66

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I normally just clip the top joiner to a link infront, Then if it all works OK, just snip the link off. But yes that would also work, especially for hire chains, where the store owner may not appreciate.
 


"We need a before photo of the fitted chains to make any assessment."

Please understand, these images were supplied by the user, not by me, and were taken AFTER they had come off the tyre.
The chains were CORRECTLY fitted, as shown in image #3, and yes the chains were fitted tight enough, this is the design function of the auto tensioner.

Spider chains would NOT, and can NOT have worked any better.
For two simple reasons,
A) the chain mesh is required to be much looser on the tyre tread because of the automatic, drive away fitting principle.
B) there is no chain on the inside of the tyre at all, only on the outer section of the tread of the tyre.

I will post some images next week (can not do it now-in wikiki for our daughter's wedding) of a spider chain fitted to this tyre size and hopefully you will then understand that the Hotham RMB is correct in their determination not to permit the use of spider chains.
 

Astro66

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There are spider chains that bolt to the wheel hub. They would work better.

If you fit them correctly, and drive them to their rated specification, they will not fall off. But as they are bolted to the hub. There is zero case to fit snow tyres, (Even trumped up ones like your previous posts) so your opposition is not unexpected.

I have seached the internet for reports they fall off. They do not exist. Only Hotham hearsay.
 

dossa5

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Donza said:
Gee, you two are sort of agreeing.

yep

was Astro666 v Teckel v Snowtyres
now Astro/Teckel v Snowtyres

Still - a good read and enjoyable lol- sorry bout this post Tecks, must be the rain.
 
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Astro66

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teckel said:
But when you change your car, and you try to sell your chains - they're not the size you said they were. Not very nice to the new buyer.
Agree, but my priority is not to damage my vechicle as I don't own the vehicle. I own the chains.

I have never onsold chains. But if I did, I would definitely advertise, I have removed a link. For 50 bucks it's definitely pays to, fully disclose the condition of what you are selling.
 
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Astro66

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Agree, no need. Just want.

Much easier to hook green top joiner if you remove link. Also, the link will be swinging in the breeze. Looks untidy.

Teckel, I always plan double redundanacy. Including my chains. You can ask any of the forum members who have travelled to the snow with me. I will always set things up perfectly. And have a plan B for everything. I don't cut corners.

2 googles, 2 gloves, 2 sets of clothes, Spare Stock, 2 communication systems, Always carry rain puncho, Spare chain. Spare everything.
 

Barras

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snowtyres said:
hopefully you will then understand that the Hotham RMB is correct in their determination not to permit the use of spider chains.

So will you stop selling spider chains at your store?
 
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teckel

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AstroSki66 said:
Agree, no need. Just want.

Much easier to hook green top joiner if you remove link. Also, the link will be swinging in the breeze. Looks untidy.
No, you only ever hook it to the last link. So nothing will swing in the breeze to damage wheels. Or look untidy.
 
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hipo

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What's all this talk about spider chains being banned at Hotham... I have re-read the notice from Hotham and the article in the annual report and I cannot see any specific reference to spider chains.
The articles state that chains must
1)have a diamond pattern and
2)have a part of the chain in contact with the road at all times
.
I would say that some spider style chains comply with both 1 and 2
and many so called diamond pattern chains do not comply with part 2

So I would be thinking that there are going to be more people driving on "illegal diamond pattern" chains to Hotham then there will be with spider chains that don't have the diamond pattern.
 
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Astro66

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Agree Hip.

Another gaping hole in Hotham's enforcement.

That said, who's willing to risk $2800 to test the regulations.

I also don't get why the other thread was locked. Then an identical thread started, with a title that is better advertising for Hotham and diamond pattern chains.

Happy to discuss this off the boards. But am currently feeling manipulated.

Couldn't give a toss about diamond pattern chains. Pissed off SPIDER CHAINS ARE BANNED BY HOTHAM.
 

currawong

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The article on their website says no spider chains
http://www.mthotham.com.au/travel/road/driving/ said:
Important Note for all guests about snow chains and driving to Hotham Alpine Resort:

Diamond pattern snow chains (ladder chains, spider chains and snow socks are not permitted) are now mandatory for all vehicles at all times during the declared snow season and must be fitted where directed. It is a legal requirement for all vehicles entering the Mount Hotham Alpine Resort, and it is also a safety measure.

You can hire chains at the base of the mountain, in Harrietville from Hotham Sports or Hoys Ski Centre or in Omeo from various Service Stations. Hoys chain fitting service operates on the Harrietville approach of the Great Alpine Road when vehicles are required to fit them. This is a free service for Hoys chain customers.

Please note, if the weather is producing snowfalls or low visibility, there may be delays on the Great Alpine Road. If guests are coming from Melbourne during these times we recommend using the Great Alpine Road via Omeo as an alternative route to getting here.
 
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Claude Cat

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Where do you interpret spider chain = diamond chain.
They are not one and the same.

And BTW, by taking a link out of your diamond chain you are modifying it from original spec and also not confirming
wink.gif
 
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teckel

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Oh dear! Some people! A diamond-patterned chain is a chain type. A spider chain is another chain type. A spider chain can not be a diamond-patterned chain even it is diamond studded all over. It's still a spider chain - just a bloody expensive one. Semantics won't get you anywhere on this issue.
 

Astro66

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Diamond Pattern is a pattern shaped like a diamond last time I checked.

Snow chains are normally classified by their Austrian Standard ONORM.

Happy to be corrected.
 

dossa5

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1)have a diamond pattern and
2)have a part of the chain in contact with the road at all times
.
I would say that some spider style chains comply with both 1 and 2
and many so called diamond pattern chains do not comply with part 2

So I would be thinking that there are going to be more people driving on "illegal diamond pattern" chains to Hotham then there will be with spider chains that don't have the diamond pattern. [/quote]

I can guarantee that my old diamond patterns which I still use do not contact the road at all times- at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock there is a huge gap. But they are classified as diamond chains so rmb can go and ..........

Those spiders of which you speak would have far superior grip than mine. I need snow tyres (tongue firmly in cheek)
 
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