Diamond pattern chains at Hotham

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Astro66

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Hothski said:
Rover said:
I will wave as I go past

I will

Unfortunately you wont. That's because the road will be blocked by someone who thinks that he/she is more important than any regulations put forward.

In my world, I'd just call that being selfish.
Oh, and retrospectively banning peeps who have invested thousands in cars and chains, and giving them no option but to take the bus, without a shred of documented evidence, isn't.
rolleyes.gif


Quite a culture in Hotham. <shakes head>
 
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Astro66

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Rover said:
AstroSki66 said:
Rover said:
Come on down to hotham this weekend Astro...and you might see what the real issues that the gar presents during a blizzard....
Bro, I eat blizzards.
tongue.gif
That That might be the case....but I am sure it will be you stuck half way up crb with a thrown chain because you were spinning your wheels....as you have admitted to recklessly doing.....now you will be holding up a whole mountain of traffic....I will wave as I go past

I will
Ouch.......... Burn !!!
rolleyes.gif
 
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Rover

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Hold on...ski patrol have recommended closing a run...but they have decided that a committee needs to be formed to investigate the closure first....they will get back to us sometime in the next 24 months after an overseas junket to ensure that the latest k2 skis will not handle the conditions
 

Hothski

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AstroSki66 said:
Oh, and retrospectively banning peeps who have invested thousands in cars and chains, and giving them no option but to take the bus, without a shred of documented evidence, isn't.
rolleyes.gif


Quite a culture in Hotham. <shakes head>

No "retrospective" banning of anything. In fact the decision was announced before the end of last season.

Had also been discussed for many years, including a 'recommendation' that only diamond chains be used for many years.

What is wrong with the bus anyway? Don't need the car when you are skiing?
 
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ODNT

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Rover said:
Hold on...ski patrol have recommended closing a run...but they have decided that a committee needs to be formed to investigate the closure first....they will get back to us sometime in the next 24 months after an overseas junket to ensure that the latest k2 skis will not handle the conditions
laugh.gif
 
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Astro66

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Rover said:
Hold on...ski patrol have recommended closing a run...but they have decided that a committee needs to be formed to investigate the closure first....they will get back to us sometime in the next 24 months after an overseas junket to ensure that the latest k2 skis will not handle the conditions
Closing a run compares with totally banning an entire technology, in a world first . When that technology has been used for years, issue free, worldwide, with car manufacturers recommendation.
rolleyes.gif


Straw grasping engaged.
laugh.gif
 
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Astro66

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Hothski said:
AstroSki66 said:
Oh, and retrospectively banning peeps who have invested thousands in cars and chains, and giving them no option but to take the bus, without a shred of documented evidence, isn't.
rolleyes.gif


Quite a culture in Hotham. <shakes head>

No "retrospective" banning of anything. In fact the decision was announced before the end of last season.

Had also been discussed for many years, including a 'recommendation' that only diamond chains be used for many years.

What is wrong with the bus anyway? Don't need the car when you are skiing?
So Hotham will refund all expenses made prior to announcement, will they?
rolleyes.gif
 
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Rover

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so it seems by that letter that consultation was made with Vic Roads and the Victorian police.
I was always of the understanding that at Hotham only Diamond Pattern were acceptable.
If this is the case, maybe its up to the manufacturer to prove and demonstrate suitability to Vicroads, Police and RMB.

Astro, maybe this is who you should be writing to, rather than continue to make a fool of yourself here. Also include your local member of parliament if you think that due course has not been followed.
If you choose to do this, please do not mention that you fall under the category of "hoon" here in Victoria, and also don't mention that you have only been to Hotham a handful of times.

I look forward to seeing a copy of your letter and what responses you get.

Thank you for taking up this thankless crusade on behalf of all Victorians who are sick of being oppressed but are too scared to do anything about it as you guys north of the border are so superior in everything you do.
 

teckel

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I would question if the determination above is legal:
Part 2, Regulation 8
Board may determine parts of alpine resort to which entry is prohibited
8. Board may determine parts of alpine resort to which entry is prohibited
(1) The Board of an alpine resort may determine that any area in the alpine
resort is an area where entry-
(a) is prohibited; or
(b) is prohibited during the times determined by the Board; or
(c) is prohibited for certain persons or classes of person as determined
by the Board; or
(d) is prohibited for certain vehicles or classes of vehicle as determined
by the Board.


(2) A determination under subregulation (1) may be made for all or any of the
following-
(a) reasons of public safety; or
(b) to re-establish vegetation or to protect, conserve or preserve flora,
fauna or natural features; or
(c) to carry out works or improvements or to protect works, improvements,
facilities or amenities; or
(d) to protect water supply catchments or waterways or the water quality
of water supply catchments or waterways; or
(e) any other purpose connected with the protection, control and
management of the alpine resort.

(3) A determination under subregulation (1) must specify-
(a) the times or periods during which entry is prohibited; and
(b) the reasons why entry is prohibited; and
(c) the persons or class of persons or vehicles or class of vehicles to
which entry to that part of the alpine resort is prohibited (if any).

(4) A person must not enter an area in an alpine resort in contravention of a
determination under subregulation (1).

Penalty: 10 penalty units.
Presumably, they are saying certain classes of vehicles, but chains do not constitute vehicles. Any legal eagles here who could say whether their determination is enforceable?
 
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Yardsale

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AstroSki66 said:
If Hotham RMB wish to offer me a set Spider chains. I'd gladly give them a run. Spider Spikes please.
biggrin.gif

Oh, so you don't even have said traction devices.

So you're complaining that no one will hire you chains you don't have on a car that won't fit them to go to a hill you never go to?

Ok.

I think I'll leave the final word with DHS and Rover then.
 
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Rover

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teckel said:
With reference to Rover, he has less relevance to the topic than Astro, given that he advertises he's from Dallas, Texas!
But a resident of Harrietville for the season .........and been ski-ing Hotham for too many years to remember...
most based out of Harrietville.
 
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FlatLander

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Hucky said:
FlatLander said:
All good points Hucky

Although, visitors travelling the GAR (and most other places) don't read signs. I mean how many signs would it take - 1 every 100 metres. I remember about 12 years ago a car drove off the edge (not intentionally, skidded on ice) near Danny's Lookout on opening weekend (Friday night). They went to the paper with their plight saying that VicRoads and Hotham resort should put up more signs to warn people that there may be ice. Well Heeelllo, they were travelling to an alpine resort, in winter and had passed about 15 signs warning of harards etc etc. But no they wanted more.

The RMB have no control over the Snow Clearing on the GAR. This is done be a VicRoads appointed contractor and kindly paid for by all Victorian taxpayers. I have no problem with the snow clearing. Your Resort Entry does not contribute to snow clearing on the GAR.

I somewhat agree with your point about the signs. Although I would still like to see ones advising slow drivers to pull over.

In regards to the snow clearing...Surely the RMB has some sway with the snow clearing. For example, if they were not happy with the VicRoads contractor's efforts then they would make their displeasure known. Just like they are concerned enough about visitors safety to partner with Police and VicRoads to ban spider chains.

But alas, it seems they are satisfied with the contractor! (I'm guessing they stay on mountain!) IMO the snow clearing is poor compared to other resorts. I regularly stay in Harrietville and when leaving at about 6:30 to catch first lifts the road has not always been cleared.

Hi Hucky yes the RMB can voice their displeasure to VicRoads. But the contractors make the call on road closures, chain fitting where and when.

As I said I don't have a problem with the clearing. As I love those early starts after a heavy low storm, as its you against the road. At those times its "OK every in and belts on" you then take a run at it from Harrietville and don't take your foot off the pedal until you are rolling through the tunnel at Hotham. Those are my favourite mornings eg first tracks on the road.

Snow clearing: you have to put this into perspective:
1. The VicRoads contractor has a 24/7 contract, although they make all calls with respect to safety.
2. Same contractor that clears the Alpine Way in NSW, and up to Perisher.
3. In NSW it is funded differently, and eg Fri night Sat morning clearing they are trying to get 10,000 cars onto the mountain, so they throw money at it.
4. At hotham - Fri night Sat morning clearing they are trying to get 500 - 700 cars onto the mountain so its funded accordingly.
5. So its not a factor of staff and machinery, its $$ driven.
6. Also the GAR to Hotham is a different beast to the other resorts, with snow clearing funded by the tax payers of Victoria (thank you)
as this is a Highway.
7. At Falls and Buller, I think the snow clearing is funded/subsidised by RMB/resort entry (can someone confirm).
8. At Buller they are lucky to get snow down to the car parks.
9. At Falls the car parks are at about 1400m asl. So less snow and not as exposed.
10. Comparing Hotham/GAR to Falls, equivalent on GAR would be like driving to the Buckland ticket box, parking and catching lifts up to ski.
11. So when everyone complains about lack of clearing on GAR, the clearers are dealing with about 20km of very exposed road, and during those heavy snowfalls are clearing this road for about 50km.
12. as soon as 1 car gets stuck (eg diamantina) then no one can get around, they cant clear around, and within that 30 mins/1 hour, there are drifts 1 metre deep and 20 other cars stuck, and it just compounds from there. end result traffic at a standstill, very little info is passed on as no one can get through, you have staff out there in the worst possible conditions trying to assist the first car. No one is happy! And after the first hour you have 20 cars stuck, and there is no way to have 20 crews on the road assisting each car stuck, so the crew has to assist 1-2 cars at a time. In that time another 20 cars are stuck. The clearers are too busy helping the stranded visitors to get down lower to clear/change signage, and or close the road at Harrietville. So by the time that happens another 100 cars have passed through the bottom gate and are on the road somewhere. They stop at Buckland as the snow is too deep, as the clearers cant get down. There is no one to tell them to stop/stay/go back, some do and then get stuck further down. So no one can get up or down. The clearers who are assisting stranded visitors higher up must clear them one by one, in an attempt to get further down. The stranded motorists at higher el's must be cleared first due to cold/windchill of around -25C. They clear the upper ones send them on their way, but low and behold they get stuck again. So 1/2 of the clearing crews are stuck in the middle. They call the crews from the DP side, who have to then leave that section of road....you guessed it cars then get stuck down that side. So to clear this mess up = road closed and 5-8 hours of work to assist stranded visitors - during which time the road cant be cleared effectively = road still closed and another 4-6 hours to make road safe.

sorry for the long post, but that's how it goes.
So my view is the RMB have made a decision (in consultation with Vicroads/Police) to try and assist in keeping visitors safe, traffic flowing = most people happy (except Astro)
 
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teckel

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teckel said:
I would question if the determination above is legal:
Part 2, Regulation 8
Board may determine parts of alpine resort to which entry is prohibited
8. Board may determine parts of alpine resort to which entry is prohibited
(1) The Board of an alpine resort may determine that any area in the alpine
resort is an area where entry-
(a) is prohibited; or
(b) is prohibited during the times determined by the Board; or
(c) is prohibited for certain persons or classes of person as determined
by the Board; or
(d) is prohibited for certain vehicles or classes of vehicle as determined
by the Board.


(2) A determination under subregulation (1) may be made for all or any of the
following-
(a) reasons of public safety; or
(b) to re-establish vegetation or to protect, conserve or preserve flora,
fauna or natural features; or
(c) to carry out works or improvements or to protect works, improvements,
facilities or amenities; or
(d) to protect water supply catchments or waterways or the water quality
of water supply catchments or waterways; or
(e) any other purpose connected with the protection, control and
management of the alpine resort.

(3) A determination under subregulation (1) must specify-
(a) the times or periods during which entry is prohibited; and
(b) the reasons why entry is prohibited; and
(c) the persons or class of persons or vehicles or class of vehicles to
which entry to that part of the alpine resort is prohibited (if any).

(4) A person must not enter an area in an alpine resort in contravention of a
determination under subregulation (1).

Penalty: 10 penalty units.
Presumably, they are saying certain classes of vehicles, but chains do not constitute vehicles. Any legal eagles here who could say whether their determination is enforceable?
Requoting because I fear it may have got lost at the bottom of the page.
 
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Charlie

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AstroSki66 said:
Yardsale said:
My thought would be, offer to help them test it out on your car and be part of the solution Astro.
If Hotham RMB wish to offer me a set Spider chains. I'd gladly give them a run. Spider Spikes please.
biggrin.gif


And I'll produce a properly documented report on their success or failure. Would sure be a break from reporting how well Sydney Siders process poo.
wink.gif

Just make sure that the vehicle is registered before you fit the spider!
 
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Skiddy85

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teckel said:
teckel said:
I would question if the determination above is legal:
Part 2, Regulation 8
Board may determine parts of alpine resort to which entry is prohibited
8. Board may determine parts of alpine resort to which entry is prohibited
(1) The Board of an alpine resort may determine that any area in the alpine
resort is an area where entry-
(a) is prohibited; or
(b) is prohibited during the times determined by the Board; or
(c) is prohibited for certain persons or classes of person as determined
by the Board; or
(d) is prohibited for certain vehicles or classes of vehicle as determined
by the Board.


(2) A determination under subregulation (1) may be made for all or any of the
following-
(a) reasons of public safety; or
(b) to re-establish vegetation or to protect, conserve or preserve flora,
fauna or natural features; or
(c) to carry out works or improvements or to protect works, improvements,
facilities or amenities; or
(d) to protect water supply catchments or waterways or the water quality
of water supply catchments or waterways; or
(e) any other purpose connected with the protection, control and
management of the alpine resort.

(3) A determination under subregulation (1) must specify-
(a) the times or periods during which entry is prohibited; and
(b) the reasons why entry is prohibited; and
(c) the persons or class of persons or vehicles or class of vehicles to
which entry to that part of the alpine resort is prohibited (if any).

(4) A person must not enter an area in an alpine resort in contravention of a
determination under subregulation (1).

Penalty: 10 penalty units.
Presumably, they are saying certain classes of vehicles, but chains do not constitute vehicles. Any legal eagles here who could say whether their determination is enforceable?
Requoting because I fear it may have got lost at the bottom of the page.

I actually made this point in the other thread. And its the snow, no shortage of legal types who will be upset if the get fined in there new BMW

I was always under the impression that it was Vic Roads problem between the yellow lines, and the RMBs outside of them, so that such a determination would actually have to be made by Vic Roads.
 
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FlatLander

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Skiddy85 said:
teckel said:
teckel said:
I would question if the determination above is legal:
Requoting because I fear it may have got lost at the bottom of the page.

I actually made this point in the other thread. And its the snow, no shortage of legal types who will be upset if the get fined in there new BMW

I was always under the impression that it was Vic Roads problem between the yellow lines, and the RMBs outside of them, so that such a determination would actually have to be made by Vic Roads.

Hi Skiddy85 that was my understanding as well, VicRoads maintain control/ownership of the GAR between the yellow lines, within and outside the resort boundary.
 
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Astro66

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Yardsale said:
AstroSki66 said:
If Hotham RMB wish to offer me a set Spider chains. I'd gladly give them a run. Spider Spikes please.
biggrin.gif
Oh, so you don't even have said traction devices.
So you're complaining that no one will hire you chains you don't have on a car that won't fit them to go to a hill you never go to?
Ok.
I think I'll leave the final word with DHS and Rover then.
Well done Yardy. You have hit the nail on the head.

The core difference between you and me. I actually care about someone other than myself.

The core difference between Hotham RMB and me. I would actually care if due process was circumvented and people were discriminated against for no good reason.

A piece of paper saying we talked to some “Experts†is good to wipe your butt.
It is not a proper Incident Investigation. Zero details or verification of any incident is being supplied.

The whole basis of the ban is supposed incidents, that there is zero record for, or any follow up of the incidents

What a pharken White Wash. <shakes head>

traffic flowing = most people happy (except Astro)
Or anyone who is being discriminated against, when they purchased vehicles and chains that did comply. And now have been told to take the bus.
 
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Astro66

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teckel said:
Question remains ..."Is the determination legal?"
Especially given what Skiddy & Flatlander have said.
Who want's to cop a fine, fight it in court, and find out, is more the question ?
 
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Yardsale

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AstroSki66 said:
The core difference between you and me. I actually care about someone other than myself.

The core difference between Hotham RMB and me. I would actually care if due process was circumvented and people were discriminated against for no good reason.

Sexual discrimination
Gender discrimination
Racial discrimination
Socio-economic discrimination
I guess I'd better add
Tyreological discrimination.

So call me a tyreologicalist-pig then.

People should form a tyre-liberation group to combat people like me. Tyres should be able to wear whatever kinky traction devicies they want, in public, at any time.

What do we want?
Rights for low profile tyres on prestige vehicles!
When do we want it?
Now!!!
 
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Rover

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Yardsale said:
AstroSki66 said:
The core difference between you and me. I actually care about someone other than myself.

The core difference between Hotham RMB and me. I would actually care if due process was circumvented and people were discriminated against for no good reason.

Sexual discrimination
Gender discrimination
Racial discrimination
Socio-economic discrimination
I guess I'd better add
Tyreological discrimination.

So call me a tyreologicalist-pig then.

People should form a tyre-liberation group to combat people like me. Tyres should be able to wear whatever kinky traction devicies they want, in public, at any time.

What do we want?
Rights for low profile tyres on prestige vehicles!
When do we want it?
Now!!!
laugh.gif
 
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Astro66

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Yardsale said:
AstroSki66 said:
The core difference between you and me. I actually care about someone other than myself.

The core difference between Hotham RMB and me. I would actually care if due process was circumvented and people were discriminated against for no good reason.

Sexual discrimination
Gender discrimination
Racial discrimination
Socio-economic discrimination
I guess I'd better add
Tyreological discrimination.

So call me a tyreologicalist-pig then.

People should form a tyre-liberation group to combat people like me. Tyres should be able to wear whatever kinky traction devicies they want, in public, at any time.

What do we want?
Rights for low profile tyres on prestige vehicles!
When do we want it?
Now!!!
Not saying you're a bad person.
Just that, you really don't mind if others get disadvantaged, by an unsubstantiated ruling. As long as you are not affected or actually gain advantage.
Perfectly natural attitude.
Just not mine.
 
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scullee

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snowtyres said:
FlatLander said:
Hucky said:
FlatLander said:
All good points Hucky

So my view is the RMB have made a decision (in consultation with Vicroads/Police) to try and assist in keeping visitors safe, traffic flowing = most people happy

Correct information and well explained Flatlander

I think a bigger question is why snowtyres still cant use the quote function.
 
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Astro66

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Charlie said:
Astro is really the Nelson Mandela of the snow community, or maybe Mother Teresa
Thank you Charlie. I'm leaning towards Martin Luther King

Glad to see someone gets it.
biggrin.gif
 
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Yardsale

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Not saying you're a bad person. [/quote]

Ah, the "no offence" suffix is added....

Just that, you really don't mind if others get disadvantaged, by an unsubstantiated ruling. As long as you are not affected or actually gain advantage.

And some behavioral analysis too.

Why should you be allowed to see an incident report involving parties other than yourself anyway? Lets take the police as an example - the categories of people allowed to see such reports is here:
http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?Document_ID=683
 
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crackson

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Yardsale, you post like someone with a vested interest in this or a connection to the fascist regime that started the issue.


On that alone, your opinion is worthless, like guru's.
 

crackson

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You're phenomenally awesome at pointing out grievances with other peoples posts, yet you think you're free to be a condescending patronising douche in your own posts.
 

Astro66

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Yardsale said:
AstroSki66 said:
Not saying you're a bad person.
Ah, the "no offence" suffix is added....
AstroSki66 said:
Just that, you really don't mind if others get disadvantaged, by an unsubstantiated ruling. As long as you are not affected or actually gain advantage.
And some behavioral analysis too.
Yardy, I thought you were taking offence, and I’m not here to do that. I’m explaining how at a moral level we differ.

If you don’t get or believe why I’m taking a stand, that’s fine. Don’t expect you too.

You questioned my motives. I answered. No offence intended.
smile.gif


Yardsale said:
Why should you be allowed to see an incident report involving parties other than yourself anyway? Lets take the police as an example - the categories of people allowed to see such reports is here:
http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?Document_ID=683
We are having a debate here on Hothams decision to ban Spider Chains. I have supplied many facts researched from the internet.

If you don’t have any facts to back your claims. Don’t take it out on me. Just say “I have zero facts to back anything I’m sayingâ€, and let peeps make their comments about your unsupported claims.
 
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Yardsale

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The problem is, I haven't made any claims about the chains other than saying I saw two sets come off.

The claims I have made relate to the responsible behavior of a board.



 

Yardsale

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crackson said:
Yardsale, you post like someone with a vested interest in this or a connection to the fascist regime that started the issue. On that alone, your opinion is worthless, like guru's.

Ever looked up Godwin's law?
 
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FlatLander

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Yardsale said:
crackson said:
Yardsale, you post like someone with a vested interest in this or a connection to the fascist regime that started the issue. On that alone, your opinion is worthless, like guru's.

Ever looked up Godwin's law?

Yardy you are now starting to frighten me, using all those big words and all...
 
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Astro66

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Debating on the internet requires one to support ones argument. For Example. I googled "Spider Chains falling off cars."

There is nothing about it on the internet other than this discussion. As they are used worldwide, it is reasonable to conclude, there is not a problem. And the Hotham issue is possibly explained by poor fitting or use of some exotic brand that doesn't work well.

Therefore I don't think it is unreasonable for me to ask for any properly documented evidence of Spider Chain failure other than hearsay. Especially as Hotham RMB have gone to the extreme of banning the technology completely.

This decision has disadvantaged many retrospectively and will disadvantage many more in the future.

I am against this decision. You are clearly for. If you want to prove there is a problem, show me something other than the evidence of a meeting to ban them. What evidence was presented at that meeting other than hearsay.

Car manufacturers recommendations for their use, is evidence that they work fine. (We have posted the web link where Volvo recommend the Centrax)

Where is yours that they don't work. I don't think I'm being unreasonable.
 

FlatLander

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Info from a US site re various types of chains ( I know not comprehensive proof)

Spike Spiders
•This item is more expensive than tire chains or cables–unless you live in an area where you will use them frequently.
•Spike Spiders are easier to install once set up—only takes a minute or so.
•You don’t have to get into the ice, snow, mud to make sure they are on right.
•Unfortunately, they sometimes fall off.
•They don’t break and damage your under carriage.
 
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teckel

"I'm not a cat"
Ski Pass
Oct 16, 2004
50,770
25,145
1,515
Narbethong, Vic
www.mysticmountainsskihire.com.au
FlatLander said:
apparently spider chains are also not permitted at Baw Baw

another linky
Not so. From the Baw Baw website:
Chains

All vehicles are required by law to carry chains during the declared snow season when entering Mt Baw Baw Alpine Resort (or where signage indicates), and must fit them when advised.

NO CHAINS, NO ENTRY!
◾Chains must be carried during the declared snow season regardless of snow conditions (June- September)
◾Diamond pattern chains are recommended due to the steep gradient of the access road
◾Ladder chains are prohibited at Mt Baw Baw
◾You will be denied access to the Resort if you do not have wheel chains so be sure to plan where you are going to hire chains if you do not own any. During the snow season, Baw Baw Sports & Outdoors have a chain hire and fitting service at the Mt Baw Baw Resort entry. Bookings are essential to ensure they have the correct size available for you. Contact Adam at Baw Baw Sports & Outdoors, Ph 1800 106 078
◾Upon entry to the Resort, you will be directed by Mountain Staff where and when to fit your chains. Depending on the snowfall this generally takes place once you have passed the Gate Entry. It is your responsibility to know how to fit wheel chains and ensure they are the correct size. If in doubt please ask your chain retailer for instructions.
http://mountbawbaw.com.au/plan-your-trip/chains/

Ski hire websites are not always accurate. There is one in this area that makes several false claims (eg: that they're the cheapest when they're not, and that health regs do not permit the hiring of gloves - again - utter b.s.).
 
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hipo

One off
Ski Pass
Jun 23, 2011
3,703
7,823
363
here and there
I've seen a couple of pairs of diamond pattern chains come off. Didn't stop to see if they were properly fitted or the correct size but I reckon the RMB should ban them as well.

In summary what I am saying is the RMB have unilaterally banned spider chains (the only style of chain that can be fitted to a large proportion of new cars) without
1) releasing any documented evidence of failures nor the cause of any such reported failures
2) Supporting consultation and agreement of problems with the Snow chain suppliers or manufacturers
3) Supporting consultation with the car manufacturers.

To go against world wide trends in the development of snow chains, I would think that the RMB would be only too happy to provide the reasons and FACTS behind such a ban so that other safety conscious people, resorts and authorities could benefit from Hothem's wisdom.

But no, NO substantiating facts just silence except for what appears to be a couple of trained yappers.
 

Hothski

Hard Yards
Jul 4, 2011
100
50
98
39
Melbourne Victoria
Flatlander summed it up perfectly with his post far above. Everything I wanted to say but couldn't be bothered sitting down and writing!

Decision made by people with far more experience with the management of the GAR than all of us put together.

I generally find it difficult to say anything positive about the MHRMB but on this issue, I can't see a problem.

If you are so worked up about this, think of it this way - you will actually save money by taking the bus!
Bus Fare is less than Car Resort Entry.........

Go on - waste some energy arguing about that
 

teckel

"I'm not a cat"
Ski Pass
Oct 16, 2004
50,770
25,145
1,515
Narbethong, Vic
www.mysticmountainsskihire.com.au
FlatLander said:
Info from a US site re various types of chains ( I know not comprehensive proof)

Spike Spiders
•This item is more expensive than tire chains or cables–unless you live in an area where you will use them frequently.
•Spike Spiders are easier to install once set up—only takes a minute or so.
•You don’t have to get into the ice, snow, mud to make sure they are on right.
•Unfortunately, they sometimes fall off.
•They don't break and damage your under carriage.
trappers said:
I'm struggling to understand the issue here ... if the resort are having to spend a large amount of time picking up broken chains, and rescuing people whose chains are broken, and many of those are spider chains, then why is banning them a bad idea?
But they don't break?
 
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scottski

A Local
Ski Pass
Sep 7, 2004
6,693
6,214
563
Homebush NSW
I broke a brand new set of Rudd diamond chains at Mt Hot Ham. Manage to get 2km use out of them. 500 meters and re tighten then 1.5 km to the feathertop corner and no further for the night. Not keen to drive down a snowy hill with poor weather, fading light and towing a trailer.

 

hipo

One off
Ski Pass
Jun 23, 2011
3,703
7,823
363
here and there
Hothski said:
Flatlander summed it up perfectly with his post far above. Everything I wanted to say but couldn't be bothered sitting down and writing!

Decision made by people with far more experience with the management of the GAR than all of us put together.

I generally find it difficult to say anything positive about the MHRMB but on this issue, I can't see a problem.

If you are so worked up about this, think of it this way - you will actually save money by taking the bus!
Bus Fare is less than Car Resort Entry.........

Go on - waste some energy arguing about that

There is NO discussion on whether I or anybody else uses the bus or drives.

All Flatlander has done is provide NO facts just some circular emotional defence, that even you Hothski couldn't be bothered to articulate, of a unsupported decision that defies the experience in all other jurisdictions.

This discussion is about why spider chains have been banned by MTRMB when NOBODY here can provide any supporting FACTS and the MHRMB has not provided any supporting FACTS specific to spider chains in their determination.
 
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Astro66

Still looking for a park in Thredbo
Ski Pass
Jul 27, 2009
19,165
17,713
813
Eastern Subs Syd
Finally the smoking gun that proves the incompetence of Hotham RMB.
The resort management board CEO, Jim Atteridge, says other chains are also being considered.
"The spider chain I've had a good look at it is actually a ladder chain but attached in a different way and they're quite problematic in our experience in the last three to four of these events," he said.
spikes-spider-alpine-pro.png




How could you call this a ladder chain.







spikes-spider-quick.png





He was clearly refering to this variation of the spiders.






He probably doesn't even know the diamond patterned variety exists.
Just ill-informed Process Bypassing idiots. <shakes head>
 
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Hothski

Hard Yards
Jul 4, 2011
100
50
98
39
Melbourne Victoria
hipo said:
unsupported decision that defies the experience in all other jurisdictions.

How many other jurisdictions (interesting word to use in this instance, but anyway) have the same characteristics as the GAR leading up to Hotham?

It is a unique set of circumstances that have led to this decision.

1. Snow is actually pretty rare in Australia - Without going into more detail, this means that your typical user of the GAR has very little experience driving in snowy conditions and likely hasn't specifically prepared themselves or their car. Any parallels drawn to overseas conditions/drivers/equipment used must take this into consideration.

2. GAR is not a simple Bottom to Top road. It travels for many kms along the top of a very exposed ridge. Similar roads that exist in other parts of the world are closed during winter. Conditions can and do change rapidly. 1m + snow drifts can and often form very quickly.

3. The road covers a large distance - most alpine roads in Australia (Those leading to Ski Resorts) are
a: much shorter, therefore less time driving in snow affected area
b: much lower elevation - again less time driving in snow affected area
The GAR involves a long drive above the snowline - unique in Australia - See Flatlander's post. Long section of road = difficult to manage

There WAS consultation about this decision - with the people that actually work on managing the road and have MUCH more experience than others.

Name just one other place in the world where these set of circumstances occur.

The closest I can think of are the NZ mountains. Their solution - just shut the road for a couple of days until it can be cleared.

I could go on and on but this has already wasted too much of my time. I have said from the start, this is a non-issue.

This is not a case of 'Oppression' or 'Dictatorship'. Instead, as a result, more people will get to Hotham safely and the road is less likely to be closed due to a blockage.
 
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Charlie

Still the most depraved poster here
Jun 27, 2002
24,952
8,855
1,063
Gippsland
FlatLander said:
apparently spider chains are also not permitted at Baw Baw

another linky

Baw Baw & Hotham are probably the most hazardous alpine roads in Mainland Australia,and Yardy would be amongst the most experienced users of the Hotham road
Neither of these roads can be compared with the doddle up to the NSW resorts
 
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