Diamond pattern chains at Hotham

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All snow chains, "spider" and diamond pattern, manufactured by Rud, Thule/Konig are approved,
and comply with, to the Austrian Standard - O NORM 5117.
This "O NORM 5117" marking is shown on the Rud, Konig and Thule snow chain packaging,
on the chain itself and in all the catalogues and brochures.

The O NORM V5117. Tests include
5.2.2.1 Full brake test
5.2.2.2 Circular path test
5.3 Dynamic throw off
5.4 Strength
5.5 Wear
5.6.1 General section quotes.

"The tyres (used for the snow chain test) have to be new M+S tyres in round shoulder construction".
(These "M+S tyres" are snow/winter tyres, with snow flake symbol)

There is NO performance test for snow chains to the Austrian Standard - O NORM 5117 fitted to summer tyres.

As Mount Hotham RMB, VicRoads and Victoria Police have found the issue with Rud Centrax & Thule/Konig K-Summit spider chains at Hotham, are when these spider chains are fitted to wheel/tyre combinations that have insufficient clearance to fit conventional chains and on wheel/tyre combinations applications where the vehicle manufacturer does not approve fitting of any snow chains.
 

Hothski

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teckel said:
Ben Lomond:

4143294.jpg

Buller road has switchbacks similar to this - cannot be compared to the Hotham Road. I have no experience with Ben Lomond. What altitude? How often is the road snow covered? Traffic? No disrespect to those who ski Ben Lomond, but I can't see the numbers using the road being anywhere near the Hotham usage.

Again, I stand by my point that the Hotham GAR is a UNIQUE road.
 
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Hothski

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I have strongly opposed the MHARMB in many other circumstances. In fact they quite often infuriate me! But I can't see the issue with this rule. Sorry
 

Yardsale

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I know that Guru, Rover and Dossa5 (and a few others who I don't know) who would drive that side regularly. As of about 5 years ago, I have swapped to the other side. On that side the snow socks and spider chains would probably be ok - if you have an epic day skiing, you get an epic drive home (ie: up to 40klm with chains on).

 

teckel

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Hothski said:
teckel said:
Ben Lomond:

4143294.jpg

Buller road has switchbacks similar to this - cannot be compared to the Hotham Road. I have no experience with Ben Lomond. What altitude? How often is the road snow covered? Traffic? No disrespect to those who ski Ben Lomond, but I can't see the numbers using the road being anywhere near the Hotham usage.

Again, I stand by my point that the Hotham GAR is a UNIQUE road.
FFS,m can't you see how exposed that road is? Above the snow line? How steep it is? And you compare it with Buller? You have destroyed your own credibility. Altitude vs latitude.
 
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teckel

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ST, learn to use quotes. Learn to cite sources. How are you privy to Hotham's issues as discussed with the police, when no one else seems to be? We can only assume you've made it up unless you state sources. Your response comes about 2 months after the question was asked, but it still hasn't answered it.
 

Astro66

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If you need to close the road. Close it. But FFS don't discriminate against a perfectly good technology, that the CEO has mistakenly concluded are the same as ladder.

Even ST says there is nothing wrong with the technology, if it's recommended by the car manufacturers.

If the road is safe to drive on regular Diamond Patterns. Then the overwhelming evidence shown here, means it's safe for the all chain, diamond-like, variety of Spiders.
 

cqen2l

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Bee + bonnet = Astro.

You don't do Hotham on a regular basis so time to retire yourself from this thread.
We've heard enough.
 

Astro66

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cqen2l said:
Bee + bonnet = Astro.

You don't do Hotham on a regular basis so time to retire yourself from this thread.
We've heard enough.
Another advocate for Freedom of Speech.
rolleyes.gif


I have been civil and 90% on topic. When the RMB rescind their decision and re-approve the technology, l'll retire.

Until such time, if peeps want to debate the issue, I'm happy batting for the negative. (Topic being, "Diamond pattern chains at Hotham")

If you wish to bat for the affirmative, state your case, and I will engage you on topic.
 
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scullee

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AstroSki66 said:
Finally the smoking gun that proves the incompetence of Hotham RMB.
The resort management board CEO, Jim Atteridge, says other chains are also being considered.
"The spider chain I've had a good look at it is actually a ladder chain but attached in a different way and they're quite problematic in our experience in the last three to four of these events," he said.
spikes-spider-alpine-pro.png




How could you call this a ladder chain.







spikes-spider-quick.png





He was clearly refering to this variation of the spiders.






He probably doesn't even know the diamond patterned variety exists.
Just ill-informed Process Bypassing idiots. <shakes head>

Are you sure or are you just adding pictures that suit your argument?
 
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scullee

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In the end Astro, vote with your feet, ski somewhere else, if its enough of an issue it might change. Personally I think in 12 months time it will all sort itself out and everyone else will have moved on.
 

Astro66

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@ scullee : This is the Rud Centrax that ST referenced .

How in anyone's mind could you conclude these are ladder.

1875_0.jpg


Re outcome: I am just debating a controversial decision. When interest fades. Regardless of outcome. So will the thread. IMO

Oh BTW, for those not familiar. This is ladder. Defined by the vertical rungs and nothing joining them on tyre face.

type-snow-chain-for-car-267.jpg
.
 
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dossa5

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Yardsale said:
I know that Guru, Rover and Dossa5 (and a few others who I don't know) who would drive that side regularly. As of about 5 years ago, I have swapped to the other side. On that side the snow socks and spider chains would probably be ok - if you have an epic day skiing, you get an epic drive home (ie: up to 40klm with chains on).

As a constant user of the GAR it makes it difficult at times to consider it a dangerous road because as with most things done on a regular basis, it just becomes easy. That is not too say I haven't seen many accidents, you just become aware and automated to the driving conditions. I have helped many freaked out peeps along the way, most occuring problem would be driving ability to the conditions. I have even swapped drivers if I have someone else in my car and politely driven other peeps cars up for them if time is on my side. (Just thought of a business venture)
laugh.gif
.

With respect to you Astro I understand where you're coming from with the rmb decision- (it would could have been handled better as far as public relations go) but you dont seem to be directly effected.

I'm more concerned about the trees lower down than any of the exposed areas up top.

And snowtyres answer Tecks question.
 
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Astro66

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dossa5 said:
With respect to you Astro I understand where you're coming from with the rmb decision- (it would could have been handled better as far as public relations go) but you dont seem to be directly effected.
With respect (And I won't call you on the precursor like Yardy did.
wink.gif
). Since when do you have to be directly affected to get involved in a Forum discussion.

As many have pointed out, we are not knowingly directly engaging anyone. It's just a discussion.
 
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cqen2l

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AstroSki66 said:
cqen2l said:
Bee + bonnet = Astro.

You don't do Hotham on a regular basis so time to retire yourself from this thread.
We've heard enough.
Another advocate for Freedom of Speech.
rolleyes.gif


I have been civil and 90% on topic. When the RMB rescind their decision and re-approve the technology, l'll retire.

Until such time, if peeps want to debate the issue, I'm happy batting for the negative. (Topic being, "Diamond pattern chains at Hotham")

If you wish to bat for the affirmative, state your case, and I will engage you on topic.
I've driven to Hotham every year, up to 5 visits a season for the past 38 years. I think I can speak with some authority, a tad more experience than you.
Early years were all on ladder chains and I can recall numerous hairy moments such as being stationery yet sliding sideways.
Have thrown ladder chains numerous times despite being properly fitted and correct size.
Have NEVER had an issue with diamond pattern chains.
To me the spider chains seem to be a convenience appliance that would suit some folk despite their apparent inadequacies?
Obviously that's your demographic. Have fun in the NSW resorts Astro boy.
 
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ODNT

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AstroSki66 said:
@ scullee : This is the Rud Centrax that ST referenced .

How in anyone's mind could you conclude these are ladder.

1875_0.jpg


Re outcome: I am just debating a controversial decision. When interest fades. Regardless of outcome. So will the thread. IMO

Oh BTW, for those not familiar. This is ladder. Defined by the vertical rungs and nothing joining them on tyre face.

type-snow-chain-for-car-267.jpg
.
Those two above have rungs like a ladder
outtahere.gif
 
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Astro66

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cqen2l said:
I've driven to Hotham every year, up to 5 visits a season for the past 38 years. I think I can speak with some authority, a tad more experience than you.
Early years were all on ladder chains and I can recall numerous hairy moments such as being stationery yet sliding sideways.
Have thrown ladder chains numerous times despite being properly fitted and correct size.
Have NEVER had an issue with diamond pattern chains.
To me the spider chains seem to be a convenience appliance that would suit some folk despite their apparent inadequacies?
Obviously that's your demographic. Have fun in the NSW resorts Astro boy.
Welcome to the Jungle, bro.
wink.gif

I like your post.
thumbsup.gif


I disagree on several points, but on grounds I have previously stated. As I'm copping flack for repeating issues. I'll leave it alone.
smile.gif
 
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ODNT

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AstroSki66 said:
ODNT said:
Those two above have rungs like a ladder
outtahere.gif
Stick to Oppression. Comedy doesn't suit you.
wink.gif
outtahere.gif
bro, there was no oppression
I feel they think they made a decision based on there best interests
I've never said who was right or wrong
I just keep to the facts
you either accept the new terms or you walk
 
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Astro66

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ODNT said:
AstroSki66 said:
ODNT said:
Those two above have rungs like a ladder
outtahere.gif
Stick to Oppression. Comedy doesn't suit you.
wink.gif
outtahere.gif
bro, there was no oppression
I feel they think they made a decision based on there best interests
I've never said who was right or wrong
I just keep to the facts
you either accept the new terms or you walk
And back to Oppression
rolleyes.gif
No matter what you put in your sig. True colours always shines through, Bro.
laugh.gif
 
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ODNT

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How its that oppression
what other options do you have
you either accept it or you don't
I don't like how you cant park overnight at perisher but you can at Thredbo
This determines my mode of transport & where I go for that season coming from QLD
but I put concrete in my tea & deal with it
wink.gif
 
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teckel

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ODNT said:
I feel they think they made a decision based on there best interests
I've never said who was right or wrong
I just keep to the facts
you either accept the new terms or you walk
Except their decision may not be legal. They can ban classes of vehicles but not vehicles based on what they carry in the boot (provided there are snow chains in the boot) - that's my understanding.
 
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main street

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Hothski said:
2. GAR is not a simple Bottom to Top road. It travels for many kms along the top of a very exposed ridge. Similar roads that exist in other parts of the world are closed during winter. Conditions can and do change rapidly. 1m + snow drifts can and often form very quickly.

.................

Ummmm,.... Not in this country they aren't.




Hothski said:
hipo said:
unsupported decision that defies the experience in all other jurisdictions.

How many other jurisdictions (interesting word to use in this instance, but anyway) have the same characteristics as the GAR leading up to Hotham?

It is a unique set of circumstances that have led to this decision.

1. Snow is actually pretty rare in Australia - Without going into more detail, this means that your typical user of the GAR has very little experience driving in snowy conditions and likely hasn't specifically prepared themselves or their car. Any parallels drawn to overseas conditions/drivers/equipment used must take this into consideration.

2. GAR is not a simple Bottom to Top road. It travels for many kms along the top of a very exposed ridge. Similar roads that exist in other parts of the world are closed during winter. Conditions can and do change rapidly. 1m + snow drifts can and often form very quickly.

3. The road covers a large distance - most alpine roads in Australia (Those leading to Ski Resorts) are
a: much shorter, therefore less time driving in snow affected area
b: much lower elevation - again less time driving in snow affected area
The GAR involves a long drive above the snowline - unique in Australia - See Flatlander's post. Long section of road = difficult to manage

There WAS consultation about this decision - with the people that actually work on managing the road and have MUCH more experience than others.

Name just one other place in the world where these set of circumstances occur.

The closest I can think of are the NZ mountains. Their solution - just shut the road for a couple of days until it can be cleared.

.................



Ummmm,..... how about the 10's of thousands of kilometers of roads in Canada ?

Locally to me, the Coquihalla Highway & 97c (which I travel, year round, on a regular basis) have summits of well over 1,200 meters & at times you are travelling for more than 100 klm at alpine levels.

For 7 months of the year, those roads are covered in snow. Snowdrifts of well over 3 meters are not uncommon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Columbia_Highway_5
 
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main street

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Hothski said:
teckel said:
Ben Lomond:

4143294.jpg

Buller road has switchbacks similar to this - cannot be compared to the Hotham Road. I have no experience with Ben Lomond. What altitude? How often is the road snow covered? Traffic? No disrespect to those who ski Ben Lomond, but I can't see the numbers using the road being anywhere near the Hotham usage.

Again, I stand by my point that the Hotham GAR is a UNIQUE road.

rofl.gif
rofl.gif
rofl.gif


Not even close.
 
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FlatLander

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teckel said:
FlatLander said:
apparently spider chains are also not permitted at Baw Baw

another linky
Not so. From the Baw Baw website:
Chains

All vehicles are required by law to carry chains during the declared snow season when entering Mt Baw Baw Alpine Resort (or where signage indicates), and must fit them when advised.

NO CHAINS, NO ENTRY!
◾Chains must be carried during the declared snow season regardless of snow conditions (June- September)
◾Diamond pattern chains are recommended due to the steep gradient of the access road
◾Ladder chains are prohibited at Mt Baw Baw
◾You will be denied access to the Resort if you do not have wheel chains so be sure to plan where you are going to hire chains if you do not own any. During the snow season, Baw Baw Sports & Outdoors have a chain hire and fitting service at the Mt Baw Baw Resort entry. Bookings are essential to ensure they have the correct size available for you. Contact Adam at Baw Baw Sports & Outdoors, Ph 1800 106 078
◾Upon entry to the Resort, you will be directed by Mountain Staff where and when to fit your chains. Depending on the snowfall this generally takes place once you have passed the Gate Entry. It is your responsibility to know how to fit wheel chains and ensure they are the correct size. If in doubt please ask your chain retailer for instructions.
http://mountbawbaw.com.au/plan-your-trip/chains/

Ski hire websites are not always accurate. There is one in this area that makes several false claims (eg: that they're the cheapest when they're not, and that health regs do not permit the hiring of gloves - again - utter b.s.).

yeah sorry about that one I was probably being a bit mischievous
 
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FlatLander

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hipo said:
There is NO discussion on whether I or anybody else uses the bus or drives.

All Flatlander has done is provide NO facts just some circular emotional defence, that even you Hothski couldn't be bothered to articulate, of a unsupported decision that defies the experience in all other jurisdictions.

This discussion is about why spider chains have been banned by MTRMB when NOBODY here can provide any supporting FACTS and the MHRMB has not provided any supporting FACTS specific to spider chains in their determination.

Hipo that is not "circular emotional evidence", that is the way it goes on the GAR in difficult conditions, quite a few times a season (although probably not this season). There will be quite a few people on this forum that can confirm this as they may have been at the receiving end of these problems.

That post was more about the problems on the GAR, and not about a particular chain style. As I have said, they are probably the reasons behind such a decision and I dont have a problem with it. Again, if I was traveling to Hotham on one of those big snow days, strong winds (southerly even worse), poor visibility - I would not want my family in the car with a set of spider style chains on it. But that might be just me.
 
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FlatLander

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dossa5 said:
Yardsale said:
I know that Guru, Rover and Dossa5 (and a few others who I don't know) who would drive that side regularly. As of about 5 years ago, I have swapped to the other side. On that side the snow socks and spider chains would probably be ok - if you have an epic day skiing, you get an epic drive home (ie: up to 40klm with chains on).

As a constant user of the GAR it makes it difficult at times to consider it a dangerous road because as with most things done on a regular basis, it just becomes easy. That is not too say I haven't seen many accidents, you just become aware and automated to the driving conditions. I have helped many freaked out peeps along the way, most occuring problem would be driving ability to the conditions. I have even swapped drivers if I have someone else in my car and politely driven other peeps cars up for them if time is on my side. (Just thought of a business venture)
laugh.gif
.

With respect to you Astro I understand where you're coming from with the rmb decision- (it would could have been handled better as far as public relations go) but you dont seem to be directly effected.

I'm more concerned about the trees lower down than any of the exposed areas up top.

And snowtyres answer Tecks question.

100% with you on this Dossa. Over the years have helped many freaked out GAR travelers. Driven them up/down, followed them, led them in a convoy, fitted chains, helped them untangle and refit their chains, calmed them down, wiped their tears, etc etc.

And again yes I am always a lot more relaxed when out of the tall timber and into the snow gums!
 
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FlatLander

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Azz said:
AstroSki66 said:
As many have pointed out, we are not knowingly directly engaging anyone. It's just a discussion.

Best statement in this thread (and its predecessor) so far.

here here Azz, exactly. Its good fun though
wink.gif


might see you next weekend
 
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FlatLander

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oh oh...all vehicles (incl 4wd/awd) now fitting chains on Harrietville approach to Hotham.
shocked.gif
and they have only had about 15cm. This will be to slow the Sat morning traffic down and try and prevent mishaps!!
 
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Hothski

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Main Street. Thanks for taking notice of my first point. Conveniently ignored. Very hard to compare the roads of Canada with Austalian conditions. Yes they do receive more snow, yes they are crazier and wilder. But the fact is that drivers are more likely to be used to driving in those conditions and prepared for those conditions. Snow tyres maybe? Compulsory, are they not, in many parts of Canada? Certainly a waste of money in Aust for the vast majority.

Anyway, I give up. It's clear there are two sides to this issue and people are not going to change their view.

If you're not happy, ski at Falls and watch the RMB change their mind when numbers drop. If the numbers stay up, then it proves it wasn't an issue.

Have fun
 

main street

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Hothski said:
Main Street. Thanks for taking notice of my first point. Conveniently ignored. Very hard to compare the roads of Canada with Austalian conditions. Yes they do receive more snow, yes they are crazier and wilder. But the fact is that drivers are more likely to be used to driving in those conditions and prepared for those conditions. Snow tyres maybe? Compulsory, are they not, in many parts of Canada? Certainly a waste of money in Aust for the vast majority.

Anyway, I give up. It's clear there are two sides to this issue and people are not going to change their view.

If you're not happy, ski at Falls and watch the RMB change their mind when numbers drop. If the numbers stay up, then it proves it wasn't an issue.

Have fun

I did take note of your first point.

Your first point doesn't mean squat when you make other statements that negate it further into your post.

Like this:

Hothski said:
Similar roads that exist in other parts of the world are closed during winter

Clearly you have no clue, but were happy to try & bolster your own "perceived cred" by dribbling it out anyway.

& the later in the post,.... this:


Hothski said:
Name just one other place in the world where these set of circumstances occur.

Which I duly blew clean out of the water.


Hothski said:
Very hard to compare the roads of Canada with Austalian conditions.

You asked for someone to name just one other place in the world,...... I gave you an entire country, & now you say that's not fair ??


shoot-yourself-in-the-foot.jpg




rofl.gif
rofl.gif
 
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DbSki

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If the numbers stay up, then it proves it wasn't an issue.

And if not then the resort and all other stake holders loose revenue.
And those that stay will suffer with it and in turn make the resort suffer.
One thing is for sure if you piss off your customers before they have arrived you can almost bet they will complain about anything they can that would not otherwise complain about if they were happy campers on arrival.

If they are still stuck on the old days and have the attidue resorts used to which is "the punters will crawl over broken glass to come here every year" they are going to loose that fight, specially with the high Aus dollar.

And who are they targeting, cashed up punters with prestige cars that are the most likely ones to spend up at resorts.
Looks to me like they are about to shoot a hole in one or more of their own feet.

And all that risk and potential dire outcomes to save a few incidents of chains falling off.

Best of luck with that RMB.
 
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main street

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doh.gif


I live in a ski resort,.... so they are mandatory for me,.... October through April.

& I made reference to the requirements for snow tires in Canada earlier in the thread.
 
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Hothski

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main street said:
I did take note of your first point.

Your first point doesn't mean squat when you make other statements that negate it further into your post.


Hothski said:
Name just one other place in the world where these set of circumstances occur.

Which I duly blew clean out of the water.


Hothski said:
Very hard to compare the roads of Canada with Austalian conditions.

You asked for someone to name just one other place in the world,...... I gave you an entire country, & now you say that's not fair ??

Canada - lots of snow. People prepared/used to conditions

Aust - not much snow (tiny area of the county gets some for 3 months a year) as per the FIRST point I made

So while Canadian roads do exist that receive more snow, are higher and probably take more skill to drive on, I stand by the GAR being a unique road due to the circumstances presented by Australian conditions - including the human factor.
Pretty sure this is all about getting people on the mountain safely and efficiently.

Nice pic though
 
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main street

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Hothski said:
main street said:
I did take note of your first point.

Your first point doesn't mean squat when you make other statements that negate it further into your post.


Hothski said:
Name just one other place in the world where these set of circumstances occur.

Which I duly blew clean out of the water.


Hothski said:
Very hard to compare the roads of Canada with Austalian conditions.

You asked for someone to name just one other place in the world,...... I gave you an entire country, & now you say that's not fair ??

Canada - lots of snow. People prepared/used to conditions

Aust - not much snow (tiny area of the county gets some for 3 months a year) as per the FIRST point I made

So while Canadian roads do exist that receive more snow, are higher and probably take more skill to drive on, I stand by the GAR being a unique road due to the circumstances presented by Australian conditions - including the human factor.
Pretty sure this is all about getting people on the mountain safely and efficiently.

Nice pic though

rofl.gif


Nice try.

Good of you to take out your own faux pas eh ?

The comment you now dispute above was made AFTER your points #2 & #3 ..... which clearly set the guidelines for the "name another place,... yada, yada, yada..... "


Perhaps people should just ride the roflcopter up to the snow & negate the need for chains all together,.... Been plenty of lolz in here so far.
 
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Charlie

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AstroSki66 said:
If I ever took my Porsche back to the snow. I would purchase a set of these Spider Spikes.

spikes-spider-alpine-pro.png


After much reasearch and viewing their fitting. (Held on with all 4 wheel nuts) I cannot see how they could possibly fall off, if driven at rated speeds. And there are no reports of them doing so. Snapping a chain can happen no matter what chains you use. Though proper maintenance can reduce incidence.

I admit I've never seen a set of spider chains in the flesh, but I don't see how the chains around the circumference can be tightened.
They appear to have a fixed circumference, which means if they are a very snug fit, they would be difficult to slide on, and if they go on easily, the chain in between the radial brackets would tend to flop about
Also if there is no separation of the chain, how is the bottom section installed?
Do you have to jack the car up?
If the chain is loose and floppy, does this mean that the chains are only held on by the 4 radial brackets?

If anyone can shed light on these questions, I will be happy to be proven wrong!
 
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Astro66

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If you have 3 mins. Video shows how to fit spider spikes. What it doesn't show, is the fitting of the adaptor to the wheel hub. Something you can do at home.

Oh BTW. I would buy the all steel ones like in my photo.

 
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Astro66

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Here's how you fit the wheel hub assembly.

So you can understand my skepticism on how they could fall off.

 
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Astro66

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The only issue I can see is if you were cornering violently. The chain on one side of the car would come out from under the tyre.

But if driven to the conditions and at rated speeds. I don't understand the angst.
 

Astro66

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For NSW, I believe this version would be sufficient. And I believe it is this type that led to the Hotham RMB making their decision. This is the only type that could be described as similar to ladder, as there would be times when no part of the chain was in contact with the road.

Having used ladder in NSW for 15 years. I don't see them as a problem for NSW. But would not protest their banning.

 
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Spirax

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Wow a lot of emotions about such an insignificant decision.

Astro how can you be sure that the RMB have not followed due process? Maybe they have done the reports and the investigations. Just because they are not on the internet, or you can not find them on the internet (or no one from this forum can find them) does not mean they do not exist. I personally have no idea whenther they do exist. So just assume that the RMB wasted a bunch of money that we pay them and completed a study. It could be sitting in a filing cabinenet at 1700m. But that just couldn't be possible because every bit of information collected or every study ever completed must be on the internet or it doesn't exist.

I personally have no problems with the RMB taking a shortcut on this matter. With the financial problems that the RMB have and the huge increase on resort entry this year than I think it is more responsible of them to talk with the police and vic roads about the matter than forking out a bunch of money they don't have for a study that may or may not be needed.

Just imagine the field days that the lawyers could have if it were found out that the RMB knew that spider chains were unsafe and that they failed to act. if someone died as a resulty of spider chains (long shot I know but just humour me) and a lawsuit was bought against vic roads or RMB for failing to ban spider chains than some on here may be singing a different tune.

Yes in a perfect world due process should be followed. However the world we live in is far from perfect. Astro I assume that you being so passionaite about this that you have spoken witht he RMB (either phone or email) and I would love to know what their repsonse was? You are obviously a passionaite person Astro and I can only think that all the energy you put into this thread could have been better spent on a real issue facing wherever you call home. It just amazes me that with everything we have go wrong in the world that so many people can devote so much of their time and energy to something which has no impact on them whatsoever, apart from sticking up for the poor underdog who has spider chains.

Perhaps Astro if you kept a level head and took your arguments to the RMB than you may be able to convince them otherwise. Although I havea feeling you are much more of an armchair critic. From your posts it is obviously something you feel very passionaite about, perhaps something you see yourself as a vigiliante on behalf of the people. If this is the case then I do feel very sorry for you. I just struggle to see how someone can get so worked up over a mountain they have visited very few times and I would dare say are unlikely to return too. If you really had thi high and mighty morals you claim and wanted to make a difference take your passion and your fight and apply it to a cause that has a purpose.
 

Astro66

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Spirax said:
Wow a lot of emotions about such an insignificant decision.
Wow, bro. I can't believe how self absorbed that comment is.

Many people have invested in vehicles and chains, that are now excluded from Hotham, with no, vehicle manufacturers, specified way of complying with this regulation. I do not deem that insignificant.

And this issue is only going to get worse as more modern cars are sold with tighter tolerances on wheel clearances. And guess what ? There is a Car Manufacturer specified solution that has been adopted world wide. Spider Chains !!
Spirax said:
Just imagine the field days that the lawyers could have if it were found out that the RMB knew that spider chains were unsafe and that they failed to act. if someone died as a resulty of spider chains (long shot I know but just humour me) and a lawsuit was bought against vic roads or RMB for failing to ban spider chains than some on here may be singing a different tune.
Used world wide for years. No lawsuits or issues. Moving on.
Spirax said:
Perhaps Astro if you kept a level head and took your arguments to the RMB than you may be able to convince them otherwise. Although I havea feeling you are much more of an armchair critic. From your posts it is obviously something you feel very passionaite about, perhaps something you see yourself as a vigiliante on behalf of the people. If this is the case then I do feel very sorry for you. I just struggle to see how someone can get so worked up over a mountain they have visited very few times and I would dare say are unlikely to return too. If you really had thi high and mighty morals you claim and wanted to make a difference take your passion and your fight and apply it to a cause that has a purpose.
Listen bro. As I have said before. You fight your battles your way. I'll do what I do. Your input is appreciated.

I am an independent source, with nothing to gain from, these rulings. And no sense of loyalty to the governing body. So I believe my input is possibly the least tainted of any in this thread.

I'm engaging in a debate, and my motives are mine. (You wouldn't want in my head anyway
wink.gif
)

Sorry I'm not addressing everything you posted. But much has been covered previously
 
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