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DPS Phantom

Discussion in 'Equipment' started by Whatever really, Nov 2, 2017.

  1. Annabuzzy

    Annabuzzy Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Which stores will have it?
     
  2. Kopite

    Kopite One of Us

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    Snowbound are getting one
     
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  3. Annabuzzy

    Annabuzzy Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    That's Chatswood Sydney isn't it?
     
  4. Kopite

    Kopite One of Us

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    Yes that’s the one.
     
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  5. Annabuzzy

    Annabuzzy Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Thanks
     
  6. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

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    Rhythm and Bumps as well.
     
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  7. D-eye

    D-eye Photographer and skier Moderator

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    Anyone in Canberra, Cooma or Jindabyne ?
     
  8. azzski

    azzski Should know better Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Pretty sure Rhythm are in Cooma ;p
     
  9. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

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    Rhythm Cooma.
     
  10. Annabuzzy

    Annabuzzy Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Rhythm Cooma would be ideal. How long does the process take again? I guess I could book ahead. Otherwise Snowbound look the goods. And how much will I be paying to buy the product and have the retailer apply it for me (approx)?
     
  11. Kopite

    Kopite One of Us

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    Snowbound didn't have have prices when I spoke to them, but they said to me that it would be basically the USD price converted. Didn't talk about application costs though.
     
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  12. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

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    Yeah not sure on application costs that's up to each store as per tuning costs etc.

    Purchase price is as per Kopite's statement same as $US converted, so approx AUD$128 plus GST no doubt.

    With the UV box we've got it down to about 20 minutes each prep. We can get it less but we've got to take soak time into account. The prep needs to soak into the base like water to a sponge. So if we cut it too short the prep doesn't get enough time to soak through the whole base.
     
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  13. D-eye

    D-eye Photographer and skier Moderator

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    :p could have been one elsewhere

    @DPS Driver hit up Straightline in CBR, maybe they would be interested. There is also Belconnen Ski 'n' Board
     
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  14. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

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    Cheers D-eye, at this stage only releasing to my distributors. We're not a brand that will be in every ski shop, so I support my stores by providing some element of geographical exclusivity. The Canberra market is close to Cooma and would impact DPS sales into my distributor Rhythm, so it's best to support them.

    I realise the aim of most businesses is to get your gear into every store and build sales. However, my belief is it's best to get your gear into select stores and work to support them in the sales effort to make sure they sell everything they've purchased from you. If they've got heaps of your stock left over then not good for either of us.
     
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  15. MarzNC

    MarzNC One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Do you mean 20 min in the UV box for Part A and then another 20 min in the UV box for Part B? That certainly beats waiting for a day when 3 hours in the sun is going to be available.

    How much "soak" time? I guess with a 3-hour curing period, the soak time was built in since there was nothing about waiting before setting the skis in the sun and wandering off to do something else.
     
  16. MarzNC

    MarzNC One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Backcountry Canada included a video from SIA in Feb 2018 that's an introduction to DPS Phantom on the webpage that's a review of the DPS Alchemist Wailer 112. Interesting that in the video there is a comment of needing wax for cold snow conditions, but there is an overlay text correction noting that waxing is not required. Unless someone is racing, not really much reason to wax for cold snow.

    http://backcountryskiingcanada.com/DPS_Alchemist_Wailer_112RP2_Skis

     
    #116 MarzNC, Apr 17, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2018
  17. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

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    20 minutes part A plus 20 minutes part B. We can cure it quicker but at this stage the 20 minutes allows for soak time.
     
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  18. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

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    Yeah I saw that. As they said Phantom works best in our warmer conditions but still works fine in cold conditions. As you suggest the take away is that you can still wax over Phantom. This is why some racers are starting to use it because it allows you to maintain glide after your wax has worn off.
     
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  19. D-eye

    D-eye Photographer and skier Moderator

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    Okay, I'll try Rhythm once my new skis arrive.
     
  20. Emad

    Emad First Runs

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    Can you leave either application A or B for a day or more in case not enough sunlight when applied? Any drawbacks to doing this?
     
  21. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

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    Yes you can. Just increases soak time.

    Best to apply when a sunny day though. The critical component is the sunlight and the mix of UVA, UVB & UVC. So preferably go for the sunny day.
     
  22. D-eye

    D-eye Photographer and skier Moderator

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    I sent a query to Rhythm, their response was that they don't have it yet, don't know how much it will cost and that they won't be getting the UV box.
     
  23. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

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    Change in supply. Rhythm will be getting it but didn't get their order in time. Stock sold out in US, so the only place to get it for the first half of this season is Snowbound, in Chatswood who ordered theirs in way way early so stock was set aside. New stock due in to US in July. UV boxes won't be ready until July either, so questionable re this season due to shipping costs.

    I was just updated on this from the US this week. Sorry for any inconvenience.
     
  24. Kopite

    Kopite One of Us

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    Picked up a couple of packs from Snowbound today. Now I’ve got to find some decent weather to apply it. Typically now I need the sun it’s buggered off!
     

    Attached Files:

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  25. Kopite

    Kopite One of Us

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    Did my first application of Part A this morning. One ski looks as expected having been through the videos etc. The other ski has me worried - the liquid was a milky looking substance totally different from the first ski and was a lot thicker consistency. Doesn’t look anytime any of the videos.... can’t find anything online about this and followed instructions to the letter....


    Anybody got any thoughts on this?
     
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  26. Kopite

    Kopite One of Us

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    Thanks to @DPS Driver and the guys over at DPS in the States for putting my mind at ease. Quite normal and no issues to be concerned about. Must say the response all round from DPS was superb.

    Just done the second coat, and leaving leaving to cure like a nice bacon joint in the North Curly sun for the day!
     
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  27. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    I've just opened and read this thread for the first time (I thought it was about a ski model, so hadn't bothered previously). Initially I was interested in it especially for my 300 hire skis. But then I saw some twisting of the truth in the marketing hype, which makes me suspicious.

    Firstly. Ski bases DO absorb wax. Sintered bases especially, and more so than the cheaper extruded bases. I see this time and time again in the hundreds of skis I wax every winter. Do your homework on this rather than believing hype. P-tex repairs do not absorb wax well, and should therefore be avoided if at all possible.

    Secondly. It's the fluorinated waxes that are harmful to the environment, not all waxes, as is implied by the hype.

    Possibly other things that I haven't yet noticed. I won't be using it unless and until it proves itself over time. Unless and until it's used by top competitive skiers. Unless and until it's replicated by existing wax manufacturers.

    At this stage, it may be OK on cheaper gear with users who can't be bothered with waxing. For people who wax their better quality gear, I'd be giving it a wide berth at present.
     
  28. MarzNC

    MarzNC One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    What research did you do besides reading the "marketing hype"? When I started checking out the idea, I looked up and read the definition of "hydrophobic" and the creation and use of hydrophobic cement, which has been used commercially since 2000. I listened the the podcast interview with the professor at the Univ. of Utah who was the leading scientist for the development process paid for by DPS. They spent about a year coming up with the final formula that is being sold. His speciality is material science and engineering.

    http://blistergearreview.com/podcasts/dps-phantom-the-end-of-ski-wax-ep-59

    I'm not a scientist, but my husband is a Ph.D. chemist and material scientist (retired) and my father was a professor of chemistry. I'm a retired Ph.D. biostatistician. I have no connection to DPS other than being a satisfied customer. I often rent DPS powder skis when I get lucky and catch a powder storm at Alta. The DPS Nina 99 is my go to ski for private lessons off-piste during mid-season trips to Alta.

    Bottom line is that I got DPS Phantom from the Kickstarter campaign during the Fall of 2017. As I've noted in this thread, I did the application process in Jan 2018. I treated the bases of Head Absolut Joy skis that I mainly use at my home hill and in the American northeast, mostly on manmade snow. The AJs were a coupIe years old, bought new. I would typically wax every 3-4 ski days, either at home or pay to have it done at a ski shop on mountain. I'm an older advanced recreational skier and never been interested in racing.

    By the time I'd skied on the AJs for a couple days, it was obvious the glide was good. After about 10 days, it was clear the glide was staying consistent. But the real test came at the end of the season. I did a ski safari to Oregon and California with my main ski buddy. In early May, we skied 7 days at Bachelor, Mt. Hood Meadows, Squaw, and Mammoth. There was sticky snow towards the end of each of those days as it warmed up. The glide on the AJs was noticeably better and more consistent than on my old Black Pearls (2012 version) with traditional wax. On days I used the BPs, I was adding a paste wax to the BPs once a day, either the night before or mid-morning. That would help the BPs, but the AJs were still more reliable when it came to handling sticky snow. Even though the BPs are 88 underfoot and the more appropriate skis for the conditions, after testing out both I was more comfortable sticking with the AJs. We were skiiing off-piste quite a bit once the snow softened.

    The other hydrophobic product for ski and snowboard bases has evolved into Gigaglide, based in Europe. The original name was Juice. That product was the inspiration for DPS. But a completely different formula and application process. My understanding is that the "permanent" version of Gigaglide is being sold to ski shops in Europe for treatment of rental fleets. One reason it's not being sold retail is that the shelf-life of the spray is six months. The little spray bottle now called Instant Glide is the same stuff that was being sold by the UK inventor several years ago under the name Pocket Juice. Supposed to last 5-10 ski days, based on what I remember when I researched the topic last fall.

    http://gigaglide.com

    Both Phantom and Gigaglide are not waxes. The treatment causes a chemical reaction that changes the composition the base of skis or snowboards. Phantom and Permanent Glide are designed to treat the base for the lifetime of the base. Skis that are treated can be waxed in addition, although it's not expected that recreational skiers will bother.

    Based on my experience with my AJs, I'll be treating more of the skis around my house for next season. YMMV.
     
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  29. MarzNC

    MarzNC One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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  30. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    I'm not questioning your experience of the product. If it works for you - that's good.
    Obviously I know about hydrophobic bases - part of waxing 101.
    Why are DPS not being straight-forward then, when they talk about ski bases not absorbing wax or all waxes being harmful to the environment? That is hype.
     
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  31. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    From those articles, the hydrocarbons are not harmful to the environment
    And not so much even for the fluoro waxes - 10,000 skiers over 17 miles by 35 feet wide produced a total of 1 ounce of fluoro additive. Not very much for 10,000 skiers!
     
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  32. MarzNC

    MarzNC One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Not disagreeing that there is marketing hype in some of the material from DPS and Gigaglide. I grew up in New York City, so naturally cynical about any marketing material.

    The tag line the Austrian behind Gigaglide came up with is "Don't call it Wax." He was the marketing guru for the Pocket Juice Kickstarter around Jan 2018. As I remember only about 50 people participated. Compared to 2000 for DPS Phantom because DPS had much more marketing experience than the UK engineer and ski instructor who invented spray-on Juice product (stupid name). The videos the Austrian made are all hype. But if it doesn't work during the upcoming season for the ski shops in Europe who are buying Permanent Gigaglide, that's going to be obvious pretty quickly.

    From the Gigaglide website:

    [​IMG]
    • PERMANENT GLIDE skis and snowboards only need one treatment and NEVER need WAX anymore.
    • PERMANENT GLIDE is a one-time only base impregnation for rental ski or snowboard
    • PERMANENT GLIDE is exclusively for ski rental shops or professional service centres.
    • PERMANENT GLIDE retains the ski and snowboard gliding experience for the entire lifetime.
    • PERMANENT GLIDE makes the base more scratch resistant.
    • PERMANENT GLIDE can save you up to 90% on your wax maintenance cost.
    Not linked on the website but was made a few months ago
     
  33. MarzNC

    MarzNC One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    I'm strictly a resort skier, meaning not ever going to do the work going uphill required for backcountry skiing. A 10-15 minute hike to reach terrain that's covered by ski patrol is about my limit. Don't like cross-country skiing either. ;)

    For those who like dealing with skiing, the updated reviews from April 2018 on Blistergear are worth reading.

    http://blistergearreview.com/gear-r...ws/dps-phantom-permanent-base-glide-treatment
     
  34. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

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    Wax does not penetrate the base. I too have waxed thousands of skis.

    The simple fact is that the wax molecule is too big to penetrate the base structure. Scientific fact, not hype. Like trying to fit a watermellon into a vegemite jar. Let me clarify that, it will partially penetrate the very top layer of the base structure which allows it to hold the surface. This is due to the structural composition of the base. Imagine a red back spiders web. This is why it wears off because it can't penetrate the base. A higher graphite content base will absorb more than a low or nil graphite base, this is not due to graphite being porous, it's simply how it sits in the polyethylene structure. I also used to work for a company that extruded polyethylene sheets, so have experience in that side of the equation.

    Phantom penetrates the whole base top to bottom. This is why it works even after a base grind.

    We are working on it being more attractive to rental fleets but the process is a little arduous for some to endure. The payback is worth it though.
     
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  35. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Scientific fact - wax does penetrate sintered ski bases. If you can't see this for yourself, I have to query the numbers of sintered (as opposed to extruded) skis you have waxed.

    Anyone considering buying this stuff should read https://www.newschoolers.com/forum/thread/855687/Ski-wax-revolution-?page=1
    People discussing the pros and cons. Not sponsored by a ski company or a wax company, but contributed to by people some of whom seem to be fairly knowledgeable. No spin.

    Edit: I'm wondering about your experience waxing hundreds of skis. Was it using one of those cheaper-end waxing machines that doing nothing more than wipe on a thin layer of wax? As in, something like this:
    Because I agree, that method does not allow the wax to penetrate the ski. And that's all that many shops do when they say they wax skis. When I talk about waxing skis, I'm talking about proper hand waxing - multi-applications which build up to the effect of hot-boxing. The wax definitely does penetrate the skis using that method. Ski life is prolonged and they are far more damage resistant.

    I'm sure Phantom is great for people who never wax, or only wax once a year. After all, any treatment is better than none. But I feel confident that regular hand waxing is still the better way to go. While I use a base cleaner on my rental skis, I certainly would not use it on high-end or racing skis. To clean those skis, repeated waxing is the only real method, as base cleaner does dry out the ski base.

    I hope that I'm proved wrong, but you must acknowledge that I have a valid reason for scepticism at this stage.
     
    #135 teckel, Jun 18, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2018
  36. MarzNC

    MarzNC One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    I noticed that the patent noted in the NewSchoolers thread is for Juice by JD Prince, which is a completely different formula than Phantom. Pocket Juice is a spray that does not require curing. Prince is the UK engineer and instructor in Austria who invented (and named) Juice. According to the Blister interview, DPS tried to work with him but he wasn't interested.

    At some point, I found the larger versions of the microscope pictures on the Juice Kickstarter page. The Univ. of Bath took the pictures that show penetration all the way through the base. Remembered the number of backers wrong, it was about 200 eventually.

    https://www.kickstarter.com/project...-infinity-the-best-ski-snowboard-wax-replacem
     
  37. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

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    I'm sorry but simple science dictates that wax cannot penetrate a base. I've waxed using hot boxes iron, you name it I've used it. We've had industry professionals use it who control massive rental fleets. One Australian retailer in particular who didn't want it to work, rang me back and had to admit that it worked and worked well. He skied on it this past northern season and couldn't fault it. We're not trying to do away with waxing, even though that's the marketing angle, we're offering an environmentally safe alternative, which can be waxed over if you wish. Some racers are looking at it as a base preparation that provides continued glide even after their wax has come off. Other who don't want to wax and are happy not to are catered for.

    It’s purely science. Wax is a long chain paraffin with a molecular weight and length that in no way enters the base. Wax is topical, and hard to argue otherwise. We developed a very very short chain molecule, or a monomer (single chain version of a polymer, paraffins, are not “poly” technically, but they qualify still as long chain monomers) that can penetrate INTO the polyethylene structure. With our proprietary method, we’re able to permanently polymerize our fluorocarbons to the polyethylene chains, forming a stable single bond throughout the thickness of the base. So the slippery stuff still exists even after grindings and grindings, as it is a permanent part of the new polyethylene structure.

    Have a look at this it may help: https://www.dpsskis.com/phantom
    Some more information here. https://www.dpsskis.com/pub/media/pdf/phantom/phantomProduct.pdf which may help.
     
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  38. rols

    rols Addicted

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    Flourinated hydrocarbons or just hydrocarbons?
     
  39. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

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    Fluorocarbons - See explanation from google dictionary.
    "a compound formed by replacing one or more of the hydrogen atoms in a hydrocarbon with fluorine atoms".
     
  40. rols

    rols Addicted

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    Wasn't needing a definition, just wondering about the validity of claiming "we're offering an environmentally safe alternative" while still using flourinated compounds. It could be argued these are mutually exclusive.
     
  41. MarzNC

    MarzNC One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    I'm not the chemist in the family, but my sense is that it's important to understand the concept of "bonding" in terms of what actually happens during the curing process when "using" Phantom or Juice/Gigaglide that changes the nature of the base material. Based on the pictures taken for a ski treated with Juice under magnification, goes a lot deeper than any wax application.

    A few questions to ask yourself: How much wax is left in the base after a stone grind? If I don't scrape well, what happens when skiing to the wax that was on the bases? Why is waxing useful after only one day of skiing on hard snow, meaning manmade or after a freeze/thaw cycle? Why does waxing not last very long during spring skiing but bases treated with Phantom stay the same after 5+ days of skiing?

     
  42. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

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    Yeah I get your point. I think the take away is the the flourinated compounds are permanently fixed to the structure of the base so no continual shedding every time you wax and leaching into the water table. It's how you look at it I suppose.
     
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  43. rols

    rols Addicted

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    I guess it should be better than using a fluorinated wax, just seems like a little bit of marketing stretch. Can you say if any non fluorinated hydrocarbons were considered or trialed for the active compound or is the fluorine critical for adequate glide and longevity?
    A quick bit of searching shows a number of companies active in developing solutions for wax free bases.
    Gigaglide, which seems like a similar approach to DPS
    Melt skis claim a wax free base (with what seems a different chemistry) as standard.

    I suspect in a few years, with a bit of competition, we should see similar options at more sensible prices.

    Alternatively, research by Kuzmin indicates that after <3km of skiing, an unwaxed ski glides better than a waxed one, so unless people are waxing very often (not likely for most), Phantom probably doesn't have to do much to better the glide of a waxed ski that has covered more than 3km.
     
  44. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Derek Prince (Juice Permanent and Looknowax) filed this patent: https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2016042323A1/en
    Now the chemical is poly[3-((2-aminoethyl)amino)propyl]methyl(dimethyl)siloxane I think. From another website:
    That certainly suggests that this sort of stuff (if it's any good) can be done at a more reasonable price in the future.
     
  45. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

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    I asked the boys in the US for more detail around this. See answer below.

    It can get a bit complicated, but here’s the difference in the BAD fluorocarbons, and the GOOD which is what we use. “Fluorocarbons” are a broad sweeping term. From one of our chemists:


    The quickest explanation is that we use saturated fluorocarbons, meaning that they are fluoroalkanes, which are stable and not toxic (see Wikipedia making that differentiation here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorocarbon#Environmental_and_health_concerns). Then, in curing, we take them down to an even lower energy state, making them completely inert. Look at Teflon for a comparison here. It contains fluorocarbons but in its solid, thin film state is extremely unreactive (which is what makes it so good at non stick).


    So when you compare that to topical paraffin based fluorocarbon waxes, they contain long chain fluorocarbons (the bad type) to achieve the glide properties, which have an extra carbon chain (a free radical) which reacts with water and bio-accumulates after it wears off of the ski, or the shop floor scrapings. We do NOT have that extra carbon chain in the slippery fluorocarbons that we use after we activate and polymerize to the polyethylene chain.


    You kind of need a chemistry degree here…. But just remember, waxes and clothing DWR’s etc, which have a bad rap, are long chain fluorocarbons which bio-accumulate. We use short-chain (which allows us to carry the slippery stuff throughout the polyethylene molecular lattice through the entire thickness of the base) fluorocarbons and permanently attach that chain to a free radical that we create in the PE and it forms a permanent and stable bond.


    I hope that makes a little more sense?
     
    MarzNC likes this.
  46. skifree

    skifree grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    What is a reasonable price?

    The DPS offering seems reasonable to me over the life of the skis.
     
    Chaeron likes this.
  47. MarzNC

    MarzNC One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    I know people who balk at the idea of spending US$100 to to treat a pair of skis because the way they think about waxing is based on doing it themselves. After the initial investment in a wax iron and related tools, they tend to use the annual cost of waxing supplies as a basis for cost comparison. Plus some people took the initial statement on the Kickstarter webpage literally and thought a stone grind was required every 4 years. Also in some cases that people who complain the price is too high tend to buy and sell skis more frequently than the average recreational skier. That means they may keep a pair of skis for only 2-3 seasons.

    To use Phantom to treat a few hundred rental pairs of rental skis would be a lot of money without a quantity discount.

    Would be interesting to know the cost per pair of skis or a snowboard for Permanent Glide, which is designed for fleets of rental gear. According to the website, 4-6ml is required for one ski and the container sold has 500ml. It's not sold to individuals. From the FAQ, the answer to the questions "Can I buy Permanent Glide as an end customer?" is "No we are sorry, Permanent Glide is something we are only selling to the industry, because fully permanent treatments need seriously good base preparation and we’ve found that the majority of users can’t do that properly." Remember, GigaGlide is based in Austria where they speak German.
     
  48. rols

    rols Addicted

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    Appreciate the detail, thanks.
    Are you getting any customer feedback about including the base treatment as a standard inclusion o DPS skis?
     
  49. rols

    rols Addicted

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    Give it a year or two for competitors to get established and the market will dictate what is reasonable but $100 sounds a bit steep. Melt are selling complete skis with a claimed no wax base for 270euro.
     
  50. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

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    A bit, not a lot though.

    The answer to that is quite logical. In manufacturing time is dollars and when you've got one of the more expensive skis on the market due to the carbon construction, it would be cost prohibitive to include it in the manufacturing process. It already takes three times longer to make a DPS Alchemist ski than it does a standard fibreglass ski. In saying that we may do special runs from time to time and add Phantom into the mix.