1. SPECIAL NOTE TO NEW REGISTRATIONS

    If you recently registered and have not received a confirmation email - please check your 'Spam or Junk' folders. Especially if your email is Hotmail. More help with confirmation issues

    NOTE: This notice may be closed.

    Dismiss Notice
  2. There's more to this forum than meets the eye!

    We have a vibrant community here conversing about all sorts of non-snow topics such as music, sport, politics and technology. Simply register to reveal all our Après topics or continue browsing and reading as a guest.

    NOTE: This notice may be closed.

    Dismiss Notice

DPS Phantom

Discussion in 'Equipment' started by Whatever really, Nov 2, 2017.

  1. skifree

    skifree grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 1998
    Messages:
    21,348
    Likes Received:
    11,508
    Location:
    Middle Oz
    $100.00 sounds dirt cheap to me for a life of ski treatment. Given I do a fair bit of waxing myself and I know how much that costs when i go to buy more wax. And at least once maybe twice a season I have the bases, edges and wax done by Adi and I know how much that costs.
     
    Chaeron and DPS Driver like this.
  2. KL.

    KL. One of Us

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2005
    Messages:
    1,519
    Likes Received:
    159
    how much does Adi cost for a wax, wax/tune?
     
  3. skifree

    skifree grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 1998
    Messages:
    21,348
    Likes Received:
    11,508
    Location:
    Middle Oz
    Ring Adi and ask
    (02) 6457 5027
     
  4. KL.

    KL. One of Us

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2005
    Messages:
    1,519
    Likes Received:
    159
    NZD60 at Racers Edge Wanaka, Full Tune/wax
    Standard Tune is NZD45
    Edge Debur & Wax NZD30
     
  5. rols

    rols Addicted

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2006
    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    103
    Location:
    tas
    Does applying phantom effect the traditional understanding of what type of base surface structures provide the best glide?
     
  6. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2014
    Messages:
    3,558
    Likes Received:
    3,459
    No, you can still put whatever structure you want into the base. Your glide will be there and Phantom will only enhance whatever structure you choose.
     
    Snowbounder likes this.
  7. rols

    rols Addicted

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2006
    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    103
    Location:
    tas
    After just looking at the price of fluorocarbon race waxes, phantom certainly looks like a bargain for some long lasting fluorocarbons. I think my large, seemingly everlasting block of generic glide wax might have put me out of touch with wax prices.
     
    DPS Driver and skifree like this.
  8. Kopite

    Kopite One of Us

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2017
    Messages:
    484
    Likes Received:
    592
    Location:
    North Curly
    Well after a couple of hours of runs I can report so far it’s bang on. As suggested it took a run or two before it kicked in but so far so good here.
     
    MarzNC and DPS Driver like this.
  9. kaegee

    kaegee One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2014
    Messages:
    2,583
    Likes Received:
    3,190
    Location:
    Freshwater
    @DPS Driver What date are you at the Thredbo this year . Have forgotten. Cheers
    For demo l mean .
     
  10. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2014
    Messages:
    3,558
    Likes Received:
    3,459
    Actually there next week with the family and my demo fleet and then the weekend of the 22nd of July for the Ski Mag Demo weekend.
     
    kaegee likes this.
  11. kaegee

    kaegee One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2014
    Messages:
    2,583
    Likes Received:
    3,190
    Location:
    Freshwater
    Ah . May be driving back on the Sun morn of the 22 nd . Might sneak in a few morning runs to test if your not doing the Sat
     
  12. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2014
    Messages:
    3,558
    Likes Received:
    3,459
    We'll be there both days weather and Saturday night pending ha ha.

    At DPS we work like I used to in the surf business, if there's snow I'm going skiing.
     
    kaegee likes this.
  13. Dziggy

    Dziggy Hard Yards

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2012
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Howdy. As an infrequent (5-8 days a year, occasional OS) casual skier who's looking to do general maintenance on my own skis this is promising. I've read (though am not entirely convinced it applies to my less than race-ski standards) that skis need a summer wax to stop bases from drying out- is this still the case with Phantom? Obviously time will tell for a definitive answer, but in its absence are there any reasons for or against summer waxing after a Phantom application (other than 'just in case') if you're not too finicky about perfect equipment? Cheers, Michael D
     
  14. Red_switch

    Red_switch Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: 30 Day

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    23,572
    Likes Received:
    8,715
    Location:
    Dunedin, NZ
    Have you actually come across any research on this?

    I avoid using fluoro waxes, on touring gear in particular, but I'm yet to see any published scientific study on the impact of ski waxes on water quality (and I've searched!). There is a lot on the impacts on humans (ski technicians), but they are working in a high exposure environment.
     
  15. Red_switch

    Red_switch Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: 30 Day

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    23,572
    Likes Received:
    8,715
    Location:
    Dunedin, NZ
    There's actually a pretty big body of scientific literature dealing with ski wax, which certainly indicates that wax does indeed penetrate the base of skis (not the whole thickness of the base).

    What you're doing is cool, for sure, but you're not the first outfit to employ a bunch of scientists and engineers to improve the gliding performance of skis. In Europe, this is a pretty big ongoing and active area of research. Some countries put a decent amount of government funding into this (thanks, Olympics).
     
    rols, Telemark Phat and skifree like this.
  16. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2014
    Messages:
    3,558
    Likes Received:
    3,459
    Bases will not dry out with Phantom applied.
     
    Dziggy likes this.
  17. Red_switch

    Red_switch Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: 30 Day

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    23,572
    Likes Received:
    8,715
    Location:
    Dunedin, NZ
    IME it takes a fair bit of effort to get decent sintered bases to dry out. Cheap extruded bases are another story.
     
    teckel likes this.
  18. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2014
    Messages:
    3,558
    Likes Received:
    3,459
    Yes there is. Start here https://www.dpsskis.com/phantom
     
  19. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2014
    Messages:
    3,558
    Likes Received:
    3,459
    It will penetrate the very top layer. Not so much penetrate as fill the valleys.
    I'd love to see the big body of scientific evidence and see who financed the study.

    We've learnt so much through this process. I too thought wax penetrated the base but I've learnt otherwise and unfortunately it doesn't because it's scientifically impossible.

    People can attack the science or the reason behind developing the product, that's fine, I get it. I've worked for multinationals and I've seen the greed, the greenwashing and destruction they leave behind. I know the intention to develop this technology was genuine and I now know, a truck load more about the science of wax as a result. The science proves that this is a good move on all fronts.
     
    Marty_McSly likes this.
  20. Red_switch

    Red_switch Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: 30 Day

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    23,572
    Likes Received:
    8,715
    Location:
    Dunedin, NZ
    teckel likes this.
  21. Red_switch

    Red_switch Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: 30 Day

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    23,572
    Likes Received:
    8,715
    Location:
    Dunedin, NZ
    I hope someone took a look at Leonid Kuzmin's thesis.

    So I've been doing a bit of reading and reviewing my own knowledge of the physics of deformation of ice and snow, and the implications of that for skis/snowboards. Having a background in glaciology helps ;)

    Key points:
    1. The purpose of wax that penetrates the base is to modify base hardness relative to the snow surface. Importantly for ski-tuning, this is dependent on snow temperature. The idea being that a harder base is better for cold snow and a softer base better for warmer/wetter snow - there is a bit of debate around the specifics of this, but this is really at the millisecond level in elite xc ski racing (a lot of the research is Scandinavian). The temperature sensitivity is actually one of the reasons why you wouldn't want this treatment to penetrate the full thickness of the base, that will limit your ability to modify base characteristics for varying snow temp/hardness.

    2. Generally you do want a layer of wax on the surface of the skis. This is to reduce the resistance to shear between the base and the snow, i.e., reduce friction. This effect needs to be unidirectional for best performance, high compressional strength, low shear strength. This is the component of the wax treatment that offers the biggest gains in speed. But the effect is diminished relatively quickly, as the wax is removed from the surface through use.

    3. Both 1&2 contribute to increasing the hydrophobic properties of base material, once 2 is depleted, the residual "in" the base is still effective.

    4. Base structure is important for reducing capillary attraction between snow (well, the liquid water that forms below your base thanks to the pressure melting point of ice) and ski (suction), but while it lasts 2 will have a bigger positive impact.

    5. Contamination of wax is a massive inhibitor of glide, which is why you want to ensure that the surface layer (2) is as thin as possible. This effect is seasonally and regionally variable (winter snow in NZ, for example, is generally very clean)

    6. Because of 5, untreated skis can (but not always) maintain better average performance over time than a waxed ski that is not well maintained.

    In light of 6, what I'd be really interested in is how much of a difference phantom makes compared to an untreated ski over time. This is where it strikes me that it might be best suited as an oem treatment for certain skis. It seems clear that to ensure best performance, regular waxing is key. As someone who spends quite a bit of time skiing around very flat areas on a splitboard sans skins, I can certainly appreciate glide. Same when making long traverses on a board - that's one of my big motivations in my own treatment of my splitboard/snowboard. Nothing worse than that feeling of running out of steam on a long toe side traverse through a no-fall zone in the middle of nowhere.

    I can't find a single published scientific study on water (stream, soil, or ground) linked to the use of ski wax on any of the major databases, or google scholar. If there really is some published research on this that dps know about, it'd be great to see the original material. Like I've said I avoid using fluoro waxes on touring gear, but I can't see any evidence that it's a major environmental concern either. Within the boundaries of a commercial ski area, the effects of wax have got to be a long way down the list of things to worry about.
     
  22. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2014
    Messages:
    3,558
    Likes Received:
    3,459
    This is exactly why Phantom was created.

    Point 1 Already covered we know wax doesn't penetrate a base any further than the top layer. The point is specific to XC skiing, which has already been covered. It's not a recommended treatment for XC because they need to change their wax according to conditions. We've stated that this is a replacement for GP type wax.
    Point 2 Ah yes, you do so you can glide. This what Phantom does, without wax.
    Point 3 Again Phantom makes this better, with longer glide for the life of the ski.
    Point 4 Again Phantom allows you to put whatever base structure you want into the ski and it will glide better.
    Point 5 Again winner for Phantom, no wax no grit to stick to it. Dirt can't penetrate a base either, particles are too big, just like wax.
    Point 6 Winner for Phantom again.

    This article will point you to the studies in Sweden and Norway re technician exposure. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ski-wax-chemicals-buildup-blood/
    This one on snowmelt.
    https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:411051/FULLTEXT01.pdf

    I"ll ask the question re studies on water tables but it is a known fact as to where the PFC's end up.

    Re Kuzmin, he's obviously a smart man but he's a Doctor of Philosophy and Physical Education. Not a biologist nor a physicist so perhaps not the right person to quote re the health risks of PFC's.

    I hope this helps.
     
  23. Red_switch

    Red_switch Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: 30 Day

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    23,572
    Likes Received:
    8,715
    Location:
    Dunedin, NZ
    I'll address this in more detail later. But for now, the exposure effects for ski technicians (which are widely studied and quite well understood) are quite different to the unquantified environmental impact of wax shed on snow.

    Also, Kuzmin is probably the world's leading current expert on the physics of ski base treatment.

    I change wax for different snow conditions. It most certainly makes a difference.

    Has phantom been tested against an untreated wax free base?

    The tesis you linked to doesn't support assertions around ecotoxicity or environmental accumulation of PFA from ski wax. It is an area that deserves more research, for sure. I know a site in NZ that could be quite ideal.
     
  24. Red_switch

    Red_switch Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: 30 Day

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    23,572
    Likes Received:
    8,715
    Location:
    Dunedin, NZ
    On point 2, I'm not sure how the physics of phantom would work if there's no low shear strength surface layer to deform at the snow/ski interface.
     
  25. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2014
    Messages:
    3,558
    Likes Received:
    3,459
    No disrespect but you can argue till the cows come home.

    Hi Flouro waxes are toxic to humans and the environment. I don't think there is any reasonable doubt there, so not sure what your argument is. Phantom works because it replicates the glide characteristics in wax with a permanent inert solution which is locked into the structure of the base.

    I've skied it and many of our customers have skied it and all have come back with the same response. It works.

    Now wouldn't you prefer to ski or board on a surface that is more earth friendly and more human friendly. I know I would.

    As for Kuzmin, if the philosopher that he is, is the world expert on current ski base treatment then perhaps you can suggest he has a look at Phantom. If he does, I'm sure he can wax lyrical.
     
    Kopite likes this.
  26. Red_switch

    Red_switch Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: 30 Day

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    23,572
    Likes Received:
    8,715
    Location:
    Dunedin, NZ
    It's not arguing, this is how science works. Someone makes a "breakthrough" claim, it needs to be scrutinised in terms of the current knowledge. You can't claim a scientific advance and then get upset when people question it...

    Many things are toxic in high enough doses. This is exactly why ski technicians should be concerned about fluoro waxes, they can be exposed to very high doses, in a form that easily makes its way into the respiratory system, and from there...

    But, and in scientific terms this is a big but (and one I'm interested in as a snow-hydro-climatologist), as much as we know that the chemicals in fluoro carbons can be fundamentally bad, there is limited, to no, evidence that they pose any significant hazard in the environment. The PhD thesis you linked to, while being a timely bit of work in a research field that does demand more attention, concludes as much. So when you make a marketing claim supposedly rooted in science that this treatment will avert some sort of environmental crisis, then yeah, the scientist in me (that works directly in the field of snow and snowmelt runoff) has to ask the question... I've no issue with people doing what they can to minimise their environmental impact, as I've said, I avoid using fluoro waxes on touring gear myself. But from a scientific point of view, the jury is very much still out.

    This is where it gets interesting, because in the apparent absence of any deformable surface coating, you can't replicate the glide of a traditional ski wax, it's doing something different. How it actually works is something I'm quite interested in and would love to see more data on. It seems that it increases the hydrophobic nature of the base material, which certainly will improve glide, and also hardens the base? Which will improve glide for snow under certain temperature conditions, but not necessarily universally...

    That's awesome, but there are also less favourable reviews out there. It sounds like a great solution, and one I'm genuinely interested in, but it also sort of sounds like an 80% performance 80% of the time kind of solution. Personally, I, and most others I know who wax/tune their own gear, do so for the remaining 20%. For me that might include having sufficient glide to keep sliding over long distances with minimal fall. With anything other than horrific snow, differences in base treatment are somewhat less pronounced on steeper terrain, and certainly away from the groomers, ime.

    I don't disagree with this at all, but tangible evidence is also lacking. And I'm still really curious as to whether it has been tested against an untreated base - as are many other folk on the internet it would seem.

    A PhD doesn't actually make someone a philosopher... But I'm sure Phantom would be something that'd interest him. Why not send him some and see what he makes of it.

    Honestly, if it's this awesome, why DPS wouldn't license it for OEM use seems beyond me.
     
    teckel and Telemark Phat like this.
  27. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2004
    Messages:
    40,990
    Likes Received:
    8,634
    Location:
    Narbethong, Vic
    There seems to be so much marketing spin, which DPS Driver is repeating. I'm sure it's better for people who never or rarely wax, but anything is. For those who regularly wax I doubt that this Phantom is as good as proper waxing. If it is, why isn't it being used in the WC circuit?

    As for the toxic environmental effects of waxing, the miniscule amount of fluoro was referenced on the previous page - I'll get the link and re-post it on this page.

    Here it is:

    The potential pollution of the snow (and subsequently of the ground and groundwater) by non-biodegradable fluorinated wax additives has been investigated. A few years ago, a concentration of fluorinated additives was found on the snow at the start of the Vasaloppet, an iconic cross country skiing event in Sweden. The concentrations reported correspond to one ounce of fluoro additive spread over seventeen miles of a trail approximately thirty-five feet wide. This concentration was found on the trail after a cross country race which draws over 10,000 skiers, most of them with significant levels of fluoro on their skis.

    We can calculate that the amount of fluoro left on the mountain after ten million skier/snowboarder visits will be, at most, 38 pounds.* To put this number into perspective, 38 pounds of fluoro, in the form of discarded microwave popcorn bags, are thrown into trash bins around America every 15 minutes.** Clearly, the environmental impact of the fluoro in snow waxes is miniscule and, in comparison with the very real hazards endangering our planet from other sources, it is insignificant.


    We support valid environmental protection initiatives but must question the actions of companies marketing "green" waxes while condemning traditional waxes; they are either intentionally misleading the consumer or simply unable to fully comprehend and properly interpret the available scientific data.
    https://www.dominatorwax.com/sites/default/files/dominator/THE-ENVIRONMENTAL-IMPACT-OF-WAXING.pdf
     
  28. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2014
    Messages:
    3,558
    Likes Received:
    3,459
    I'm not upset, never have been re this line of communication.

    I'm trying to respond to your queries but you seem to be hanging on two different aspects. One is can't claim to replicate wax and the need for differing treatments for differing temperatures and the other is quantifiable research or papers on the effects of PFC's on the environment. I'm not sure what your specific argument is.

    Re waxing for specific temperatures, which I have done as well for differing snow climates this is not an issue. During our research and trialing we discovered that we can indeed make Phantom formulations for differing temperatures. The commercial reality is that we needed to launch a disruptive product with the widest audience appeal.

    Now, my background isn't science and I don't claim to be a scientist, even though I have qualifications in snow science. I am qualified in marketing and sales. The one thing I can tell you is that you can have the best product in the world but if nobody buys it, it will disappear. We've had to launch a product with the widest market appeal to hopefully attract enough customers to potentially allow us to launch temperature specific formulations. We're a small company and can't afford to spread our risk or spend huge amounts on marketing. We've developed a product that works and is better for the environment and for humans involved in ski tuning / repairs etc. Yeah you can question it and have every right to do so but from where I stand and what I know about waxing skis and having tested the product and had others within the industry do the same, I can tell you it works.

    The science is new so is obviously open to scrutiny but several aspects of the science are irrefutable. This I have learnt as part of this process and what I thought to be fact yesterday is no longer fact today because I have been educated on the subject and understand what has been communicated to me.

    I have no reason to doubt this as it's been proven to me it works. I've used it and personally witnessed the result. I can't give you more than that, apart from try it and see for yourself.

    What I can say is DPS are more than happy to answer any questions I can't. Just jump on their contact page and they'll answer any questions you might have or point you in the right direction for answers.
     
    MarzNC likes this.
  29. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2014
    Messages:
    3,558
    Likes Received:
    3,459
    FFS Teckel. I've been asked questions about the product and am doing my best to answer them. Go back through this thread and refute that.

    Shove your marketing spin fair up your know it all arse. You contact DPS and ask them. You appear to be the world expert on waxing. How's the flat earth working out for you?

    You were the one coming out with your protestations which were scientifically incorrect so don't shoot the messenger because you're too entrenched to accept that their may be a better way.

    Why isn't the WC circuit using it, because it was just launched this year ya pineapple. Will they, who knows. I suppose if we pay them the same sponsorship dollars as the huge waxing companies do, they might.

    Oy vey.
     
  30. MarzNC

    MarzNC One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2017
    Messages:
    528
    Likes Received:
    365
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC, USA
    Finding the discussion interesting. Do you have a link to an unfavorable review? Would be interested to know the details of the situation for someone who wasn't happy with Phantom performance.

    I fall in the 80% you mention. I spend a fair amount of time interacting with people only ski on resort, do not race, do not know how to wax their own gear, or post in online ski forums even if they are reading. Read on for more than you need to know about my experience with Phantom this season. Hadn't had a chance to write it down before.

    I'm an advanced older skier, resort only. Not interested in backcountry touring. Only had the time and money after age 55 for >15 days on snow per season. Have averaged 50 days on snow in recent years. I learned how to wax skis at home but don't have a work bench set up just for dealing with skis. There are 4-5 pairs of skis in the house between me and my teen daughter (advanced skier by age 11). I tend to pay for a wax and/or tune at a good ski shop 2-3 times a season. (Not a Ph.D. scientist, but a Ph.D. statistician married to a Ph.D. chemist who doesn't ski.)

    My experience is based on treating one pair of skis in January, the Head Absolut Joys (bought new three years ago) that I use for short slopes with manmade snow. The glide was good after the first couple runs (1 min runs at my small home hill near Washington DC). As good as after a fresh home wax. I skied the AJs with traditional wax the first 5 ski days during Dec 2017 and early Jan 2018 (groomed slopes at several different places). Skied the Phantom bases in a variety of snow conditions starting mid-Jan at my home hill because there was a major warm up that brought on spring conditions in the southeast. I also skied a few days in the northeast in late Jan, including on several inches of fresh powder when it was quite cold. Was quite happy with the glide.

    However, the direct comparison came in May when I did a last minute ski safari to Oregon and California with my primary ski buddy. He's somewhat older and been an advanced skier since high school. We skied at Bachelor, Mt. Hood Meadows, Squaw, and Mammoth over 10 days. We skied 7 days in late spring conditions that meant we and most other people were done for the day by 1:00pm because of sticky snow even mid-mountain. I brought two pairs of skis, original Black Pearls (88 underfoot, bought 2012) with traditional wax and my AJs treated with Phantom that are 78 underfoot. My ski buddy had his all-mountain skis, which he waxes himself. The waxed skis needed application of a paste wax at least once by mid-morning, if not twice, in order to slide reasonably until we quit for the day. Even though the design of the BPs was more appropriate for ungroomed terrain or the pushed around snow after mid-morning, I ended up far more comfortable on the AJs with Phantom. I could trust the glide to be more consistent, even when getting to sticky snow. The AJs were skiing as well after about 20+ days on snow as they did on Day 1 after treating with Phantom. In the past, I probably would've waxed them 2-3 times at home and paid for a wax or tune 1-2 times while I was traveling (driving) and skiing.

    FYI, for mid-season trips to the Rockies and an annual late season trip to Alta I bring my Stöckli Stormriders and prefer skiing ski 60-70% on ungroomed terrain. Those skis won't get waxed that often because it's not needed on cold natural snow, if not fresh powder at least snow that qualifies as "packed powder" with no snow from a snowgun. While I may eventually treat the Stormriders with Phantom, I'm not in any hurry to do so.

    I am not connected to DPS. Have enjoyed demo'ing DPS skis at the Alta Demo Day in April in recent years but unlikely to buy powder skis. I rent demo skis on the rare times that I get lucky and catch a powder storm. DPS skis are my first choice to rent but often the DPS demo skis are all sold by late season.
     
    #181 MarzNC, Jul 5, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2018
  31. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2004
    Messages:
    40,990
    Likes Received:
    8,634
    Location:
    Narbethong, Vic
    Ouch!
    My protestations scientifically incorrect? Because you say so? Well, as you're the marketing and sales guru, you should know!
    If Phantom (meaning not real, illusory, a figment of the imagination) is still around in a few years time, I may check the impact it's had on wax companies.
    Now those waxing companies may pay sponsorship dollars, but their products have to stack up in an environment where winning is paramount.

    Not for XC? Where waxing is almost an art form? So, it's not as good as waxing for snow at different temperature? Oh, and I come from an XC waxing background.
     
  32. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2014
    Messages:
    3,558
    Likes Received:
    3,459
    Can you please go back and look at the information in this forum. Then perhaps get a hold of the scientist that developed it. NOT BECAUSE I SAID SO but because that is what the scientist who invented it told me. Wax doesn't penetrate a base. Like I said, I'm not a scientist. So feel free to keep poking me if that is what floats your boat.

    Why don't you ask MarzNC above who has used it and happily provided a run down of their experience with it.

    Now I'll try this again because it doesn't seem to be getting through. We didn't recommend it for XC because it's a general purpose formulation and most XC skiers want to wax to the conditions. Not because it doesn't work but because of the high degree of waxing techniques they like to use, ie kick wax underfoot and glide wax on the tip and tail etc.

    This being said feel free to keep posting on this forum and deriding the product , as that seems to be your primary objective, even though you've never used it or bothered to chase up more information about it.
     
  33. Red_switch

    Red_switch Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: 30 Day

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    23,572
    Likes Received:
    8,715
    Location:
    Dunedin, NZ
    I haven't seen anyone here deride the product.

    But I take it from what you're saying is that at this stage Phantom is good for people who are interested in a general formulation, and not so much for those who wax/tune to conditions?

    If temperature/condition specific variations of Phantom are formulated, what would be the process of changing from one to another? Do we somehow need to remove the existing treatment?
     
    teckel likes this.
  34. azzski

    azzski Should know better Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 1999
    Messages:
    40,785
    Likes Received:
    18,417
    Location:
    St Kilda, Australia
    A reminder to keep the discussion civil, respectful and on topic thanks folks.
     
    Richard, skifree and DPS Driver like this.
  35. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2014
    Messages:
    3,558
    Likes Received:
    3,459
    Yeah sorry.
     
    Richard likes this.
  36. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2014
    Messages:
    3,558
    Likes Received:
    3,459
    Maybe not the product but the science which is essentially the same thing when it's a new science driven product. Questioning it is fine, no issue but to blindly continue on a platform without fully finding out the facts is a bit painful, not that you did that.

    Yeah, a general purpose finish. GP covers lots of snow covered countries. If you want to wax to the conditions, which in NZ and Australia don't really move outside the GP spectrum too often then you can. Remember you can wax over the top of Phantom if you want. Then when your wax wears off you still have a good gliding surface.

    The different temperature formulations would be more a regional approach. If you generally ski in very cold climate temps then potentially you could buy a cold climate formulation the same as wax. We haven't gone down that path yet but this was a discovery we made during the testing of the product.
     
  37. Kopite

    Kopite One of Us

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2017
    Messages:
    484
    Likes Received:
    592
    Location:
    North Curly
    Mine and my kids skis are treated with Phatom as previously said. So far it works as described and I'm happy as larry as I'm not a home waxer nor do I want to be. In compassion last week at Perisher my sisters skis lost glide on a fresh wax by day 3. IF I was a home waxer I think I'd still be inclined to use Phantom for the underlying treatment, then wax in addition for the best of both worlds. From reading there's a few racers who are already doing that - Phantom plus wax.
     
    MarzNC and DPS Driver like this.
  38. Red_switch

    Red_switch Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: 30 Day

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    23,572
    Likes Received:
    8,715
    Location:
    Dunedin, NZ
    You wanna try peer review ;)

    I've been doing a bit of work lately measuring snow surface temperatures in the mountains here (and looking at spatial and temporal variability), our snow surfaces do get decently cold in early and mid-winter. And I've always found warm waxes perform much better than general purpose once you're hitting an isothermic spring snowpack.
     
  39. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    17,685
    Likes Received:
    12,056
    Location:
    Jindabyne
    I think the thing to remember is that Phantom only claims to be better than a universal wax. No one uses even good quality universal waxes for Nordic since they're just not good enough.

    If your part of the majority who don't regularly wax it looks like a winner. If you regularly wax with temp appropriate waxes it's probably an unnecessary extra.

    I would like to try it on my teaching skis.
     
    Red_switch likes this.
  40. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2014
    Messages:
    3,558
    Likes Received:
    3,459
    Yeah, love one but can't even get my own demo kit out of the US because they sold out so fast.

    I should have it by the time I hit NZ, if so I'll throw a pack in and we can talk a deal. There may be alcohol involved.:cheers:
     
  41. Marty_McSly

    Marty_McSly Backwards to the future! Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2011
    Messages:
    8,071
    Likes Received:
    8,302
    Location:
    Hunter Valley Whine Country, NSW
  42. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2014
    Messages:
    3,558
    Likes Received:
    3,459
    Hang on, Phantom hasn't claimed to be better than wax. It's a wax replacement or a base treatment which eliminates the need to wax. The claim is that you don't need to wax and you will retain glide as per waxing. What it does claim to do is stop the shedding of PFC's into the snowpack, which it does.

    Agree with everything else. DPS made the claim not suitable for Nordic straight upfront because of the waxing process Nordic skiers use. Not because it doesn't work on their skis. Yeah it will work as per advertised as a GP wax. Which as you correctly point out is not what they want. Therefore for others here to pick on the fact that it's not suitable for Nordic is rather unfair and also misleading as per the message DPS has around the product.

    It's performing as we've stated and have two separate people on this forum who have used it and found that it works as stated. I've skied it on my sponsored riders skis in NZ last year and found it to work after over 40 days on the skis.

    Again, I'm getting a demo pack to share around to a few industry people. If I have any left I'll give you a hoy. Hopefully, I will have it prior to the end of July.
     
  43. MarzNC

    MarzNC One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2017
    Messages:
    528
    Likes Received:
    365
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC, USA
    I read the info on the Phantom Kickstarter webpage from 2017 pretty carefully before deciding to become a backer. Wasn't my first time backing a Kickstarter product. Also listened to the Blistergear interview with the professor leading the research team in Utah. And read anything I could find about Juice.

    This graphic on Kickstarter is in the section titled Performance In Detail. A key phrase is "over time." My experience matches the curve. There have been times when I've skied on skis that were way overdue for a waxing due to laziness or the distraction of being a parent.

    Unless you are constantly waxing with the correct temperature specific waxes, Phantom is faster across all conditions over time because its performance is consistent: you never suffer the glide degradation that happens when wax starts to quickly wear away.
    [​IMG]
     
  44. MarzNC

    MarzNC One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2017
    Messages:
    528
    Likes Received:
    365
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC, USA
    Getting harder to find a region in the U.S. that stays truly cold for 2-3 months straight. In 2017 my daughter's spring break trip to Utah was in the first half of March. We ended up skiing in spring conditions warm enough for sticky snow near the base of Alta by lunch time for most of the week. Powder Mountain was even warmer the final weekend. In New England, dealing with a major warm spell in Jan or Feb is becoming the norm. People who do day trips from Washington DC into the Mid-Atlantic hills to the north and west are used to a Jan thaw that brings spring conditions for a week or so. In the Mid-Atlantic, most ski resorts have 100% coverage for snowmaking and fire up the snow guns from Nov thru Mar when the weather cooperates.
     
  45. rols

    rols Addicted

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2006
    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    103
    Location:
    tas
    I'm not against phantom, I might even use it at some stage once the dust settles, but it is an easy product to be sceptical of. Any multi variate phenomenon, such as a ski sliding on snow, is often hard to predict with accuracy using simple terms. Many tribological problems display characteristics that are almost counter intuitive, the case of a ski sliding on snow is probably even worse considering there is phase change involved. It seems to me that phantom is changing only 2 variables (base hardness and surface energy) in the "ski moving across snow system". So used alone, it is not likely to optimise glide but may well be good enough in many cases.
    It appears to be a bit of a black box product, I think if DPS marketed phantom with more detailed information saying exactly what it is and the phenomenon exploited to improve glide the reaction from sceptics might be different. If DPS is confident in their research and IP protection then I don't see a reason not to share the information? Then again some people don't care and will accept the current marketing message.
     
    Telemark Phat and Red_switch like this.
  46. Red_switch

    Red_switch Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: 30 Day

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2006
    Messages:
    23,572
    Likes Received:
    8,715
    Location:
    Dunedin, NZ
    eh?
     
  47. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver One of Us

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2014
    Messages:
    3,558
    Likes Received:
    3,459
    [QUOTE="rols, post: 3629342, member: 11224"I don't see a reason not to share the information?"[/QUOTE]
    Sorry! you don't see a reason not to share the information. That's a bit narrow minded. If Swix developed a great new wax product would they be running out to tell the world how they did it, regardless of the IP being sewn up. I think not.

    Should DPS disclose their patented treatment of nano resins and carbon fibre to make their Alchemist skis? This is commercial in confidence because it's the result of their work and investment in both dollars and time to create the formula. It's their USP.

    How many other products out there disclose their full scientific data for products which they've patented and wish to protect the R&D dollars spent. If it works then isn't that proof of the concept. Hundreds of happy users have validated that it works.

    Yes it's a disruptive product but by no means has DPS been deceptive. They've got a business to run. They were the ones who spent their money to create the product. They're not a "not for profit". Oh and yes they're guilty of marketing their product which is what they're meant to do as a business.

    There is no conspiracy. Use it or don't. You have a choice. If those around you adopt it and suggest you should give it a try then perhaps you will join those who have or perhaps you won't. Again the choice is yours.

    The one thing Teckel said that I agree with is "time will tell". Not a truer word has been spoken.
     
    Kopite and MarzNC like this.
  48. MarzNC

    MarzNC One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2017
    Messages:
    528
    Likes Received:
    365
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC, USA
    Aha! Didn't connect the dots before with all the other points in the original long post. Point #5 is probably directly related to why I liked Phantom treated bases better than traditional warm-weather wax for late, late season skiing (after May 2).

    It was quite obvious that skiing clean snow meant better glide than on snow with visible dirt at Mt. Hood Meadows and Mammoth. Hadn't snowed for a few weeks and plenty of wind on the upper mountain. With all the bare terrain near the open slopes, there was dirt everywhere even on groomers. My ski buddy noticed it first. He waxed his skis with warm weather wax before leaving home. I used my Phantom skis the first day at Bachelor and for the morning at Meadows. I switched skis after lunch at Meadows as a test. I waxed my all-mountain skis (older pair of Black Pearls that are rock skis now) with warm weather wax just before leaving home. Even though the waxed skis were 10mm wider underfoot and better suited to the pushed around snow on groomers, it was clear Phantom bases were better. After a run or two on the waxed skis I was actively searching out clean snow. Especially when I rode the beginner lift a couple times for the view (never been to Meadows before) just before we quit.

    I got two packages from the Phantom Kickstarter. Planning to use the second on my daughter's tele skis that are relatively new. Then get more for my rock skis that I plan to keep and use during early and late season. As I mentioned earlier, not going to treat the skis I only use for mid-season trips on natural snow at big mountains just yet.
     
  49. rols

    rols Addicted

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2006
    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    103
    Location:
    tas
    Sorry! you don't see a reason not to share the information. That's a bit narrow minded. If Swix developed a great new wax product would they be running out to tell the world how they did it, regardless of the IP being sewn up. I think not.

    Should DPS disclose their patented treatment of nano resins and carbon fibre to make their Alchemist skis? This is commercial in confidence because it's the result of their work and investment in both dollars and time to create the formula. It's their USP.

    How many other products out there disclose their full scientific data for products which they've patented and wish to protect the R&D dollars spent. If it works then isn't that proof of the concept. Hundreds of happy users have validated that it works.

    Yes it's a disruptive product but by no means has DPS been deceptive. They've got a business to run. They were the ones who spent their money to create the product. They're not a "not for profit". Oh and yes they're guilty of marketing their product which is what they're meant to do as a business.

    There is no conspiracy. Use it or don't. You have a choice. If those around you adopt it and suggest you should give it a try then perhaps you will join those who have or perhaps you won't. Again the choice is yours.

    The one thing Teckel said that I agree with is "time will tell". Not a truer word has been spoken.[/QUOTE]
    Don't be sorry, just take it as an observation that your marketing material is short on substance.