Driving to the snow: yet another plea to fall on deaf ears

LMB

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Give way to the right.....right?
Heading to Perisher today from Jindy, pulling out of Kalkite and a guy (to my right) supposedly going straight ahead (with right of way, and closer to the roundabout than me at the time) STOPS. Then waves for me to go.
It's like eating chocolate after brushing your teeth.
Who does that!

I was worried the guy behind him was going to rear end him.
 

sly_karma

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^^ that happens often here. Roundabouts are not very common in BC but we have a couple in my town. The old dears who make up most of the population have NFI what to do with roundabouts, even though one of them has been there for a decade now. The old white people will usually stop dead to give way to someone looking like they might want to enter the roundabout.
 

tbnext

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I'll slightly qualify, I prefer that guy than the one doing 110 who makes a new rule.
 

sly_karma

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I've been guilty of effecting a little 'behaviour modification' in the past, particularly when I was a sales rep and driving 60,000 km annually. I'd be on a freeway doing 10 kmh over the 110 limit (like the rest of the traffic) and would see in the mirrors someone coming up seriously fast, 150-160 range. I would begin to drive 'erratically', some slight drifting in and out of lane. That would make racer boy slow down and assess. At that point, my erratic behaviour would mysteriously cease; after a few moments, speedy would ease by most carefully. Doubtful it would make any lasting difference but it did ensure safer behaviour around yours truly.
 

Ubiquitous Steve

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I find driver behaviour is a real problem on the Hume.

The masses use cruise control where I normally sit at say 115kph in 110kph zone in areas without fixed speed cameras.

They travel so close together:bunched up because they are to scared of exceeding the speed limit all cruising at close to 110kph.

And when its time for them to move over from inside lane they are god dam too slow:again because they are too scared to accelerate above the designated speed limit!!!!

I am not a fan of cruise control which seems to lead to silly driver behaviours...
 

weerab

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It's not surprising that they are scared of going over the speed limit as there are cameras everywhere and cop cars hiding in the bushes! I usually sit on 120kph which for my car is actually 112kph but I get annoyed when idiots have to get past you, pull in too close in front of you and then take their foot off the accelerator forcing me to slow down a bit. It happens all the time on the Hume and I get your point about the bunching, it sometimes pays to sit in the space between two "bunches".

I did a defensive driving course a while back and one of the things the instuctor stressed was to leave a lot of space around you in case things go pear shaped. I already practiced this as I hate tailgaters with a passion. My FIL used to do it when we travelled in convoy on the Hume, everytime I looked in the rear vision I would see his face and when I indicated to overtake he would sometimes pull out before I did!

I saw a guy last night sitting approx one metre from the back of this little sedan who was going a bit too slow.
 

Yardsale

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Ubiquitous Steve said:
...I normally sit at say 115kph in 110kph ....
I am not a fan of cruise control which seems to lead to silly driver behaviours...

Does anyone see the logical fallacy here?
 
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Sandy

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Yardsale said:
Ubiquitous Steve said:
...I normally sit at say 115kph in 110kph ....
I am not a fan of cruise control which seems to lead to silly driver behaviours...

Does anyone see the logical fallacy here?

Yep. Cruise control makes other drivers' speed predictable, which means that it's one less unpredictable element to contend with....
 
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dawooduck

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I absolutely love cruise control but mine must be broken as I keep passing people. I don't like " little groups" of cars and avoid or go past at the first opportunity.

If you really want a lesson in driver behaviour drive the F3 during commuter hour and then the weekends. Two totally different behaviour patterns with the weekends, especially Friday nights being totally hopeless long snake all going the speed limit or under in the right hand lane.

It is not cruise control that’s the issue its “lane entitlement syndromeâ€.
 

Nidecker

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Ubiquitous Steve said:
.....where I normally sit at say 115kph in 110kph zone in areas

You will have to be more specific. 115km as indicated by your cars speedo or 115km on a GPS? The two speeds are in most cases 10kmhr different.

if your car complies with ADR, then it will definitely be slower travelling at the speedo speed
smile.gif
 
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Ubiquitous Steve

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Except sometimes the nana heads come fly up your asse obviously on cruise control and their brains somewhere else...they are slow to react to changed traffic speeds and/or have difficulty getting off cruise control.Then fly around your bum at last second..

Bunching up is really a dangerous way to drive:better to be in the gap between a convoy all sitting on the speed limit.

I wonder if having to keep my foot on accelerator has kept me on long trips from falling asleep after 3 continuous hours of driving....many just fall asleep in a nice stupor and wake up in bushes if they are lucky!!!!!

And its about time the speed indicator sign at Beveridge was fixed:it irks me and little bears that its good enough to keep making revenue from cameras but the govt cannot fix the bloody sign..or stop collecting all fines around here till its fixed???
 

Donza

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Dr. Wood Duck said:
I absolutely love cruise control but mine must be broken as I keep passing people. I don't like " little groups" of cars and avoid or go past at the first opportunity.

If you really want a lesson in driver behaviour drive the F3 during commuter hour and then the weekends. Two totally different behaviour patterns with the weekends, especially Friday nights being totally hopeless long snake all going the speed limit or under in the right hand lane.

It is not cruise control that’s the issue its “lane entitlement syndromeâ€.
Same deal on the F6 duckmonster....we just have less lanes.
 
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dawooduck

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Friday night, avoid at all costs. Straight out of the sunburbs and onto the right hand lane of the freeway in a big old follow the leader to no where snake.

WTF cannot Australia drivers use the left lane of a 3 lane freeway is beyond me.
 

Ubiquitous Steve

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Probably a good thing we got stringent gun laws as i am sure bears and i would have let a few bullets rip before now when drivers refuse to vacate inside lane when no other car exists

I t aint just speed being the problem on the roads its stupidity and lack of experience....
Speed cameras advocates are barking up the wrong tree i feel .....
 

Donza

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Sandy said:
Dr. Wood Duck said:
WTF cannot Australia drivers use the left lane of a 3 lane freeway is beyond me.

You should drive in Japan!!!!
wink.gif
Japan is a trip to drive in.
Though I enjoy it.
 
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weerab

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I only use cruise control sparingly to give my right foot a break, don't like the feeling really, and you do tend to creep up on slower drivers, or drivers who have just felt the need to overtake you then slow down after pulling in front of you.
 

blutek

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and when you get to the Perisher Car Park:
1. Is it OK to start a new line when the one in front may be half full, & with the car park attendants still on duty waving you over?
I'm a serial offender, always parking in the next vacant space on the Kosciusko Road end of the parking lines. Although it can confuse the direction of the moving traffic queue. If you end up parked near the back row, you can use the resort bus over to the skitube & return.
There can be a risk of car damage from being hit by skis & stocks - from people walking between cars. The spaces are too small for 4WD sized vehicles - & with people cradling skis & stocks horizontally in front, trying to walk between. Particularly is the first section of the carpark.

2. don't park all day in the two disabled car park spaces in the front row, using your mum's (or dads) car parking authority (I know people who have).

 

CBR

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Ubiquitous Steve said:
I find driver behaviour is a real problem on the Hume.

The masses use cruise control where I normally sit at say 115kph in 110kph zone in areas without fixed speed cameras.

They travel so close together:bunched up because they are to scared of exceeding the speed limit all cruising at close to 110kph.

And when its time for them to move over from inside lane they are god dam too slow:again because they are too scared to accelerate above the designated speed limit!!!!

I am not a fan of cruise control which seems to lead to silly driver behaviours...

I agreed with all of this right up until you bagged out cruise control. I do the Sydney/Canberra drive every second weekend or so and sit between 115 and 118 (on GPS), depending on the conditions and double demerit weekend status, and I always do it on cruise control because that makes my driving (and, particularly, overtaking) behaviour predictable.

It's the convoy bunchers (with their eyes glued to the 110 on the speedo) and the turkeys that I overtake 10 or 15 times because they truck along at 100, often talking to their passengers, realise how slow they're going and zoom on up to 130, that cause dangerous behaviour. Oh, and the turkeys who sit in the right lane JUST BECAUSE and force me to overtake on the left because they don't understand that flashing lights and then a polite beep means MOVE THE flamboyant_expletive OVER YOU flamboyant_expletive
laugh.gif
 
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piolet

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Nidecker said:
Ubiquitous Steve said:
.....where I normally sit at say 115kph in 110kph zone in areas

You will have to be more specific. 115km as indicated by your cars speedo or 115km on a GPS? The two speeds are in most cases 10kmhr different.

if your car complies with ADR, then it will definitely be slower travelling at the speedo speed
smile.gif

I wonder how often it is that you come upon a car going 15-20 below the limit - if theyre sitting 10 below the posted limit, just 'to be safe' and really being 20 under? If theyre that timid under normal circumstances, id suggest they may not be competent enough to hold a license? And theyll take 20% longer to get there! Gah!

I really like the sound of that 'must pull over' law in the states!
 
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Yardsale

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Some of the speedos are completely out of whack. You also get the crowd that like to travel at 80kph to save fuel (it does actually work, but is annoying as hell).

Cruise is a much more responsible thing to use. After all, when the relative speed difference between you and other moving objects is zero, so is your risk of colliding with them, Humans are a very poor judge of relative speed when compared to other animals.

In addition, after a hard day of skiing, it it much better to have your leg muscles relaxed. Just ask my physio who is in the process of trying to sort out my right ITB at the moment!
 

piolet

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Yardsale said:
Some of the speedos are completely out of whack. You also get the crowd that like to travel at 80kph to save fuel (it does actually work, but is annoying as hell).

Wow, people actually do that?! Hope their speedo isnt out giving them an even slower speed and a false economy
laugh.gif

Time is money!
 
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Hermannator

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Yardsale said:
You also get the crowd that like to travel at 80kph to save fuel (it does actually work, but is annoying as hell).

Why do that when you can sit in the draft behind a semi at 100km/h?
 
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bdenny4

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Yardsale said:
Cruise is a much more responsible thing to use.
In addition, after a hard day of skiing, it it much better to have your leg muscles relaxed.

Saw an absolute D!ckhead travelling up the Hume the Saturday of the long weekend most obviously with the cruise on - he had both his feet on top of the dash as he travelled along at 110km/h!
Black Ford Territory
 
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Nidecker

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bdenny4 said:
...Saw an absolute D!ckhead travelling up the Hume ....... Black Ford Territory

Unlikely to have radar controlled breaking either
smile.gif


I'm with most of you guys, hate driving in a bunch of cars, but from CBR to OOM and on to JIN sometimes you just have to suck it up. Friday nights / Sunday afternoons, doesn't matter how many cars you pass, there will always be a gimp in front of you, gotta just hope the gimp isn't a learner
 
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blutek

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Past Canberra to Jindy, from late afternoon, I don't like leading the bunch because of the 'roo's (more so after rain apparently). Although I had heard that the 3rd car often takes the hit when they are spooked, & jump from the road side.
 

piolet

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Yah they always over-read a fair bit, my near new subi will give me 112 @ 120 indicated. Its nanna state stuff but i guess the original intent is that there may be an error in the speedo, so make it so a minor error wont put it over? Of course modern cars shouldnt need this. Total bs but with the advent of gps being commonplace people are starting to realise. It seems our pollies are convinced that speed really, really matters.
 

Marty McSly

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Ubiquitous Steve said:
Probably a good thing we got stringent gun laws as i am sure bears and i would have let a few bullets rip before now when drivers refuse to vacate inside lane when no other car exists
If you mean the overtaking lane, it is actually the outside lane.

Kerbside is inside, you go out and around to overtake.
 
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Nidecker

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sly_karma said:
What's this about ADRs requiring speedos to be deliberately inaccurate? Srs?


Australian Design Rules (ADR)

When vehicle manufacturers install a speedo at the factory, the speedo has been calibrated using data that assumes the vehicle is fitted with new standard tyres inflated to full pressure, on standard rims, and usually the tyre circumference has been measured before the wheel is put on a vehicle or when the vehicle is on a hoist (no load on tyre). When they test the car for compliance with the ADR, the speedo will invariably produce an over-read result.

The current Australian Design Rules require speedos to be calibrated when the vehicle is unladen, fitted with normal tyres inflated to full pressure with an allowance for tyre heating:

"Unladen vehicle" means the vehicle in running order, complete with fuel, coolant, lubricant, tools and a spare wheel (if provided as standard equipment by the vehicle manufacturer), carrying a driver weighing 75 kg, but no driver's mate, optional accessories or load.
"Tyres normally fitted" means the type or types of tyre provided by the manufacturer on the vehicle type in question; snow tyres shall not be regarded as tyres normally fitted;
"Normal running pressure" means the cold inflation pressure specified by the vehicle manufacturer increased by 0.2 bar.

The current ADR prohibits any under-reading:

"5.3. The speed indicated shall not be less than the true speed of the vehicle. At the test speeds specified in paragraph 5.2.5. above, there shall be the following relationship between the speed displayed (V1 ) and the true speed (V2).
0 less than or equal to (V1 - V2) less than or equal to 0.1 V2 + 4 km/h."
This formula means that the vehicle's actual (true) speed must not be greater than the displayed speed. (Displayed speed minus true speed must be greater than or equal to 0, and less than or equal to 4kmh plus 10% of true speed). This means that if your vehicle's actual speed is 100kmh, the displayed speed is permitted to be anywhere between 100kmh and 114kmh.

Prior to July 2006 the ADR allowed the speedo read ±10% of true speed. This means that cars sold new prior to 1 July 2006 could comply with the ADR even if the speedo under-read by 10%. Despite this being theoretically possible, due to the testing procedures and the reasons stated below it was unlikely to occur in practice.

The reason the ADR are relevent to the debate is that some people argue that if the ADR allows cars to have speedos that under-read by up to 10%, then surely our road laws should tolerate people relying on their speedos and possibly driving up to 10% over the speed limit. Therefore, the argument goes, we should not be fined if we travel at 110kmh in a 100kmh zone because we are travelling within the tolerances allowed by the ADR. Such a situation would be quiet generous to motorists and would make it impossible for anyone to allege that they were mislead by their inaccurate speedo.

You may find some people who argue that the Australian Design Rules somehow have the equivalence of Commonwealth legislation which means they can override Victoria's speeding laws. This is utter stupidity. First, the ADR is not Commonwealth legislation, even though it may have been adopted by some Commonwealth legislation. Even where the ADR is incorporated into Commonwealth legislation, neither that legislation nor the ADR itself conflicts with any Victorian law that requires a motorist to drive within a speed limit. This means there is no conflict of laws that requires s.109 of the Australian Constituion to resolve.

Another problem with this argument is that it ignores reality. It assumes that speedos are under-reading by 10% when the truth is the vast majority of speedos over-read by about 3%. So in effect, it is allowing the majority of motorists the opportunity to drive at 10% above the speed limit. If the speed limits are there for a reason, then they would all need to be reduced by 10% to counter the effect of motorists increasing their speed above it.

If a motorist has a speedo that under-reads by any amount, then that person could try to argue that they have a defence of "honest and reasonable belief" in a state of facts which if true would make their conduct innocent. (See Proudman v. Dayman). Unfortunately, the Victorian Supreme Court has said that your state of mind (i.e. what you believed) is irrelevant in all speeding cases. So what you thought or believed can never be a defence to a speeding charge. Anyway, a Proudman v. Dayman defence would never be dependant on the existence of the Australian Design Rule specification. A court would be concerned with what your speedo actually displays, not what the ADR says it could display. The existence of the ADR actually harms an argument based on honest and reasonable belief. If the ADR says your speedo can lawfully be inaccurate at the point of sale then it is not reasonable for you to believe that it is accurate when you drove the car.

Any driver who relies on the existence of the old ADR as the basis for their belief that their speedo was accurate will fail because the old ADR does not require a speedo to be accurate. It allowed it to be out by up to 10%. And if you're thinking of arguing that the ADR is a "law" which applies in the State of Victoria, then you'll need to think of an answer to the principle that ignorance of the law is no excuse. If the ADR is a law then you are deemed to have known that your speedo could be under-reading by up to 10%, so you had no basis for your belief that it was correctly displaying your speed at the time of the alleged offence.

If having an incorrect speedo were a defence to speeding then all you would need to do is ensure your speedo is wrong and you will never have to pay a fine. If the inaccuracy of your speedo is merely a theoretical possibility, then that just turns a very weak argument into a hopeless one because you are not addressing what in fact happened to you on the date of the offence.

For most of the 20th century there was no requirement that cars must be fitted with speedos, seat belts and many other items we all take for granted these days.
 
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Marty McSly

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Ubiquitous Steve said:
I am not a fan of cruise control which seems to lead to silly driver behaviours...
It can... but then if used properly it can be a boon.

What most of the wombats don't seem to realise is that cruise should be adjusted to suit conditions, those + and - buttons aren't there for decoration. I use cruise to help me stay alert on highway trips. Coming up to a bunch of traffic I assess whether I can overtake, if not then I'll back off the speed via the - button until I'm at the same speed as the bunch but well behind them. Or I'll cancel cruise and just use the accelerator until I have clear road in front of me again.
 
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dawooduck

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Marty_McSly said:
Ubiquitous Steve said:
I am not a fan of cruise control which seems to lead to silly driver behaviours...
It can... but then if used properly it can be a boon.

What most of the wombats don't seem to realise is that cruise should be adjusted to suit conditions, those + and - buttons aren't there for decoration. I use cruise to help me stay alert on highway trips. Coming up to a bunch of traffic I assess whether I can overtake, if not then I'll back off the speed via the - button until I'm at the same speed as the bunch but well behind them. Or I'll cancel cruise and just use the accelerator until I have clear road in front of me again.

I "drive by wire" all the time. Cruise is fantastic but isn't a set n forget tool.
 
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Marty McSly

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sly_karma said:
Please please please cancel cruise control if there is even a possibility of frost on the road.
Only on wide open highways for me, none of which are close to that sort of altitude, or so heavily trafficked that frost doesn't get a chance to form. I don't use cruise past Berridale as the road is too undulating from there on for me to feel safe with it on.
 
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tbnext

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Cruise control is brilliant and I really question these posts of conga lines using it, if that was true I would not be cancelling all the time. When I use it, I ignore my speedo and set speed by GPS, I have my own "over" settings like 109 in a 109, 121 in a 110 etc. yes I'm speeding ok...but even though I'm on the lookout for the pooleece, I have sometimes passed them without seeing them and they have never looked interested.

I also find I am by far and away the fastest car on the road with everyone getting in my way. My thoughts they ate not using cruise or GPS. I haven't been booked recently but I've been booked plenty, pre cruise, when you lose a bit of speedo concentration and drift to 140.
 

LMB

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There was a nasty head on collision on Alpine Way a few KMs from Wild Brumby (Thredbo side) at 2pm today. Kudos to those on the scene, they were managing the traffic really well while waiting for Ambo's, police and firies. I checked they didn't need any help, but they had it under control. Great work!
Also kudos to the all vehicles driving in both directions - everyone was warning everyone else with a flash of the headlights and a slow down hand gesture, and everyone was acknowledging and slowing down.

There are times when faith is restored.
 

Yardsale

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tbnext said:
My thoughts they ate not using cruise or GPS. I haven't been booked recently but I've been booked plenty, pre cruise, when you lose a bit of speedo concentration and drift to 140.

Correct. Most cars don't use the GPS speed.
The speed of the speedometer comes off the output shaft from the gearbox. That shaft then then is stepped up through, gears in the diff, and then finally the rims + tyres + inflation pressure. So the measurement being slightly out on the output shaft will multiply by the time it gets to the wheels. Hence the 10% leeway for speedos.
 
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telecrag

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I love cruise, I just set it, then go into the back and have a nap until I get there.
 

WaitAwhile

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You can see how these stupid accidents happen,just drove back to jindy from the skitube,and a few idiots that love overtaking on double white lines around corners,10 minutes later at the T junction near the servo,they are 50 metres in front of you,in a long queue.!!!!!.
 

LMB

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Pffftt...I had some joker UNDERtake me at the merge point from (hmmm? Either ski tube or lake crackenback) a few days ago - despite doing at least the speed limit I knew he was on my tail and impatient so I had begun to look for a spot to pull to the shoulder while still driving. I was just about to pull into the merging lane at the left when I realised he had gunned it, gone semi off road and was trying the undertake move.... Seriously? I braked and let him get past...but THAT is exactly how accidents happen on that stretch of road.

And today's accident was a visual reminder for me of why I take that road seriously.
 

dawooduck

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That Thredbo stretch has killed a fair few people. Never seen a cop along their though. Too busy hiding in the shrubbery on the PB road, creating traffic jams or sitting outside the shops in Jindy.
 

climberman

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Dr. Wood Duck said:
That Thredbo stretch has killed a fair few people. Never seen a cop along their though. Too busy hiding in the shrubbery on the PB road, creating traffic jams or sitting outside the shops in Jindy.

I've seen em on the Alpine Way, near skitube. They were speed checking. At the end of a ski day.
 
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Piste Again

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Lady Mamabear said:
Pffftt...I had some joker UNDERtake me at the merge point from (hmmm? Either ski tube or lake crackenback) a few days ago - despite doing at least the speed limit I knew he was on my tail and impatient so I had begun to look for a spot to pull to the shoulder while still driving. I was just about to pull into the merging lane at the left when I realised he had gunned it, gone semi off road and was trying the undertake move.... Seriously? I braked and let him get past...but THAT is exactly how accidents happen on that stretch of road.

And today's accident was a visual reminder for me of why I take that road seriously.

A few years back on a shuttle from Thredbo to Cooma Airport, the driver told me that he'd had one guy in a 4WD take completely to the grass through Berridale, in the 60 zone to the east of town, to undertake him.

That's just stupid.
 
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Snowfi

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climberman said:
Dr. Wood Duck said:
That Thredbo stretch has killed a fair few people. Never seen a cop along their though. Too busy hiding in the shrubbery on the PB road, creating traffic jams or sitting outside the shops in Jindy.

I've seen em on the Alpine Way, near skitube. They were speed checking. At the end of a ski day.

They're there.

I saw someone getting booked on the Alpine Way, by a marked car, just north of Thredbo on Saturday.
 
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