Falls creek and spider chains (K Summits) in 2021

Every2years

Addicted
Jul 7, 2017
104
146
113
My apologies for starting a chain thread here (I'm not looking to start a chain debate) but I stumbled on a thread in the Equipment forum that has been discussing changes in the Alpine Resorts (Management) Regulations 2020 made in November last year with regards to chains (https://www.ski.com.au/xf/threads/snow-chains-for-disco-sport-my17.90021/#post-4743733)

It seems there is some uncertainty about whether K Summits comply. We're booked for Falls in August and I own K Summits (vehicle has clearance issues and a second set of wheels is hard to justify for 1-week a year).

I just wanted to ask if any of the wise heads in here know the actual status of K Summits at Falls this year (or could find out from someone of authority on the matter).

My apologies if this brings out the usual suspects - having to work out a new solution with just on a month to go isn't ideal though and the Falls website provides no guidance unfortunately.

Any information would be much appreciated.

Thanks
 
  • Like
Reactions: crackson

snow drive solutions

One of Us
Ski Pass
Nov 26, 2019
120
280
163
MELBOURNE
www.snowdrivesolutions.com.au
These images will help to illustrate why Konig K-Summit spider chains, which are not a diamond pattern wheel chain, are are not permitted at Mt Hotham and why they do not comply with the wheel chain definition Alpine Resorts (Management) Regulations 2020 which is applicable for all resort areas from November 2020

Konig K-Summit spider chains do not comply with the new Alpine Resorts Regulations definition - "wheel chains mean devices made up of chains in a diamond pattern that are designed to be fitted to wheels of a motor vehicle to increase the directional stability and traction of the wheels of that vehicle on a road affected by snow or ice."

I don't see how Falls Creek RMB, or Victorian Police, could 'over ride' the Alpine Resorts (Management) Regulations 2020 wheel chain definition without there being a published & documented change to the Regulation that is applicable for all resort areas from November 2020


The Konig K-Summit spring loaded adjuster bolt assembly is used to reduce the overall diameter of the chain mesh to suit the diameter of the tyre that is fitted to the vehicle and to compensate for chain wear. It does not make the K-Summit "ladder" chain a diamond pattern wheel chain.

This Konig K-Summit wheel chain, size XXL, is shown fitted to 275/40 R20 Volvo XC90 summer tyre - note the chain is not central to the tyre tread. Volvo do not approve this type of wheel chain to this tyre size.

img_1868-png-png.png





Konig K-Summit wheel chain fitted to wide summer tyre shows more than half of the tyre tread uncovered by the
‘ladder mesh' of the K-Summit chain.

1624175943673-png-png.png
 

burchie

Hard Yards
Jul 12, 2018
24
26
68
It seems there is some uncertainty about whether K Summits comply. We're booked for Falls in August and I own K Summits (vehicle has clearance issues and a second set of wheels is hard to justify for 1-week a year).

I just wanted to ask if any of the wise heads in here know the actual status of K Summits at Falls this year (or could find out from someone of authority on the matter).
I am in exactly the same situation, only I am going next week! Already paid resort entry etc. I think I saw in the other thread you have contacted Falls Creek Resort Management. I did the same. I won’t quote them, but I got an honest and timely response.

Essentially they shared the same issues that were posted above about poor fitting and performance. But just said they weren’t recommended. They did say they will be considering a ban for next season.
 

Every2years

Addicted
Jul 7, 2017
104
146
113
I just received a reply from Falls. Their service is always great.

Their response was that the K summits are no longer compliant. My solution will not include purchasing snow tyres that is absolutely certain.

I'm lucky I stumbled on this. Maybe Falls could help their customers by making it clearer on their website that there has been a recent change?

I would have happily headed up with what had been a compliant product at Falls. Would hate for someone doing the same to get a fine.
 

Tom from Melbourne

One of Us
Ski Pass
Dec 30, 2017
381
774
263
There are also number of services up mountain from Mt Beauty, and depending on your stay length the private transfer return can be comparable with resort parking fees - and removes a heap of hassel parking car and fitting chains (if required) for a quick transfer of peeps and luggage at mount beauty.

Might still suck not being to use your existing chains, but at least there is a better alternative than snow tyres or new chains (and assuming that any chains that would fit will be hard to rent... more than a few people get caught out!).
 

Every2years

Addicted
Jul 7, 2017
104
146
113
There are also number of services up mountain from Mt Beauty, and depending on your stay length the private transfer return can be comparable with resort parking fees - and removes a heap of hassel parking car and fitting chains (if required) for a quick transfer of peeps and luggage at mount beauty.

Might still suck not being to use your existing chains, but at least there is a better alternative than snow tyres or new chains (and assuming that any chains that would fit will be hard to rent... more than a few people get caught out!).
Thanks for the suggestion. Think I have found a legal solution that I am happy with.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tom from Melbourne

burchie

Hard Yards
Jul 12, 2018
24
26
68
I just received a reply from Falls. Their service is always great.

Their response was that the K summits are no longer compliant. My solution will not include purchasing snow tyres that is absolutely certain.
That is interesting compared to what I was told on Friday. Good luck with the trip and the solution you found. I am still looking at options but only have a couple of days. That said, I may not get across the border depending what happens with COVID.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Every2years

rowdyflat

A Local
Ski Pass
Jun 21, 2003
5,071
7,578
563
67
Yackandandah NE Victoria
My apologies if this brings out the usual suspects
IMO you are making a rod for your own back by enquiring .
Yes the usual suspects and people who love a nannystate will make you shit your pants but Falls is a benign road .
I have been up the road about 600 + times and have used chains about once for a subaru.
so if you own some sort of 4WD you are unlikely to need to worry barring a Japanese type dump.
 
Remove ads with a
Ski Pass

teckel

Pool Room
Ski Pass
Oct 16, 2004
51,020
25,591
1,515
Narbethong, Vic
www.mysticmountainsskihire.com.au
I just received a reply from Falls. Their service is always great.

Their response was that the K summits are no longer compliant. My solution will not include purchasing snow tyres that is absolutely certain.
Snow tyres are not a solution anyway. You still have to have chains even with snow tyres.
One solution may be to get a set of cheap rims with summer tyres that you can fit chains to. Put em on for winter, and keep your hot looking wheels for summer.
 

Every2years

Addicted
Jul 7, 2017
104
146
113
IMO you are making a rod for your own back by enquiring .
Yes the usual suspects and people who love a nannystate will make you shit your pants but Falls is a benign road .
I have been up the road about 600 + times and have used chains about once for a subaru.
so if you own some sort of 4WD you are unlikely to need to worry barring a Japanese type dump.
Yep. I just wanted to enquire as the wording in the Vic regulation is a little ambiguous (unlike the Hotham wording which is clear) and someone in the other thread had received unclear advice about the current status of k summits - hence asking those who know Falls the best .

Have been to Falls quite a few times and love the place (great with a young family). Agree that the road is benign. Nothing daunting about that road. I would be more than happy to fit the k summits if chains were needed on AWDs (and have once) - if they were legal.

I just didn't want to get a fine because of a stupid reg change but also didnt want to waste money on another solution if I didn't actually have to (when the k summits are perfectly functional and accepted all over the world). Only going once a year for one week makes the odds of even having to fit to an AWD so low which makes this decision all the more irritating - nanny state as you say (with some vested encouragement maybe?). I'll go and waste some money to comply and enjoy Falls when we get there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: burchie

nezumi

One of Us
Ski Pass
May 28, 2009
2,217
3,212
363
Melbourne
Yep. I just wanted to enquire as the wording in the Vic regulation is a little ambiguous (unlike the Hotham wording which is clear) and someone in the other thread had received unclear advice about the current status of k summits - hence asking those who know Falls the best .

Have been to Falls quite a few times and love the place (great with a young family). Agree that the road is benign. Nothing daunting about that road. I would be more than happy to fit the k summits if chains were needed on AWDs (and have once) - if they were legal.

I just didn't want to get a fine because of a stupid reg change but also didnt want to waste money on another solution if I didn't actually have to (when the k summits are perfectly functional and accepted all over the world). Only going once a year for one week makes the odds of even having to fit to an AWD so low which makes this decision all the more irritating - nanny state as you say (with some vested encouragement maybe?). I'll go and waste some money to comply and enjoy Falls when we get there.

What part of the regulation do you think is ambiguous?

Alpine Resorts (Management) Regulations 2020 said:
wheel chains mean devices made up of chains in a diamond pattern that are designed to be fitted to wheels of a motor vehicle to increase the directional stability and traction of the wheels of that vehicle on a road affected by snow or ice.

 

Every2years

Addicted
Jul 7, 2017
104
146
113
IMO you are making a rod for your own back by enquiring .
Yes the usual suspects and people who love a nannystate will make you shit your pants but Falls is a benign road .
I have been up the road about 600 + times and have used chains about once for a subaru.
so if you own some sort of 4WD you are unlikely to need to worry barring a Japanese type dump.
Yep. I just wanted to enquire as the wording in the Vic regulation is a little ambiguous (unlike the Hotham wording which is clear) and someone in the other thread had received unclear advice about the current status of k summits - hence asking those who know Falls the best .

Have been to Falls quite a few times and love the place (great with a young family). Agree that the road is benign. Nothing daunting about that road. I would be more than happy to fit the k summits if chains were needed on AWDs (and have once) - if they were legal.

I just didn't want to get a fine because of a stupid reg change but also didnt want to waste money on another solution if I didn't actually have to (when the k summits are perfectly functional and accepted all over the world). Only going once a year for one week makes the odds of even having to fit to an AWD so low which makes this decision all the more irritating - nanny state as you say (with some vested encouragement maybe?). I'll go and waste some money to comply and enjoy Falls when we get there.
 

crackson

Part of the Furniture
Ski Pass
Oct 20, 2006
12,788
12,987
813
The reg is about banning ladder chains for failing to provide continuous contact. Spider chains have that provide continuous contact have been caught up in the ban. They were previously tolerated but now not tolerated under the same reg after individual clarification by resorts.

Typical Victorian bs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Every2years

Every2years

Addicted
Jul 7, 2017
104
146
113
The k summits do include sections that have a diamond shape pattern and equating them with old school ladders is disingenuous. Interestingly the Hotham website clearly says that the chain must grip both sides of the tyre. That unambiguously rules out k summits. The Vic regulation doesn't include that wording and it could be argued that K summits do include a diamond pattern in their chain section and therefore technically comply with the regulation as written. Diamond is not defined. The fact that the reg doesn't specify gripping both sides of the tyre had me hoping they were only expressly banning ladder chains and still permitting k summits (which I believe would be sensible but....)

Seriously, banning k summits (which are ggreat when fitted properly - poor fitting applies to any chain) on an AWD on the Falls road. Talk about nanny state.

I have emailed VicRoads just to check. The Hotham wording has been in place for a long time so they had that available when drafting this update - either they were sloppy with the wording of the regulation or the wording is intended to ban ladders but still allow k summits. That a resort has given different advice to different customers suggests clarification is needed. Freely admit I have a biased position on this.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: currawong

crackson

Part of the Furniture
Ski Pass
Oct 20, 2006
12,788
12,987
813
Only a victorian could write an ambiguous rule that requires constant clarification by third parties then have a whinge everytime somebody asks for clarification.

Stupid vague rule written by stupid vague people.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Every2years

Every2years

Addicted
Jul 7, 2017
104
146
113
Only a NSWman could look for loopholes in something that's black&white.
I'm really just hoping for some sense. Ban old school ladders sure but permit ksummits that provide continuous chain contact and are allowed around the world (accepting that Hotham has its own rule). Regulation based on function.
 

Hermannator

One of Us
Ski Pass
Jul 9, 2010
3,001
2,292
363
The 'Gul
Snow tyres are not a solution anyway. You still have to have chains even with snow tyres.
One solution may be to get a set of cheap rims with summer tyres that you can fit chains to. Put em on for winter, and keep your hot looking wheels for summer.
Can't stress the cheap wheels solution enough. $200 buys you a set of wheels and tyres on scumtree/marketplace. If you choose well, the tyres will be in good nick because the seller just had to have 22"s...

Edit: Always look at the year on the tyres:
1626045231193.png


In the picture, the tyre was manufactured in the 38th week of 2005. You want <= 5 yo ideally
 

Every2years

Addicted
Jul 7, 2017
104
146
113
Can't stress the cheap wheels solution enough. $200 buys you a set of wheels and tyres on scumtree/marketplace. If you choose well, the tyres will be in good nick because the seller just had to have 22"s...

Edit: Always look at the year on the tyres:
1626045231193.png


In the picture, the tyre was manufactured in the 38th week of 2005. You want <= 5 yo ideally
Thanks for the constructive advice - appreciate it.

Yeah I might do but that solution does feel a bit perverse in some ways. Drive a long distance on cheap wheels and tyres for the low possibility of needing to fit chains to an AWD for a short section of a tame road when the alternative, which has been perfectly fine until, now was to drive on quality wheels and tyres and then properly fit appropriately sized and perfectly safe and functional K-summits if needed.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: burchie

djam

One of Us
Apr 6, 2009
1,544
784
363
go with the k summits, you should be fine. It IS ladder chains they are aiming to remove, and the k summits are not ladder chains.

Talking to Vic Roads is close to useless, they in fact talk to the resorts to make the rules, and their communication with the resorts is well less then perfect. I heard both sides of parts of the conversations and they don't align at all. One says one thing and the other heard something else. It would be better if some Alpine body made the rules, maybe a task for ARV once it is up and running.
 

Hermannator

One of Us
Ski Pass
Jul 9, 2010
3,001
2,292
363
The 'Gul
Thanks for the constructive advice - appreciate it.

Yeah I might do but that solution does feel a bit perverse in some ways. Drive a long distance on cheap wheels and tyres for the low possibility of needing to fit chains to an AWD for a short section of a tame road when the alternative, which has been perfectly fine until, now was to drive on quality wheels and tyres and then properly fit appropriately sized and perfectly safe and functional K-summits if needed.
I hear you.
 
Remove ads with a
Ski Pass

Log in

or Log in using
Remove ads with a
Ski Pass