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‘Falls to Hotham Alpine Crossing’ upgrade

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by Cam Walker, Dec 3, 2013.

  1. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    We finally got Table 18 into Horse Yards..Don't know that it looks Iconic but it is low key infrastructure and is practical..other photos are available over at the Access Thread...all has gone quiet in this thread of late..as horse yard campsite is very unique we have no plans to crowd it with more picnic tables :hopefully those on the lower end of the socioeconomic like Team Bears will use this :definitely no permits required to use our tables at any time..please share it with anybody that comes particularly those travelling on foot with packs...and those traveling with commercial operators/guides should remember this table is for the common man not for the elite traveller..:whistle:
     
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  2. ladycamper

    ladycamper One of Us

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    Tables are great when walking and camping at sites with no hut, as they are comfy to sit at after a hard day out.
     
  3. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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  4. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Please don't show the high paying tourists pics of 2013 ...please don't tell them Hotham has no proper Fire Refuges...can u always rely on a helicopter to get u off those heavily wooded steep ridges....:p:p:p
    can u expect the Courts to wave responsibility of the State Govt. and its agents should tragedy strike..????? Have our skilled consultants factored in the costs of necessary fire refuges to make this a safe project and one that won't bite the tax payers butts at a future date.. Bears very curious as to how u get around building temporary structures for guests that don't conform to current laws for structures in fire prone areas..:whistle::whistle::whistle:
     
    #954 Ubiquitous Steve, Feb 16, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  5. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    I sleep on top of them a lot...tops are stronger than the seats...hopefully the one in the Diamantina Horse Yards which is most definitely inside the ANP boundary has been well received and is not seen as a threat to management plans...
     
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  6. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    That 2013 fire was not long ago really and man did it go....high end punters could be in for the time of their lives.what photo opportunities could be in store for those sleeping high up at the top of Diamantina Spur..
     
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  7. Mister Tee on XC Skis

    Mister Tee on XC Skis A Local Ski Pass: Gold Ski Pass: Silver

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    I mentioned the 2013 fires in my submission to PV . The cost of fire bunkers that would be unobtrusive the way the dunnies at Rawson's Pass in the KNP are and which must also be snow drift proof would be very expensive . It has not been factored into the FHAC DMP at all.
     
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  8. Mister Tee on XC Skis

    Mister Tee on XC Skis A Local Ski Pass: Gold Ski Pass: Silver

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    The word ELITE means excellent.It has become a pejorative term but I encourage excellence in every endevour.
     
  9. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    I cannot see that Parks Vic and Vic Govt. can argue in a possible court case that they have no liability and it is born only
    by the commercial operator...both Parks Vic and Vic Govt have their names on this draft proposal and no doubt in brochures that promote this "Iconic Walk" Individuals would seem different in this context as they take on the hazards being well aware of the consequences of hazards/injuries.
    This is promoted by the State of Vic and its agents so I would feel they have greater responsibility for ensuring the welfare of their charges. So if they want to place accomodation in a fire prone environment then they should be made to undertake the necessary safeguards in regards to building construction:which would mean permant huts of approved building materials.
    Let them deal with the economics of this properly...the tax payers should not be placed at risk by possible negligence cases brought before our courts.
     
  10. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here Ski Pass: Gold

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    (Except spelling?)
     
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  11. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Crap
     
  12. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Well that is a succinct response..:p

    Also I don't think that a proposal that excludes horse parties from being able to access the high plains from the West Kiewa past Weston's and on to Tawonga Huts is going to go down very well with out fierce opposition from Mt.Cattlemen and Horse riders and their commercial entities.

    Hopefully our comrades on steeds carry enough clout in local and state politics to shaft these proposals without too much trouble.

    It would be an advantage to campaign together with Horserider groups to bring down this ill conceived circus plan by the captains of big business who are only concerned with prospering at the expense of the environment and the ability of common folk to access this area without legal or financial constraints.
     
  13. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Perhaps Team Bears could utilise Charlie's talents to spell check the above.
    and we wait for legs to embrace our post perhaps with an emoji like :gives:.

    :sleep:
     
  14. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    And if your not safe in the Hotham Village during an on going fire in the area you are fool hardy to be any where else in a very fire prone area.See if u can market that in a positive light...
     
  15. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Good argument for banning everyone from the park all the time.
     
  16. Jellybeans

    Jellybeans not woke enough Ski Pass: Gold

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    Fire risk is the responsibility of the person in the park, not Parks Victoria.
    Poor argument.
     
  17. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here Ski Pass: Gold

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    Spelling's good, as is the content!
    Love your work Steve!
    :thumbs:
     
  18. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    We beg to differ...u promote a walk then u accept the responsibilities for all likely events that may unfold...commercial operators must be able to show that they can take appropriate action to mitigate the affects of such an event.
    Parks are endorsing this walk so they are also bound to provide a safe environment should a wild fire occur ...so parties can be extracted or moved to a shelter at short notice.
    Ken Harris had a fire refuge so the safety of his personnel plus helipad and communication facilities for the extraction of injured staff if required.
    So one expects the same to be offered by commercial operators with help by Parks Vic.

    So if lightening strikes were to occur in the area of either Weston's Hut or new proposed Hut at the top of the Diamantina Ridge line u will be cactus very quickly unless either u get extracted or u have some where to shelter..

    So have the economics of helipads and there maintenance been taken into account...also helicopters r gonna gave difficulty doing any extraction of personnel under strong winds in dangerous downdraft situations in the dark.
    So this necessitates a permanent refuge ....these have not been accounted for in the dodgy management drafts presented.

    The possibilities of fast moving fires present themselves every summer up in this area...the frequency of large fast moving fires in this area cannot be ignored...Weston's was nearly burnt several years ago after such a fire then behold a couple of years later it was burnt to the ground.....then history shows that in 2013 another fire started near Harrietteville after lightening strike and then developed into a monster fire.

    Given the right conditions that occur in regular sequence up there it is possible for fires to spread extremely quickly on those spurs and ridge lines making it impossible to out run them towards either Pretty Valley or Hotham Village..in which case the result would be tragic....even campers at Cleve Cole Hut were not considered safe during one of these fire events and were moved on by police helicopter because of their concerns... if u ain't safe at C.C.during a fire scenario think what it would be like in temporary accomodation set up on top of the Diamantina Ridgeline..a fire originating at the bottom of Diamantina Spur or some where along that ridge would travel at a such a speed uphill that it would impact in less than half an hour...
     
    #968 Ubiquitous Steve, Feb 19, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2017
  19. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Crap
     
  20. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    It is most certainly the responsibility of Parks Vic and all Vic Govt Depts. to advise of this fire risk presented to walkers and to have plans and installations to mitigate its impact.

    If depts promote this walk then they must undertake the necessary risk management activities.They must advise of the possible risk and take necessary works to deal with such a risk.

    Consultants talking up the nos of likely punters using this Iconic Walk.....maybe better deal with the liability issues arising....put down the likely costs on paper....
     
  21. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Crap
     
  22. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    :crap:legs wos(Charlie) happening....can we expand on the 4 letter retort..?:whistle::whistle::whistle::whistle:
     
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  23. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    OK. Your post is crap.
     
  24. Jellybeans

    Jellybeans not woke enough Ski Pass: Gold

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    Key word is 'advise'. Of course they have to advise you, why would there be so many advert campaigns for bushfires otherwise. But they don't have liability because you make the ultimate decision. The state can't accept a person's inability to understand safety warnings as a valid reason for compensation. It isn't fair.
     
  25. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator

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    Commercial Outdoor tours without Risk Management Legs? Um what century are you living in ?
     
  26. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    And since Helipads are to be considered in this draft proposal for the Diamantina Upper ridge set up....there will be certain requirements by civil aviation dept. it would seem that a lot of snow gums are goanna get the chop even though our stalwarts of Business Brett and Geoff r claiming to have such respect for all environmental considerations. Possibly our flying friends of forum can tell us of the requirements for helipads constructed in 2017 ....bit hard to blend a helipad up there with the existing scrubbery....if fact walkers will probably have to march right over it as they travel further...
     
    #976 Ubiquitous Steve, Feb 19, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2017
  27. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Our well heeled Chinese tourists may well avail them selves of the Iconic Walk but may not have any idea of potential fire hazards....they may not even understand what a TFB.means!
    If a State Govt and its agencies promote this walk then they have a legal requirement to consider the safety of those engaged.
    So not only would u be required by law to communicate that with your walking clients u have the responsibility for their safety for all possible hazards that can be foreseen....wild fire in this area is a threat present every summer and must have a coherent policy.Parks cannot dismiss their responsibility for this issue either...
    U open a track with markers and signs.....u cause the walker nos to expand and u do the necessary works to minimise foreseen hazard.
    I think that is the way the courts will see it....
    :thumbs:
     
  28. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    It is not the land manager who has the responsibility to perform risk management. It is the tour operator.

    The idea that the land manager may be liable remains crap.
     
  29. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here Ski Pass: Gold

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    You've been doing so well Steve....
    In your previous post, the word you were seeking is lightning, not lightening
    But as before, I agree with your sentiments!
     
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  30. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator

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    Check the Code of Practices For Bushfire Management On Public Lands-2012. You may interpret it obscurely but the man holding the gavel wont.
     
  31. neilmny

    neilmny One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    So if it's not the land managers responsibility why is that walking tracks are closed when they are in poor condition or blocked by windfall? The parks close on a code red day? ............. This is owing to the liability of the land manager, Parks Victoria.
     
  32. Jellybeans

    Jellybeans not woke enough Ski Pass: Gold

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    This is really just advice, you can go into a park whenever you like, it's public land. What Parks Victoria can do is limit access on an unsafe day like Code Red day. The Land manager's responsibility is the general public safety and Your responsibility is keeping you and your family safe, not Parks Victoria.
     
  33. Mister Tee on XC Skis

    Mister Tee on XC Skis A Local Ski Pass: Gold Ski Pass: Silver

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    I stick with the ye olde UK spellings of everything. I have a declivity towards spellings and usages of USA English.
     
  34. Mister Tee on XC Skis

    Mister Tee on XC Skis A Local Ski Pass: Gold Ski Pass: Silver

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    Chinese tourists are not interested in the Oz Alps. That is my impression. The target market for this pile of fertilizer of a DMP for the FHAC would be the 'do it once and then go back to the TV with KFC and a VB ' crowd. The Overland track has a huge waiting list , many of whom would not be regular bush walkers or B.C. snow sports addicts anywhere else. It is like doing the Kokoda trail. You can brag to your mates who never walk anywhere " Look what I did, I am the real deal , Bear Gryllis stand aside etc. ! ".
    Anyway aside from Bush fire risks, taking cashed up newbies UP the Diamantina spur is iffy full stop.It is tough for regular and fit outdoorsy people. For cashed up newbies esp. in cold , windy , wet/snowy weather it could end in tears.
     
  35. mr

    mr Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yep i agree....... the guy and his partner i knew who got fried up on Lake Mountain on Black Saturday (ok, pre 2012) were in the the Coroner's report deemed to have made a error of judgement
     
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  36. Jellybeans

    Jellybeans not woke enough Ski Pass: Gold

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    I am very doubtful this is marketed to CUBs, more to the Everyday city living person. There is no bragging amongst most bush walkers. You are making very inaccurate generalisations. You can't decide who does a walk or not. Like I said, it is the person's choice and with a guide, they can explore the wonders of the park like us.
     
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  37. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    If u promote a walking track to the nation and market it for an overseas market...:emoji_full_moon:.and that track is in a fire prone area and has no provision for protecting lives from such a fire...and if u conduct those walks in the prime fire season which is most probably what is planned....the Authorities will still assume liability for permitting such commercial operators to operate when they had sound knowledge that it was ill advised or dangerous to do so.
    U put conditions and works to reduce that risk then your liability may be greatly reduced....

    Parks Vic and the NE Tourism Dept have their names appearing on these i glossy brochures.....they are liable if they neglect to do their duty of care in regard to fire risk prevention...having encouraged these folk to participate in such an event.
    So let's see Brett & Geoff factoring in costs involved to conduct this walk in a proper fashion.....
    This project has the potential to deplete what ever funds Parks Vic have to conduct their activities...and the returns are more than questionable to the public...this will divert scarse funds into a White Elephant :emoji_penguin:Project..
     
  38. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here Ski Pass: Gold

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    Really??????
     
  39. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here Ski Pass: Gold

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    I agree with that, but a tour operator encouraging customers into a dangerous situation is a different thing altogether!
     
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  40. mr

    mr Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Which is why they would be held responsible. Back to Legs'point.
     
  41. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator

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    The DELWP is responsible for managing bushfire risk on public land - providing proof of continually improving their planning process is a requirement. This includes constantly reviewed risk management assesments. Parks Vic is under their umbrella. DELWP first objective is to minimise the impact of major bushfires on human life. A generalisation but thats where one often strikes a non conformance when the shit hits the fan. Litigators and coroners look for the weakest link and there is certainly potential for it in this case..
     
  42. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    I bet that there is no difference between management generally and management where a concession is granted.
     
  43. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Lot of ifs there. Otherwise, crap.
     
  44. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator

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    Does it matter either way ? A lack in performance is a lack in performance.
     
  45. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Of course it doesn't matter either way. Perhaps you could explain that to Ubiquitous Steve?
     
  46. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator

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    Hehe.:whistle:
     
  47. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Ifs ?
    Yeah the big if is whether this Iconic Walk Project ever gets any :crap:legs:thumbs: and gets off the ground?

    The next big if.?

    Will professional Parks Vic Staff in districts buckle and take any part in this exercise of stupidity...

    Cos some how I think it ain't going down to well with the Staff...?

    But certIainly ain't no ifs as to whether these idiot draft proposals are costing us the tax payers thousands of dollars.?

    But no ifs as to the consortium making a financial killing in regard for preparing these MD.proposals.??

    Seems to be talk of low Staff moral with Parks Vic and possibly we may see many professional staff seeking alternative employments as they become tired of crazy ideas coming from Head Office
    And what of the rift emerging between VNPA and Parks Vic?.
    Perhaps(that is like an if) a management reshuffle will unfold within Parks Vic.any time soon.
    Oh the tensions that Cpts.of enterprise have unleashed....Team Bears want the details of a good tailor like Geoff and his sidekick Brett so they can walk the walk and talk the concern of the environment..
     
    #996 Ubiquitous Steve, Feb 19, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2017
  48. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    A few more ifs.
     
  49. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    For our interest where did they unfortunates perish,was it in the Lake Mt Carpark area.....?
    A few years ago red dog and myself went on a trip to the top of Mt Strickland near by :it had a fire refuge which was probably many years old but was still functional...there was nothing else up there but the one thing necessary to sustain life should a wildfire pass over and u were trapped there..
    yet everybody goes to Lake Mt over summer yet to my knowledge it still has no fire refuge....wonder coroner did not remark on such a thing.

    One certainly has to make personal call on risks but then we had that Black Sat. Fire and over the years we had grown so confident in our abilities to detect and suppress fires that fire refuges were no longer considered at all.

    And now we see that many lives would have been saved if some refuges had been located in a neighbourhood in which there location was common knowledge.
    So the DSE now understands the importance of totally defensible structures or fire dugouts and if they are not provided in areas that may be popular for tourists in locations that fleeing is impractical they probably will have failed in their primary role of preserving life as the most important role in a fire season.
     
  50. Jellybeans

    Jellybeans not woke enough Ski Pass: Gold

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    Or you can heed the fire warnings published everywhere!
     
  51. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Team Bears will reply for Legs Akimbo:"Crap" and expanding in to a complete retort "That is crap".:crap:

    So no need for legs to reply now...Bears have done it for him...:p:p
    His energies are saved for more important replies in the forum...:thumbs: