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Advice needed First time I've worked on pre-season fitness

Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by sly_karma, Aug 19, 2019.

  1. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Triglycerides (blood sugars) are now bad ? Atkins bragged about triglyceride level reduction
    Fats are not upped, they are reduced due to lower total food consumption.
    One slice of high class bread per day is okay on Maintenance..
     
  2. sly_karma

    sly_karma Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Fibre, I'm not sure. On one hand, all the fibre in grains is gone from my diet, but OTOH I do put away a fair bit of salad and veges. Not sure whether or not it evens out longterm. Maybe I can pull some data from Carb Manager.
     
  3. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    I once did a Bogong on Low Carb.
    Atkins stole from Lelord Kordell, who spent a year in jail (1971) for making "false" claims about cancer.
    Hollywood loved him, but he originally touted lowcarb as an "oldfolks diet", for when you don't exercise extensively anymore.
     
  4. sly_karma

    sly_karma Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Weight loss goal is about to be achieved. Now I need to figure out how to maintain without regaining it. Obviously I can't go back to the old "I never met a carbohydrate I didn't like" diet, but I suspect it will be quite tricky for me to find something in between.
     
  5. Roymond

    Roymond One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Have a look at Michael Mosley’s stuff. If you are really interested , he has an interview on the ABC’s ‘big ideas’ series of podcasts . The metabolic benefits of intermittent fasting ( be that as. 5/2 or 16 hrs fasting daily) seem real from a clinical point of view ( I’ve got several patients who have reversed their diabetes) and it makes biochemical
    sense.
    I’m not sure if you could make it work in the building industry but its worth considering.
     
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  6. sly_karma

    sly_karma Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I've been intermittent fasting several months now. For me that typically looks like breakfast at 530 or 6 am, full workday no lunch, workout at gym 430-6, eat dinner at 7. Has made it easy to stay in calorie deficit, hence the weight loss. I guess i could start eating lunch again, but stay away from the carbs.
     
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  7. Roymond

    Roymond One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Most people find that once they get to their target weight, their metabolic set point adjusts to maintain that, so keeping on your current plan, if it sustainable is perfect. The trick is to not be one of the 70% who slowly trickle back up to their previous weight.
     
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  8. sly_karma

    sly_karma Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I can't bear the thought of going back to that unhappy place I was in. My much improved agility and freedom of movement make me smile to myself a dozen times a day, a constant reminder of how far I'd let things go. Only time will tell, but I feel like I've given myself extra years of quality of life, with pretty much every metric in the green now. If the holistic types are right, getting away from the sugars and processed foods has greatly reduced risk of chronic illness as well. Eat real food FTW!
     
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  9. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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    Congratulations on your escape from the world of the flavourizer and colouriser.
     
  10. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    I've said a few times to friends, that you could pretty much classify refined sugar as a long acting toxin, from the human body POV.
     
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  11. MarzNC

    MarzNC One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Although eating two meals a day in that fashion may sound like "fasting," it doesn't include a long enough fasting period for your body to switch gears. Note that 8-16 means going for 16 hours without eating, or drinking anything with sugar content or a sweet taste. Dr. Moseley's 5-2 approach would seem to be easier to implement given your work schedule.

    If you take a look at the early chapter by Jimmy Moore in the book "The Complete Guide to Fasting" that he co-wrote with Dr. Jason Fung, he describes how many experiments he did before figuring out what type of fasting worked for him. Apparently he is well known in the keto world. The second part of the book goes in to assorted ways that IF can be done.

     
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  12. teleroo

    teleroo still looking for Thredbo in the Park Ski Pass: Gold

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    Good news to report from me for my pre-Xmas report back. I've been doing the 600 cal/day fasting two days per week since 05 Nov. I've met my phase 1 target of 95 kg (confirmed with two separate weigh ins) so that's 6 kg weight loss from 101kg starting weight over roughly six weeks, and waist 110 to 104cm. 90 kg will be the ski season target.

     
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  13. person s

    person s Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I couldn’t imagine not eating lunch
    muesli + nuts + seeds for brekky around 7am depending on my exercise routine
    so by the time I get to lunch around 12:30, I really need it
    everyone at work knows that I will decline all 12 midday meeting appointments because we have too many meetings already and people tend to bang on endlessly
    dinner is better as snack size for me
     
  14. MarzNC

    MarzNC One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Decreasing waist size is a good indicator that a fasting approach is working. My weight only fluctuates 1-2 pounds, but I can feel the difference in pants with a belt without having to weigh myself.

    One of the issues that I learned about researching IF in the last couple years was "fatty liver." Someone with a big "belly" is likely to have a fatty liver, which can lead to more than one increasingly common medical problem for older adults.

    Fatty Liver: What It Is, and How to Get Rid of It
    https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/fatty-liver#section2

    "Fatty liver disease is becoming increasingly common in many parts of the world, affecting about 25% of people globally (1).

    It is linked to obesity, type 2 diabetes and other disorders characterized by insulin resistance."


     
    #164 MarzNC, Dec 21, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2019
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  15. sly_karma

    sly_karma Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Six months ago I couldn't have imagined missing lunch either, I'd be climbing the walls by 2 pm if I hadn't eaten. That's the carb cycle for you, the body is used to getting its energy in small, frequent hits of carb. When we give it a larger quantity, it uses what it can and converts the rest to fat. It's analogous to trying to keep a wood stove going just using paper and kindling; even when a piece of log becomes available, it is just stacked next to the fireplace. I've more or less stopped giving my 'wood stove' paper or kindling, the fats are like logs that burn longer and need less replenishment. The trick is to carefully restrict the log supply (calorie restriction) so that the fireplace also burns some of the logs that were stacked earlier.

    @MarzNC is probably right that my skipped lunch is not the same as skipping breakfast, but to me it is a clear indication that I'm solidly fat adapted, and it's also a simple way to stay within my 2100 calorie daily target. I'm impressed with the freedom from food cravings/obsession. Skipping a meal for me in the past was about as optional as skipping breathing.

    The results have been solid for me, 20 cm/8" off the waist. I have caliper testing every 6 weeks at the gym, and by far the greatest loss area for body fat has been from the belly. Overall I've dropped from 40% BF to 25% currently. The big surprise is no skin pouch so far, I thought my 56 year old skin wouldn't be sufficiently elastic to recover, but it seems to be doing so. I guess the 200 crunches a day is helping.

    First day of skiing today, and it's a 25 cm pow day as well. I'm about to find out if all this effort has been worth it.
     
  16. sly_karma

    sly_karma Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I skied 9-12, stopped for coffee and then other stuff like housekeeping and socializing intervened, I didn't go back out again. Great responses from legs, apart from the very first run when I unexpectedly encountered moguls where none normally exist. First turns of the year and in wet snow random bumps, I kept getting in the back seat so of course the quads did work they shouldn't have to. Moved to groomers and spent the rest of the session reinforcing the feeling of standing on the middle of the ski, legs felt great. Kept finding myself skiing faster and more aggressively than I should have for first turns of the season.
     
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  17. sly_karma

    sly_karma Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Got a few days in my legs now. None of them were very strenuous until NYE at SP, 30 cm of warm and wet overnight and another 20 cm through the day. The odd combination had everyone struggling and I found myself getting pitched and in the back seat a lot. That meant way too much load on the quads despite constant recentering. And several times I got caught on slopes with insufficient pitch and the skis just buried deep, much effort to walk out or muscle the skis to the surface. Overall I was happy with my stamina and was able to ski to last chair including a good lunch break. No sore muscles the following day and no sign of an energy lapse that might have forced me into eating carbs.
     
  18. Beerman

    Beerman One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Was good to ski with you and share a few stories, good to see the legs worked as you needed.
    If it helps, I didn’t spot any back seat skiing :thumbs:
     
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  19. sly_karma

    sly_karma Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Well I hit my target weight this week.
    Start weight 248 lb/112.5 kg
    Current weight 198 lb/89.8 kg

    The keto way of eating has been instrumental in this journey. More than half of the weight loss took place in the first three month - before starting gym work. No way that 3 gym sessions a week would have done it, but I'm sure the gym helped improve my skiing. Blood work shows my cholesterol lowered rather than raised by a diet of 65-70% fats. No supplements, MCT oil or 'health shakes' consumed during this time, just real food. No money spent on meal plans or online subscription or coaches either. The only dollars spent on these changes in health were a somewhat higher meat bill and a gym membership that is working out to about $4 a visit. Mrs Sly didn't go keto and we worked out how to make it work without cooking separate meals. It doesnt have to be that hard!

    Now I have to figure out how to maintain and not regain. I'll stay keto for the most part, I'm gonna try upping my carbs to 50 g from the daily 27 g I've been at until now. TBH I like the food too much to quit. Great excuse to eat bacon, sausage, cheese, cream and steak.
     
  20. bawbawbel

    bawbawbel Easi Ski..... Ski Pass: Gold

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  21. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator

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    Have been a bit slack lately. Gone up to 68.6 kg.
     
  22. Jacko4650

    Jacko4650 One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    How is it tracking some 6 weeks later (and I suspect a lot of exercise)?
     
  23. sly_karma

    sly_karma Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Weight still coming off, the same pound a week it's been for months now. I'm giving myself the odd treat, like a sausage roll yesterday, and tracking it all carefully in the Carb Manager app. I need to figure out how to bring my calories up to 2500/day which is about the balance point for me and should stabilise weight. Seems likely I'll steady up at about 188 lb which will be roughly 20% body fat, pretty good for a guy in his late 50s.

    Skiing performance has been everything I'd hoped for. Adaptation to fat as an energy source has enabled me to ski all day without needing a noon meal if I so choose. Quite remarkable given how prone I was to bonking out on low sugar in the past. As a bonus, it seems I can have the occasional carb treat without feeling ill or bloated afterwards as some have reported. I guess I'm blessed with metabolic flexibility.

    Ripped it hard on some new snow with my son yesterday morning for 3 hours, then skied with my grandsons in the middle of the day (first time on skis for the younger one) and then caught the last 90 minutes of the day with longtime ski mates and was still solid at the end. Lost track of how many years it has since I could do a day like that. Feeling very blessed. Yesterday alone made the diet and gym time all worth it.
     
    #173 sly_karma, Jan 28, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  24. LMB

    LMB Old but definitely not Crusty! Ski Pass: Gold

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    That’s fantastic @sly_karma
     
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  25. 'H' Jones

    'H' Jones One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Sly, your journey is inspirational. Good for you.
    I am silently on a similiar path , 193cm and initially 113kgs, my highest ever :(
    Now 105 kgs 4 weeks later and heading the right way. Like you, calorie restriction, low carb, and fast from about 10pm until 1.30pm lunch of natural yoghurt and fruit. Running at the gym 3x weekly, all helping me toward hopefully the same results as you.

    Well done mate.
     
  26. Froff Life

    Froff Life A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    18kg loss in 4 weeks is pretty insane!
     
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  27. 'H' Jones

    'H' Jones One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    yikes, sorry , 105kgs now, 95kgs is the goal. See how I am fixated on it haha
     
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  28. Jacko4650

    Jacko4650 One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Even 8kg in 4 weeks is bloody good. I'm going to have to give this a whirl. Well done.
     
  29. teleroo

    teleroo still looking for Thredbo in the Park Ski Pass: Gold

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    Jacko, I've had good results as noted above with intermittent fasting. Cut down on carbs, increase fats (but since Nov am yet to check cholesterol levels, will wait until April maybe?) But my fast days look like:

    Breakfast (hang on until 9am): boiled egg, small tin of tuna in springwater.
    Lunch: Carrot, slice of cheddar cheese, 4 cherry tomatoes.
    Afternoon: one apple
    Dinner: Carrot, slice of cheddar cheese, 4 cherry tomatoes, boiled egg.
    Lots of green tea during the day to provide some sort of mouth flavour/distraction.
    Maybe an orange for desert for a bit of sweetness.

    1kg per week weight loss and about 1cm off the waist every 2-3 weeks.
     
  30. Sbooker

    Sbooker One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    That’s your entire days consumption?
     
  31. piolet

    piolet Better make it three Ski Pass: Gold

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    Looks like it, on fasting day
     
  32. teleroo

    teleroo still looking for Thredbo in the Park Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yes, doing it twice a week and will continue until reach desired weight, then probably drop back to once per week to maintain the additional benefits of intermittent fasting. Just weighed in 92.1 kg today, down from 101-102 kg at beginning of November.
     
  33. Sbooker

    Sbooker One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    I'd be climbing the walls and trying to take someone's head off if I was forced to live on that amount of food for a day - and I am only 72kg. Hats off to you!
     
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  34. Jacko4650

    Jacko4650 One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Gees: Is that for you or your rabbit? I'm not surprised you would lose a kilo a week. I was ready to give it a go anyway, but I don't like carrot, so that's the end of that. This keto thing sounds a bit more interesting . . . . . . . .
    PS: Nobody seems to mention how many beers or glasses of wine each day are OK?
    EDIT: Just noted this was your "Fasting Day" diet. Makes perfect sense now. Thank you.
     
  35. teleroo

    teleroo still looking for Thredbo in the Park Ski Pass: Gold

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    They were my thoughts exactly until I did it. But now I know it can be done. Similar to what Sly had written above about the mind games. What is strange is I'm tolerably hungry most of the day, but wake up in the morning after a fast day not really any hungrier than usual.

    And for Jacko, I don't drink booze that much, but enjoy the 1-3 beers I'd have a week now more because I know I've earnt them.

    Ps @Jacko4650 I'd like to get in touch with you about winter caravanning at Island Bend.
     
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  36. MarzNC

    MarzNC One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    That's how one method for intermittent fasting works for two non-consecutive days a week. It's called the "5 2 diet" and was what Dr. Moseley from the UK came up with after making a documentary for the BBC about fasting in general. There is a thread around here about it.

    https://www.ski.com.au/xf/threads/5-2-diet.75831/page-6#post-4101381

    @teleroo wrote up his experience pretty thoroughly in this thread in Post #138:
    https://www.ski.com.au/xf/threads/f...-pre-season-fitness.85626/page-3#post-4101217

    I put the basics of what I learned about 5 2 when researching intermittent fasting a few years ago into a blog post. The second video clip was done in Australia. I use another form of IF, which is called 16-8. For me that means not eating breakfast and delaying lunch so that I'm eating during an 8-hour window and fasting for 16 hours, including when I'm sleeping. It's a maintenance approach in terms of weight, with other health benefits long term. I never needed to lose more than a few pounds. I didn't change what I eat at all, only when. The adjustment period was on the order of a month.

    https://over50skifitness.blogspot.com/2018/09/intermittent-fasting-bbc-documentary.html
     
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  37. sly_karma

    sly_karma Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    My alcohol consumption definitely has gone down but I still like a beer or some wine. Typical dry wine is about 3 g carb per glass, not too hard to make that fit in carb budget. I found a really good craft brewed lager with only 1.5 g per can, full bodied too at 5% alcohol. Still it takes me a fortnight to go through a 6 pack, a lot down on before.

    My plan from the beginning was my way of eating had to be sustainable for my lifestyle and not disrupt our home life. Mrs Sly might have potatoes or rice, I just make a salad and we both have the same meat and vege items. As time has passed, I've almost completely dropped substitute foods like fake sugar, almond bread, keto treats etc. I've been calorie restricted this whole time but you wouldnt know it, my portions seem generous and certainly filling. Never felt hungry.

    I havent been chasing a target of x weight lost in y weeks, just been happy to see weight and waist disappearing. Measurements taken at the gym every 6 weeks have been very useful. Body fat has dropped from 40% to 24%, target now is 20%. Should achieve that about end of Feb, body weight will be ~ 188 lb/85 kg at that point. My weight work has been moderate weight/high reps to improve muscle stamina rather than increase muscle mass, so my lean body mass has been virtually static. My reading indicates body fat of 18-20% is optimum for 50+ yr old males (but the BMI charts still would have me as 'overweight' at 85 kg/178 cm).
     
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  38. sly_karma

    sly_karma Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Great to read of your success! Once you break through into an eating and exercise plan that works for you, and you see some early results, it just gets so much easier. For me, changing the way of eating was the key. Didn't attempt any exercise until 3 months in, and was nervous about it even then - hence this thread - but with eating figured out and some critical weight gone, exercise proved to be a welcome addition to my daily routine, not a torture to be endured en route to some dazzling goal.
     
  39. LMB

    LMB Old but definitely not Crusty! Ski Pass: Gold

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    How the other half live huh?!

    That would be similar to my daily intake with the odd hit out of dinner out or whatever. Not a “fast” day. I looked at the list and was surprised how much he could eat on a fast day.

    I’m eating a bit more than that as a rule at the moment because I’m snowboarding full days most days, but I’d estimate I’m consuming 1/10 to 1/20th of what the people I’m riding with are eating. Fuel efficient is me. Come a nuclear Winter I’ll outlive you all LOL
     
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  40. piolet

    piolet Better make it three Ski Pass: Gold

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    Nah we’ll eat you first
     
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  41. Jacko4650

    Jacko4650 One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    If you know how to PM me, I'm more than happy to share any info you need about winter at Island Bend. There is a small band of 'regulars' , all of whom are like me; 9 mths of planning what we can improve for next season!
     
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  42. sly_karma

    sly_karma Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I've reached 87 kg now for a total loss of 25 kg. Body fat is 20%, half what it was back in June and pretty healthy zone for a male in late 50s (although BMI chart says that at 178 cm tall I'm still well in the Overweight category).

    86-87 kg is the weight I plan to settle at longterm with a modified keto plan and continuing with the three weekly gym sessions. Still losing about 2 kg/month since I'm gonna indulge a little in Mexico in March, that will put some weight back on.
     
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  43. teleroo

    teleroo still looking for Thredbo in the Park Ski Pass: Gold

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    Teleroo went to the gym this week. Twice.
    First. Time. Ever.

    I'd always been a bit dismissive of the gym. But turns out to have some positives. Always just thought go for a run or swim or walk etc.

    But for me, the variety of equipment allows me to work around a knee injury. For example running trashes my knee, but turns out I can happily use one of the eliptical running machines. And when you're there, it's easy to focus on the job at hand, do the hour of exercise and be done with it.

    Waist now comfortably 101 cm. Many shorts now noticeably too loose around the waist.
     
  44. LMB

    LMB Old but definitely not Crusty! Ski Pass: Gold

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    Ha ha ha ha
    Welcome to the converted.

    I’ve just bought an elliptical for home - so I can use it daily - same reason, running and me are biomechanically incompatible with staying injury free, yet the elliptical allows for a similar training exercise.

    Don’t be afeared of the weights either - they do a lot of good!
     
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  45. iagreewithhim

    iagreewithhim One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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  46. 'H' Jones

    'H' Jones One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Well done Sly, awesome work !
     
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  47. sly_karma

    sly_karma Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Did the regular measurements last week, results were somewhat surprising. Although I continued to lose weight overall, my body fat went up slightly. This means I lost some lean muscle mass, 3 kg of it. Gym and eating haven't changed, so it is probably the skiing. I've been going pretty hard because the snow has been great and I feel so good. Trainer says that represents a lot of cardio work and my body has stripped off some mass to sustain itself. Measurements show an increase in size on my quads and minor reductions elsewhere. I hadn't changed my eating on ski days but I guess I have to consider some changes, up the calories on those days and probably include some carb for immediate energy so the body isn't forced to deplete muscle mass. @Sandy predicted this some time back. I was so proud of my new fat-adapted metabolism that didn't ask for food during the day, but it has cost me some lean mass.
     
  48. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    When I'm skiing, I eliminate most of my carb reduction. In fact, I make sure I eat more than usual at breakfast, consuming both high and lower GI carbs to make sure my muscles get enough glycogen. This is also important in the evening, to replenish glycogen that you've used during the day, for tomorrow's skiing.
    Also important is lean protein to enable you to build muscle.
    You don't want to be losing muscle as you age.
     
  49. sly_karma

    sly_karma Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yes it's a lesson going forward. I've owned and operated this body for more than half a century, yet I know so little. My trainer referred to skiing as cardio and I didn't get it at first - isn't cardio stuff like distance running, cycling, swimming and XC skiing? But she pointed out that alpine skiing at expert level is intense effort for a few minutes followed by a rest for a few minutes, repeated for several hours. Surely that's the definition of interval training, but all these years I'd never categorised skiing as cardio. Duh.

    So yes from here on I'll figure out an eating plan and recovery plan for ski days. And figure out how to regain the lost muscle. I'm not a fan of supplements, but I won a big jar of whey protein powder at the gym (for being a big loser), so that might be a good starting point.
     
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  50. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    The same sorts of exercise that depletes muscles of glycogen (HIIT) or similar also builds muscle (the sort that fatigues muscle).