I read a recent report from the Auditor General about the financial viability of the resort. I a bit confused as to the expectation that Baw Baw is ever going to be financially indepedent. While the days of dependency and support from the other resorts has now gone, the ongoing support from the government seems to have the aim of securing financial independence - i.e. no losses. I expect that Baw Baw will never be financially independent from Government support. I think that trying to get more vistors up the the resort is good and the recent efforts made for the summer seasons have been great, but there is only one reason why people come in the winter and it is - SNOW. Is sealing the South Face Road going to make any difference? While the numbers on the South Face Rd look promising, they don't seem to be able to seperate the through traffic that doesn't come to the resort. I cannot see how the sealing of the South Face Road is going to make a measurable difference to visitor numbers. What would it cost to seal the South Face Road? $10mil+??? Could that money be better spent? What are the other possibilities that might get more people up to Baw Baw: (i) A chairlift up the Summit (to reduce queing) and perhaps back up the Beginner Hill. This would open up more ski area as well. Unload at top of Painted or a bit higher, half station at lower Painted, bottom station in the bowl, top station at the top of Tank Hill. The Cairn Cafe on the Summit for foot patrons with views.... This would wipe out x3 existing lifts - Summit TBar, Painted TBar and Tank Hill Poma. Seems a better option than a snooty place to eat at VC. Yes, i know, an old chestnut, but if you are going to market to snow boarders for the 'park and terrain' how much do those boarders really like getting the TBar??? Yes, I know the finances don't stack up... On $2.5mil, that is $125K in interest and $125K in repayments, totalling $250K a year and an ADDITIONAL 3570 lift tickets per year at $70 a pop - 357 additional tickets per week over a 10 week season. Yes, a few assumptions there, 5% interest, $2.5mil to build, maintenance, environmental concerns, the cost of existing and replaced infrastrcuture not factored in.... Feel free to be critical and more specific, but I think other resorts successfully manage it. (ii) Grid power (what would that cost? and would it make a difference???) (iii) Civil and drainage work to smooth out the Maltese Run and other areas to allow for skiiing in more marginal conditions; (iv) Install the old Big Hill Poma (v) Put a rope tow down the old chair lift run for the 6 weeks when there is snow there - a cheap option for a decent pitch of ground. (And yes, I know that it is difficult for Ski Patrol to get the injured out of there, but a simple downhill cross cut track through to the Road will solve that). (vi) Re-do the civil works for Bill Hill Access Poma so that Road Run can acutally be skied. Fixing Big Hill Access and Big Hill will open up heaps more terrain that already exists and was previously used. (vii) REDUCE the resort entry fees; (viii) Survey the vistors to ask them why they won't come back and what they do not like about Baw Baw. (ix) New dedicated area for beginners with more magic carpets etc.. While a quad chair will cost about $2.5mil to install, all the other stuff is quite do-able when compared to the cost of sealing the south face road. Why not just grade it regualrly, rather than it be a 4wd obstacle track. I suspect Baw Baw is heading towards a Lake Mountain model for cross country skiing when there is snow. Am I being unreasonable? Is there any future for Baw Baw's marginal snow season? Are people in control having trouble seeing the wood because of the trees? Strong future? I want to be positive, but I'm having trouble with confidence in the current direction of the resort. 40 ps, I love to know how much the Village Central Restaurant has increased visitor numbers by, or even made a profit? pps, And what happened to the interpretation centre and public facility that was once planned? As the feedback I've had from the public is that eating in the 'public shelter' area is a bit grim adn limited (not to mention the toilets) .... rant over.... but see the article below. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-05-31/mt-baw-baw-alpine-resort-up-beat-about-future/4725450 The chief executive of the Mt Baw Baw Alpine Resort says he believes the mountain has a strong future.An auditor-general's report found Mt Baw Baw was at a high financial risk, with an operating deficit of $1.7 million. Mt Baw Baw Alpine Resort's chief executive, Stuart Ord, says sealing the south face access road would attract more visitors. He says the resort has to generate its own energy and connecting to the electricity grid would save money. "Unfortunately, and it's a fact of history, we generate all our own energy up here and that's a very, very expensive thing to do," he said. "We pay about 86 cents a kilowatts hour, compared to ... probably what you pay down in the valley, probably about 25, 26."
This year, the government has put in private operators for Lake Mountain - Belgravia Leisure who are traditionally operators of aquatic and golf facilities. If it's a success (which will depend to a large extent I think on snow fall this season), the resort will be put out to open tender for several years at least. And there's also a very good chance that Baw Baw will also be put out to tender. Where private operators can save a lot of money is by centralising administrative stuff (accounts, HR, advertising etc) in their other operations, and also saving the CEO costs (over $250K in salary alone for LM, plus his car + other costs). So, if you're interested in the future of BB, I would be watching LM like a hawk this year. So far, so good. Mountain staff seem happy and Belgravia seem more responsive and understanding to stake holders. etc. P.S. LM's not on the grid either - they use a whopping big generator. Imo, they should have used bushfire money to connect to the grid rather than using it for massive flashy buildings.
I've been skiing at Baw Baw long enough to remember when the lifts were a privately run concern. Initially there were two companies ( a bit like blue and orange at Buller) but in the early 1980s they merged. I wonder how the lifts managed to, presumably, make a profit back then but obviously not now. I guess that the very much changed health and safety landscape has made a big difference. Back then many of the lifts operated, at least for some of the time as "self load" with towies only being there some of the time. This would have meant less staff were needed. Perhaps in real terms the price of the day ticket these days is cheaper than back then? I will be watching with interest LMs experience, Teckel. I love Baw Baws unique atmosphere , not to mention it is easy for me to get to, and I would hate to see it go under. Oldie.
Good ideas 40, I think the old big hill poma has been reinstated. I have always thought a gondola type chairlift, similar to OS resorts, would be a huge asset, especially if it could go beyond the immediate skiable area and access a new larger carpark lower down the mountain, maybe to an area where chains are not required to be fitted, could also be a huge attraction all year round, but we are talking about big big dollars. I think trying to attract more patrons is a necessity but the existing facilities would not cope. Getting mains power connected is crucial to lowering costs, but I wonder if the government will want to invest with the resort already losing significant amounts of money. With the resort bordering the national park, there is huge untapped potential to sensibly develop world class walking and XC trails, similar to european models with o'night huts/stopovers. With unreliable and short snow seasons, the 'green' season may yet be the saviour of the resorts viability if managed suitably.
Well, I think a key issue is that money has been, and is continued to be, spent in the wrong areas. Snow tubing on Big Hill Access was a big mistake, but then they repeated the problem on the old chairlift run, with continued losses. No sure if grid power would actually lower costs in the resort, unless the cost was given by the government. Grid power would need to be underground, along the road and I understand that an upgrade would be needed from the sealed road down to Erica/Rawsons. Still big dollars. One thing is for sure, this season is shaping up as a poor one, with high temperatures, very little precipitation and too much sunshine. I'd likem to think it is a late season with the 8 remaining weeks of good snow and productive commerce. Trying to be positive, but it is difficult...
Yes, I agree there is a potential for expansion of the resort for snow and other activities, however the environmental considerations would surely put a stop to any expansion. I understand that the resort is currently operating on a no-loss of vegitation basis. If they clear one area, then they need to revegitate the same amount of area somewhere else. Environmentalists have also complained that the installation of a chairlift and cafe on the top of the mountain would "spoil" the landscape and would be unacceptable, as it would be an eyesore....
I'm not keen on clearing but I don't get why the environmentalists are complaining about the resort area as there is a disgusting amount of logging around the resort and around the plateau. Reckon the logging needs to stop first, a little bit of clearing here and there on an already touched environment up at Baw Baw shouldn't make much of a difference. It's the huge area of logging thats the problem, I'm not arguing/disagreeing with you I just reckon those environmentalists need to stop the bigger problems
Regarding expansion, I thought there once was another tow to the south of the Big Hill poma? In the Nordic Bowl area. Presumably there are still some semi cleared runs in that area? Maybe they need to offer free entry for every patron who brings up a trailer load of rock so the mountain can made a little higher
Agree with TeleXC re logging, and what about bushfires,how are they factored in? The resort needs to expand and develop,but government policy needs to radically change to enable this to happen. We have become a society drowning in red tape and regulations,so much so that it is almost too difficult to do anything. Don't get me wrong,as a skier and hiker I love the environment, but with common sense, the resort, and the associated national park, can be suitably developed to cater for more people of all abilities.
But before any expansion is done I think that that terrible tourist road really needs a bit of care to cope with the increased traffic (or let alone the current traffic). That road really needs to be widened and be on par with resorts like Buller, it feels like your going to have a head on collision every time you take a corner The top of the road looks to have had a makeover but the lower roads need some immediate attention. I know many cyclists who use the road during summer as part of the 7 peaks challenge. I was having a chat with the car park assistant a few weeks ago and he said there was an accident quite recently and there has been many in the past. There isn't even any lanes marked out. Puts me off going to Baw Baw, still a beautiful place to visit though
Yep,that road is a shocker,I have had one or two near misses myself,the log trucks don't help matters either.South Face isn't much better,friends have had numerous punctures.The resort could be the jewel in the crown,but road access is poorly maintained with little or no safety markings,such as clear yellow lines for foggy conditions,no comparison to the bigger resorts.
Numerous State Govts of both teams have failed the little resorts (mainly Bawbs & Stirling) by neglecting to fund access road upgrades to the quality seen elsewhere in the Alps. Sure this costs money but the Govt is happy to market the small resorts as local gems and touring routes whatever the risk. They also expect them to compete with fully serviced resorts with proper roads (how can they given comments here?) While I dont think a sealed SFR would solve all the problems, I think it would help in time as I have several keen ski friends (40s with young families) & due to discomfort, carsickness and sheer terror (for non driver!) wont drive to Baw Baw - esp given the ~ $50 w/e paking fee. Other stuff that might help (apologies if repeating others) is expanded snowmaking (down whole runs - esp longer. &/or harder ones), summer grooming (inc strategic rock removal), Better winter xc trail grooming & summer maintenance/ drainage. I could go on that's ~ enough. With a 4Yold I should check their jnr lifts & lesson packages - if these kids' packs are flexible & affordable & there's snow I won't have to subject our boy to Buller W/E crowds, whiteouts/winds and prices etc.... Summer is less clear cut (more variables) but I think road access and bike/hike facilities would. Be a good start.
just remember its all pomas and tbars snowgum, your back will be sore at the end of the day! i love taking my kids to the baws....usually do one or 2 day trips for a father n son day out, half day on the lifts half a day on the trails on xc....we usually ski hotham but the kids love the atmosphere at baw baw....its just less manic my parents built one of the early lodges there and i dont really think it was anything other than a lot of fun.....never really viable.....i dont think it should be....who cares if its subsidised, i pay plenty of tax the road has never worried me, sometimes big logs down after a storm, but you get that, just gotta drive smart, and if they are fitting chains i fit them to my 4wd too mountain biking up top is untapped potential
I hope it gets more $$. I learnt to ski at BB in the early 90's. Arriving late at night, then having to start up the generator in the dark. The road is a bit of a challenge but it has never put us off. If they could expand the ski areas a bit more (as per above ) would be good. Also as a mountain biker, I would love to see some trails up there. It is an absolutely stunning area, the view from the Summit is magic.
Mount Baw Baw faces mounting pressure to appoint a private operator to manage the ailing alpine resort, sparking fresh concerns about the future of Victoria's ski fields which rely on millions of dollars in government funding each year. The Mount Baw Baw Alpine Resort Management Board received more than $13 million in taxpayer funding since 2008, but reported a $2.3 million loss in 2011-12 and has been plagued by allegations of mismanagement. According to a government source, the board is expected to announce a tender process in September to select a private management company, which could take control of the resort by November. At last: Fresh snow on Saturday. At last: Fresh snow on Saturday. In December last year, the state government appointed Belgravia Leisure to manage the state-owned Lake Mountain Alpine Resort, which had also been propped up by taxpayer funding. Belgravia Leisure is expected to bid for the management contract at Mount Baw Baw, which includes the operation of ski-lifts, accommodation and several hospitality venues on the mountain, about 120 kilometres east of Melbourne. Advertisement Before Saturday's cold snap, the warm weather had melted the few remaining patches of man-made snow last week, and all seven lifts remained idle, while the general store and several restaurants and cafes were closed. ''The place feels like a ghost town'', said Steve Cartwright, who arrived from Perth with his family last Monday for a four-day ski holiday. ''You take a punt when you book in advance and we obviously realised there's a chance it won't snow. But virtually everything is closed and there don't seem to be any activities laid on. ''We were told the place was losing money by the human resources manager, who asked us 'what do you expect?','' Mr Cartwright said. A report by the Victorian Auditor-General's Office in May 2012 raised doubts about the financial viability of resorts at Mount Baw Baw and Lake Mountain, and recommended the respective boards ''investigate the potential for revised operating arrangements''. On Saturday, a spokesman for Environment Minister Ryan Smith said any decision on privitisation would be made by the board. ''The minister is confident in the board's ability to make the most appropriate decision in relation to the resort's ongoing operations and is leaving it up to the board to make those determinations,'' the spokesman said. Mount Baw Baw Alpine Resort chief executive Stuart Ord confirmed ''the facilitation of private investment'' was one option under consideration. ''A decision has not been made as to whether private investment will be sought. If this decision were to be made, a competitive expression-of-interest process would be conducted. If or when a decision is made to seek private investment an announcement will be made,'' Mr Ord said. He said a range of measures had been recently introduced to boost visitation outside the ski season and reduce reliance on government funds. But the resort's financial woes have been exacerbated by poor snow falls and a 50 per cent slump in visitors over the first six weeks of the 2013 ski season. The problems are not confined to Mount Baw Baw, with Victoria's five other ski-fields recording patchy snow falls and an average 40 per cent fall in visitor numbers since the season opened six weeks ago. Adelaide resident Carolyn Ricci arrived in Mount Baw Baw last Sunday with her sister and four children. She was forced to drive four hours to Mount Buller on Tuesday and spent more than $1000 so her children could ski for the first time. ''We booked the trip months ago. We always realised there was no guarantee of snow but everything has been closed down and you feel like you shouldn't be here. ''It's been a battle to keep upbeat and make this a good holiday for the kids,'' Ms Ricci said. On Friday night, Ms Ricci and her children saw snow fall for the first time, as the resort received a light dusting. In 2011, Mt Baw Baw's former chief executive, Leona Turra, was the subject of an independent inquiry by consultancy firm Deloitte, after a whistleblower raised probity concerns. Ms Turra, who received a salary of more than $200,000, cited poor health when she suddenly resigned in 2011 and has consistently denied any wrongdoing. The Deloitte report was never made public. A version of the report acquired by Fairfax Media under freedom of information laws had been heavily redacted, including the findings relating to Ms Turra's conduct. Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/no-sno...l#ixzz2ZcCqHe87
"Ms Turra, who received a salary of more than $200,000, cited poor health when she suddenly resigned in 2011 and has consistently denied any wrongdoing. The Deloitte report was never made public. A version of the report acquired by Fairfax Media under freedom of information laws had been heavily redacted, including the findings relating to Ms Turra's conduct". its great to see The Age are trying to learn wtf goes on behind closed doors.
Because environmentalist are not logging they are skiing and always impose their idiology wherever they go.
If Private Operators Take over the mountain. Then the stake holders ( Clubs, and Private businesses ) will then have 2 Overseeing bodies 1) Private 2) State Government AT WHAT COST.
It's ok to subsidise the mountain, and an upgrafe to mains power and touring huts. Probably only small beer compared to public money going into facilities for football & the tax exemptions the major clubs benefit from.
Mains power, or lack thereof. Lake Mountain has the same problem. How important do the boards actually regard this? On Black Saturday, Lake Mountain lost a machinery shed, a toilet block and ski patrol building. Their main building (bistro, ski hire, admin) survived intact. They received many millions in compensation (a mix I assume of insurance, public monies etc). Now instead of just replacing lost infrastructure and using the windfall to connect to the grid (which imo would seem to be what most sane people would do), they proceeded to build a massive new building which included a 400 seat restaurant. To me, this was massive and bizarre spending, and they would have been far better off to connect to the grid instead. So while it's fine for the RMBs to whinge about not being connected to the grid, it seems that it may not be their top priority.
I visited Baw Baw in winter for the first time today. I'm a cross country racer, and was looking for some training closer to Melbourne, especially with Lake Mountain lacking snow. $43 for resort entry is a lot, but if you get what it says, then I can handle that price. Unfortunately the XC grooming was non-existent, despite there being enough snow to at least run the skidoo over it. At 11am I enquired whether they would be grooming, and I was told by the ski patroller that they would go out in half an hour and be finished in 2 hours. I went inside for an hour, then attempted the Summit Trail, Village Trail and McMillan's trail, non of which were yet groomed. I asked again, and was told that they didn't have the staff to do it, and it might be 'a couple more hours'. I was on skating skis, so decided to skate up the lift line of the Summit T-Bar, as they at least had a bit of snow grooming there and the lift wasn't open. I did a few reps going up and down, then was told be someone riding on a skidoo that I shouldn't go on there because they wanted to preserve the snow. My skating tracks were less than 1cm deep, and I informed him that I didn't exactly have anywhere else to go. They had sent out a skidoo by that time (3pm), but it was a very narrow track, probably less than 1.5m wide, and my skis continued to get bogged on the side, making for rather unpleasant skiing. I understand the financial constraints the resort is under, but XC grooming is one of the services I paid for. It's no wonder I was the only person out there when the resort isn't even making an effort to attract the XC market. The trails are beautiful and can operate with little snow, so would surely be a good option for maintaining resort visitation. Next time I will drive the extra 40 minutes to Mt Stirling, as Baw Baw really wasn't worth it today despite the good snow.
Unlike SE I skied late enough to benefit from skidoo grooming of on Baw Baw's summit trail - snow was good & cold too ~ 10 cm nr Village & ~ 20 up top. Skiing Was good too on Wide Tele set but i can issues on skate set ups. With todays' rain. This area will back to a Zippo base.
Overnight rain and warm wind smashed it for today. Yesterday was pretty good around the summit and out around McMillan's trail but today I hiked to the top of Hut run in the morning, skied a few runs in 4-5 cms, with a little bit of fill from fresh snowfall but it was desperado stuff, not highly recommended. Saw the skate tracks up Summit lift line and around lower Hut trail and wondered " Who has been out here? Top effort!" Wait for more snow at bb.
Somebody else, I too went for a trip to baw baw early winter to do some skating as LM had insuficent snow. Even when there was a good 15cm they wouldn't groom it for some reason, I mean it cant be too hard to groom it. So I skated in think heavy ungroomed stuff, which might be good for some training but it was hard to keep a momentum going in such messy stuff with snow drifts everywhere. May I ask which division you are part of in the AUS team?
Baw Baw generally seem fairly relaxed about grooming - even when cover is ok. It's pretty frustrating - doesn't say much for their view of xc folk & possibly and indication if staff shortages? The trails really need some drainage work in the boggy spots - really should spend the money or get some volunteers up on a couple workparties. Parts of the village really need > 60 cm to ski so off limits most seasons - quite a pity as its a rippa when skiable - nice snowplains & distant views. These aren't new problems they're old & ongoing but there's apparently no focus on them, despite the need to attract more than just alpine skiers & winter visitors. Time for management to listen! I'll keep going but hope xc trails will improve in line with other recent village upgrades.
Save your $43 and ski in from the Mt St Gwinear side of the plateau, you might even get a bit of grooming provided.
Not a bad idea but with a four year old (play & toboganning) Gwinny is a bit limiting (an old friend!) For all its faults BB offers more sheltered /indoor spots for littlies & non- skiers to escape the cold & a bit more entertainent (less of an issue for adult XC skiers). The extra 150 m in base height doesn't much but can make all the difference in marginal cover. So while we'll probably do MSG in a few years BB will have its uses. -) Especially with the South Face Rd being in such good condition (happy passengers)!
I haven't done the return trip for a very long time but it shouldn't be too difficult weather and snow permitting. I think it's 18km return.
Gwinear car park to BB return is doable as a day trip if conditions are good ( say 50 cm.+) but do not expect grooming, for most of the way, at least. I would not recommend skating skis for such a trip, either. Some backcountry/ touring skis would be the way to go. A reasonable degree of fitness would be required and, to be safe, a good day and a reliable companion, preferably one who knows the plateau pretty well. Could be some good cover on the plateau after the coming week's forecast weather events so perhaps a chance to get up there soon.
Hi TeleXC, I'm in the transition from juniors to U23s. (I'm Nick Montgomery, my profile name stems from the days before Facebook when I wanted to protect my online privacy). Thanks for the advice everyone else. I'm still going to write to management to inform them, but next time I'll keep Gwinear in mind and go classic skiing. I ought to make more visits to the Plateau for skiing, not just hurting myself cycling up in summer!
Great to meet you nick, I'm nick too cause this seasons been so bad I've been roller skiing most of the time. Baw baw should do something about its xc, they seem to be strait onto the downhill skiing when there's a small dump. I don't like to roller ski though because it hurts so much to fall!
Grooming & summer trail maintenance? The irony here is that the main XC trails tend to hold snow longer & ski better than the alpine runs - even with snowmaking. Have never seen a financial statement but I'd guess $ for summer grooming on xc trails would be minimal, winter frooming budget very low c/f other ops. (Happy to be persuaded otherwise) (;-)
Interesting to note that BB is holding a cross country event ' The Tullicoutty Cup' on Sunday 11/8. You would hope they would groom some trails for such an event, yet up until quite recently there was nowhere to properly train for a race. I asked in the admin office if anyone knew what the proposed course was, but no-one knew. Can only presume it goes up the Summit xc trail and over the back, as the SE section of the Village trail is still roped off with a sign referring to summer maintenance work. The other short trail near the bowl seems to have been allocated to a dog sled ride called Howling Huskies. Watch out on the trails, that one might not be bark!
They have exactly the same problem at DP, when they get a good dump they don't groom it even though I saw heaps of skiers out using it, really makes life difficult for skaters. When I was at baw baw the husky operators were pretty courteous but I didn't know they alowcate trails to them. Didn't the xc race go to mt st phillack? Don't think that'll be happening, snow line looks too high today
Tullicouty glen is one of the little valleys on the plateau, pretty close to Phillack IIRC. I think it may be a mispelling of Tillicoultry Glen in Clackmannashire, Scotland.
This email went out during the week from the race organisers... .The snowfalls at Mt Baw Baw last night were 10 times more than forecast, and there is significant precipitation possible for Friday, which could fall as rain, snow, or not at all. But there is no base on the main trails at Mt Baw Baw, so even with the most optimistic snowfalls we cannot groom by the weekend, so a suitable skating track for a race is not possible. Therefore the 2013 Tullicouty and St Phillack Cup races will NOT attract points in the Victorian 2013 Ski Chase competition. Thank you to the off-mountain skiers who have supported the races over previous years. http://ausxc.com/category/uncategorized/ The Baw Baw Club trophy WILL be contested by the local club’s as usual, even if we are running over grass to the Summit and back. So please come to the Skiosk at 10am Sunday, with crampons, skis, runners, or gumboots, as appropriate. The organisers make no suggestion as to which will be appropriate, until Friday’s front has passed through, such has been the fickleness of this season’s weather patterns. It's all about the weather folks!
I guess the name is open to several interpretations. http://www.scottishwebcamslive.com/tillicoultry.htm
What a shocking season baw baws had, I actually think Buffalo has done better this year. It sounds like an interesting race, shame it can't run properly
I think you will find that the management have spent quite a lot of time on summer grooming the cross country trails, cutting trees, widening to enable the groomer to get around, but having said that, surely it makes sense to concentrate funds on the yo yo skiers who buy lift tickets and meals rather than the cross country mob who tend to do neither! (Ducks for cover)
Yeah but they are still paying their 40 odd bucks for the privilige of skiiing on tracks with boot holes on them!
Nah, they're paying to enter the resort, the same as folks who come to play on the toboggan runs and throw snowballs
Then I recall TC one if the nicer, larger & longer plains on the plateau. <note to self> ...has been too long, must so this traverse again soon!
Article with not so much good news http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/baw-baw-lifts-close-20130824-2sir4.html
I think the current CEO has done the best he can with the advice he has been given from the board, and it has been the same board over the last decade as far as I know. There is no doubt this season has been bad, and we were certainly due for one, statisically speaking, and it is looking like the snow will not last much longer anyway with the warm weather predicted this week, so the lifts would not be able to operate. No snow, no lifts, that's pretty logical, so I don't know what other decision the CEO could have made as the resort would have reached a financial tipping point at some stage. He wouldn't have taken this decision lightly and would have been well aware of the flak he was going to cop from businesses, one can only hope that green season events help compensate for the winter losses. There are no winners with poor snow conditions but they are a fact of life and bound to be more frequent.
