Bushfire Gippsland, NE Victoria & Alpine Fires

Discussion in 'Systems & Events' started by Ubiquitous Steve, Dec 28, 2019.

  1. Vermillion

    Vermillion Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    You dont put bushfires out mate, you maneuver them into a position IE around a town or into a corner of 'less critical' importance if at all possible or turn them back onto themselves with the help of the weather. Blokes in trucks with hoses dont extinguish bushfires. Most of the time you just hold on and hope for the best.
     
  2. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    I think we have the resources. They're just not deployed in a timely manner. Talking Vic here, and DELWP in particular.
    CFA hit anything fast and hard. DELWP will send one slip-on with 2 guys. Next day, it might be 2 slip-ons. Oh shit, it's grown! Sure, the terrain they fight fires in is a lot tougher, but if they hit it hard initially, it's going to be a whole lot easier than otherwise.
     
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  3. Vermillion

    Vermillion Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    And that's after they started the thing in the first place with a backburn gone wrong 'oh yeah the wind changed without warning the forecast was wrong...again'
     
  4. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    which is why most here are saying that there are places that are good to visit and places to stay away from.

    if people stay away until the disaster area has taken years to rebuild, much will never be rebuilt.

    yes it's a difficult balance, but it's one that the tourism bodies and local councils have to strive for
     
  5. Vermillion

    Vermillion Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    I dont get all the negativity about it. Yes it was a disaster. Yes some places got razed pretty hard and people have had to leave, lost property and businesses and tourism is down. But shit, how much good are you going to do by sitting there whinging about it, day after day. Moping about 'oh it's terrible' 'how will we ever recover?' 'you dont understand just how bad it is' etc. How much good is that going to do you? None. Are these people waiting for some kind of magical being to come and wave a wand and fix everything? Cos that aint going to happen. Councils/mayors have an agenda, the worse they make it seem the more money they'll get to 'fix' it, so completely discount them. They also want to be elected for another term, so sympathizing with the population about how tough it is wins you many more points than downplaying the situation. The balance is somewhere in the middle but i'll bet that those who are being positive and moving on and rebuilding will be in a much better place than those moping around with their bottom lip low. A bit of a symptom of society nowadays, I know things have changed a lot but when I look through the history books and news articles in my shack at Noojee, a town which has been razed a few times by fires, their drive to accept what's happened, move on and rebuild inspires me and would inspire me if I was in that situation too.
     
  6. mick chopps

    mick chopps Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Sky crane left Moorabbin airport heading south East this morning at about 8:00am.
    Assuming redeployment in prep of the hairy conditions to come over the coming days.
     
  7. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yes and no.
    Towns that were not impacted or only slightly impacted by fire and where the tourism businesses are whinging - just get on with it, baton down the hatches when necessary.
    Towns badly affected seem few and far between. Those that are badly affected, tourists should stay away from, as people will be hurting badly - and justifiably - and I'm not talking businesses - I'm talking PTSD stuff. Go gently and easily on these places.

    But lots of money can be bad too. Too much money turns people into victims. (Gimme gimme gimme) Not much money turns people into survivors. Seen this with my own eyes. And I know which is better - victims or survivors.
     
  8. WarrandyteWX

    WarrandyteWX One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    This mornings' fire weather briefing
     
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  9. dossa5

    dossa5 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    And curra smoke haze back again after a brief holiday.
    Can no longer see feathertop.
     
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  10. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Just goes to show the flow in affect from widespread fire events.

    Jindabyne has been very very quiet since Christmas. People are generally hunkering down at home in the cities because the stark realities of fire and smoke are manageable at home.
     
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  11. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Perhaps what is required is the established norm of depending on local volunteers needs to be bought up to speed in order to change the narrative from "she will be right mate let it burn to us" to "get on it now".

    Conditions after the primary burn need to be taken advantage of in a very aggressive manner. Currently, due primarily to over stretched resources, when conditions improve the local over stretched resources also take a break for maintenance and regroup.

    Lightening strikes in remote areas need instant air attack etc. For that to happen resources must be available and ready to go.
     
    #1661 dawooduck, Jan 30, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2020
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  12. Vermillion

    Vermillion Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    You could line trucks up end on end for kms, have a D10 run a line to bare earth in front of them, have half a dozen sky cranes over you and you still wouldnt stop a going bushfire. It just doesnt work like that.
     
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  13. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Enough of the us n them narrative. It's time to redraft existing volunteer reliance. The USA/Canada know how to hit things with real and dedicated resources and Australia needs to step up and actually commit to a cohesive system that can hit hard and fast and early.

    "Can we borrow a plane" is bullshit.
     
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  14. Vandans

    Vandans Hard Yards

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    It was reported by the RFS and here locally that sometimes after a lightning strike it may not show up for 48 hours or so. A bit of an issue there. it could smoulder and not show a hot spot. This was the case in 2003 with many lightning strikes in the Brindabella range. The McIntyre Hut fire broke out straight away the others did not show up until a day or two later!! Canberras western suburbs got hit with two fires 20 minutes apart from two directions
     
  15. rowdyflat

    rowdyflat One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Enough of the us n them narrative.
    Yeah I get a bit tired of the combative comments.
    It would be nice if people would relate as they would face to face .
    There seems to be this macho male thing to say provocative things or troll just because the internet is semi anonymous.
    I have been thru a fire ,half our farm was burnt in 2003 , the weather will be yucky from now til Sunday in northern VIC and southern NSW including Canberra ,Albury today 39 ,Fri 44 ,Sat 44 degrees.
    Believe me lots of people I know get anxiety and a sick feeling in the pit of the stomach when it is hot and windy. Some people eventually cant handle it and sell up.
    Encouraging tourists back to bushy areas for the benefit of the local economy before there is significant rain is a silly idea IMO.
    As others have noted if a business only depends on 1- 2 months of mega tourist traffic they are a bit out on a limb already.
     
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  16. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yes....that’s correct....crowning and spotting .....and flames leaping out the length of the MCG!
     
  17. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    I think authorities need to consider the danger posed to tourists on a day like today.....Bright and Beechworth are great tourist destinations....but me thinks further consideration needs to be given to the mayhem that would occur given the fuel moisture index atm.Plan for the worst case scenarios ......
     
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  18. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Nobody is saying everything is just fine but it is not all disaster. I also don't think you know these areas very well or at least not well enough to comment. Orbost was dying well before any fire came close. A timber town with very little timber left. My good friends own the bakery and this time of year is very important. You can make enough to carry you through the slack times in winter but an entire summer has been lost and that will hurt. A bakery can do well though if it gets the DELWP lunch contract for fire fighters. Lakes has had a visitor downturn for many years. Bairnsdale does not really offer much anyway but in all these areas there is plenty of unaffected space and things to do. The same things that were there prior to the fires for most visitors. I think the term disaster tourist is rude when you consider the great many who have commented here are going to these places to put some money into the economy and I am sure that is a trend throughout which is being promoted heavily by local radio stations. Get to the Bullant Brewery in Bruthen BTW. Great old wares shop next door also. Totally unaffected but Bruthen came close to being wiped out and there is NO DANGER NOW. I think we should be emphasising the safe places to visit and be mindful of those which are still in danger (I know there is a thread on this for mountain business but should include all affected areas).

    If you are happy being spoon fed garbage then that is fine with me but maybe getting out into the real world and having a look on the ground will give you a better overall picture and understanding of the real situation. It may be bad for some but it is not all bad and some focus on positive things brings benefit mentally and financially to many more.
    Was thinking the same thing. Councils will now be vying for the Federal rebuilding dollar so it is a matter of my disaster is worse.
    Abbeyard fire is taking off again. Could it be from that? Clear on the eastern side.
     
  19. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Not once have I mentioned active fast moving fire. Putting things out before they get a head up and when conditions change is where we are lacking with our reliance on a volunteer fire fighting "force" IMHO

    Lightening strikes in remote areas such as the Gospers fire and lingering fires such as Pilot and Geehi. Resources are stretched to the limit and so a "wait until it breaks out" approach does not appear to working in our increased population bushland interface world. When conditions improve and the fire quietens down the stretched resources retreat for maintenance and regroup and fire lingers on.

    Certainly work continues but again using limited resources.

    Fund a parks and public lands fire force, undertake active continual hazard reduction using this dedicated force. Local volunteers should not be called on for hazard reduction IMHO.
     
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  20. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    A new fire would require an ignition so we kicked the tourists out just in case one starts a fire? No storms forecast. Just hot weather and not even too windy. Summer in Bright is about floating down the river. We can't just shut up shop for the entire summer. Any plan should include accounting for normal tourist demand but frankly, just now, it is anything but normal so I can't see an issue.
     
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  21. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    There is some logic in this. As mentioned earlier, our fire sat there for a couple of days from ignition and nothing was done because there were no resources. When conditions were right, it took off and ripped through to Omeo. It calmed down on the change but sat there again, waiting for conditions to be right and then off it went again and this time heading to Omeo from the other side. It was stopped again only by a weather change. I spoke directly with the DELWP fire controller and warned him before this. Pointed the exact location out but nothing was done even though there was now then plenty of resources. Nothing until the fire controller changed to the local Parks ranger. Both fires could have been stopped by concentrated water bombing when they were but infants. My good friends lost all their outbuildings and a man lost his life.

    I can't see any serious fire activity in the Pilot or Geehi but that does not mean they are also not waiting for the right conditions and could be dealt with more easily now. Fire fighting is very reactive and a change to proactive with some forethought would help. I am not convinced that dedicated and paid firefighters are the way to go. They knock off in the afternoon and seem not to get to the fireground until 11am. CFA will only work on private land. The Vic systems sucks.
     
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  22. GS

    GS Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yep, no incentive to extinguish the very thing that can pay your overtime.
     
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  23. Snow Blowey

    Snow Blowey Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I've tried to put camp fires out with a bucket of water. Its hard. So put fire over a larger area of dry bush and you'll really struggle to get it out.
     
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  24. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Except this doesn't apply in Victoria. You're talking NSW. In Vic, the CFA are the volunteer firefighters. They are there to defend properties and town and other assets. And they do their job bloody well.
    The DELWP firefighters are paid firefighters who go into the remote areas. They're the ones who are slack - if a fire burns for several days - that means more overtime, more pay.
     
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  25. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    I am talking every state, the country of Australia. Enough us n them carry on, its how we are where we are.
     
  26. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Not so!!! They work anywhere around towns, roads etc. Their 'territory' does not include remote rugged terrain. They will work with DELWP in more remote areas, but that's DELWP's call. If DELWP don't want CFA on 'their' fire, they just have to say so. Down here, we get on relatively well with DELWP. Other areas, not so well. I would suggest that up your way is one such area. Probably half the fires I've attended have been in bush. We get a call of smoke being spotted - we go out and find it. If it's in DELWP's territory we let them know including grid refs etc. Then they say they will attend it in the morning! Grrrrr.
     
  27. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    But you are basing your opinion on how it works in your state. You're the one who disparaged the volunteers - if that's not an 'us n them'. Every state works differently.
     
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  28. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Oh FFS, the country needs an answer to putting fires out when they start, hitting fires hard when they have calmed down and working 24/7 with dedicated air and ground resources.

    I have not "disparaged volunteers" at any time so please, put down your prejudice and work towards a solution for all. Fires do not give a shit for state boundaries.
     
  29. Snow Blowey

    Snow Blowey Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    DO we gear up for the one in 30 year type year (this year) and have most of the gear and people sit idle for 29 years out of 30 years? By which time all the capital intensive equipment you want us all to own and operate is outdated and not fit for service.
     
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  30. Vermillion

    Vermillion Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Due to the remoteness of a lot of locations, the only realistic option for your proposal would be aerial bombing. And lots of it. It would cost astronomical amounts. Im not saying money should come into it, but at some point you need to be realistic.

    The other problem with your proposal is something I dont have an answer to, and that is that if you put out every fire you find when it starts, even in the remotest areas, then when do you burn those areas? They need to burn at some point, that's how the life cycle of the bush in AUS runs, so how do you take care of that? Backburning/reduction burns? What happens when you put out every single little lightning strike fire that is 'waiting' to go off before it goes off for a generation or 2, allowing fuel to build up, then get a situation where it goes nuts so quickly you dont have a chance to put them out before they get big and all of a sudden that fuel that humans have prevented from burning for x years is now getting burned up, turning the countryside into a moonscape like 2003 did?
     
  31. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Is this not exactly where we currently are, burning under a regime of lackadaisical localized approaches (not the local people on the ground but the whole official approach) without a dedicated and integrated rural fire resource including waiting for borrowed resources to arrive from overseas ? Its so atypically Australian, bicker and whine for local control and respond only when shit gets real. The cost of prevention v the cost of recovery.

    Why not a dedicated fire force that manages "fuel load" buffers during off season utilizing dedicated available resources (including air support) ?

    Standing at a fire shed being told "you are on your own" due to nil available resource is sobering. Thankfully the locals knew what they where doing to protect their grazing lands. The local comms system is a joke, the shed and trucks are volunteer maintained, the backup is private utes with ICB setups and the official response is a "stand in line" resources approach. This all may have worked in a previous time but these dryer warmer days need a rethink .... IMHO.
     
  32. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    But that can only be figured out from a point of knowledge not from a base of ignorance.
    Also, different states have different fire regimes. Tasmanian fires and Queensland fires are vastly different. One solution quite simply does not fit all.
     
  33. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    My point exactly .....
     
  34. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Got no idea what they do in your state. None of that applies in Vic. (And this is the Vic fire thread.)
     
  35. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    o_O

    Have you not given us an endless run down on what happens in your very special unique state, endless complaints about us n them style fire fighting ? As the crow flies you are one big fire away from me.

    The question remains .... "how can we put fires out quickly when they are small and located in remote places AND improve our hazard reduction regime" ?
     
  36. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    I'm trying to give you some knowledge, but it seems you're not interested.
     
  37. GS

    GS Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Beg to differ. Our local CFA stated that people on our road should not expect any support in a bushfire, they simply will not send trucks.
     
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  38. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Got no idea what they do in your state. None of that applies in Vic.
    Trucks and sheds are maintained centrally. Comms are good. No private ute backups. Backups are CFA.
    Arm yourself with knowledge before you spout off.
     
  39. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    You have a lot of surrounding brigades. If the Warburton Hwy burns otoh, and you have that road choked with fleeing people and under fire attack, no one from outside your area will come. Air support, yes. But it's the nature of where you live. Outside units will come in as soon as they can.
     
  40. Tanuki

    Tanuki Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    That's almost the same scenario to the fire that destroyed Wye River and our place on xmas day 2016. The small spot fire in the upper Cumberland River was allowed to smoulder in cool weather, then bingo bango two hot days of 40c an off it went with the northerly.
     
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  41. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Thank you expert, glad everything is wonderful in your neck of the woods and that fire responds so well to the perfect Victorian fire fighting regime.
     
  42. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    That's a totally different question. You were blaming volunteers. In fact, volunteers want to get the bloody fire out so they can get home and get back to living their own lives.

    Us & them stuff in Vic has been brought to a head by our current premier and his best union buddy. In fact, I'm wondering if that's not behind the issue that Xplora has raised.
     
  43. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Oh my god .... NO ONE IS BLAMING VOLUNTEERS. :mad:
     
  44. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    You really can't see that things work differently in different parts of the country. Did I ever say it works well? But different problems pertain to different regions of the country. Not everything that happens in your neck of the woods has relevance nationwide.
     
  45. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I had a whinge about it in the bike thread earlier. It's actually cleared up a lot since this am
     
  46. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    LOL Whatever!
     
  47. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Why are you so combative ?

    My original and consistent comment was about how to respond quicker and with stronger action when fires start and when they calm down to get them out ASAP. A holistic and national approach that includes hazard reduction and a strong strike force action.

    You seem fixated on your local fire shed politics and a localized continual us and them narrative.
     
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  48. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    You post a false narrative and then just go "whatever". :crap:
     
  49. Vandans

    Vandans Hard Yards

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    New fire on Elliot Way near Cabramurra just started!!
     
  50. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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  51. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Team Bears keep telling you to make those camp fires big when conditions are right and burn that fuel load down....but you have backward minds!Now look at the bigger burnt landscape of a hot burn.Thousands of hectares of moonscape!!No more miniature fires please!:whistle:
     
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  52. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Well....Selwyn has gone ....so we must not get too stressed!!:whistle:
     
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