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Green season prep for the 2020 BC season

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by Interruptedbyfireworks, Mar 3, 2020.

  1. zac150

    zac150 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    FWIW when it comes to sleeping bags and sleeping systems, way too many people forget the layering system. Kind of funny that so many outdoors people preach layering during the day then jump in a single layer sleeping system.

    I prefer a lighter bag, yes I sleep warm, but it allows me to layer the system with thermals, silk liner, bag (I use a down blanket in summer and cheap Bag brought in a Kathmandu market in winter) plus a bivi, total system is still lighter than a heavy duty bag an I have had this system in low temps.
     
    #301 zac150, May 16, 2020
    Last edited: May 17, 2020
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  2. satanas

    satanas Addicted

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    The EN tests are good for comparing different bags, and are objective. What everyone needs to figure out for themselves is how they line up with the "standard person" the test is based on. I've had winter bags that were both too cold and way too hot in the past so warmer isn't always better; you need to be comfortable, not hypothermic *or* hyperthermic.

    In my experience, it's better to take a not-too-hot bag and lightweight down pants plus a down jacket. The insulated clothes are handy at night, especially if people want to (= are stupid enough to) cook outside. If it's a particularly cold night, they get worn to bed. And IMHO/IME anyone who claims wearing clothes to bed makes you colder is deluded.
     
  3. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    They won’t be quite as warm as down pants, but my new Patagonia Nano-Air pants are my new favourite thing in the world.
     
  4. Moondog55

    Moondog55 One of Us

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    As somebody who sleeps in their down gear I agree with you with a major caveat, most modern UL sleeping bags are cut so tight and skinny that there isn't room inside one to allow down clothing to loft, so if you are planning on layering up to sleep you need to find a bag designed to do this, usually such bags are called Expedition cut bags and they are 150 to 200mm bigger in girth, up to 1800mm in some cases. I'm a bit bigger than average and need such a bag for normal use.
    PHD in England make some bags specified as overbags that are worth looking at for this purpose but they are hideously expensive
    https://www.phdesigns.co.uk/hispar-down-overbag
    https://www.phdesigns.co.uk/zeta-synthetic-primaloft-overbag
    PHD have a few pages devoted to sleeping systems involving layering and wearing clothing to sleep in
    https://www.phdesigns.co.uk/what-is-sleep-systems
     
  5. zac150

    zac150 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    let’s be fair about the quote, the issue people see with wearing all clothes to bed is when you get out, you are effecting taking off a huge down jacket (sleeping bag) so you will be colder in the short term and that can slow things down in the morning.

    Also many garments that rely on loft can be less effective as the weight of the outer garment compress the inner, it’s like wearing a down jacket under a tight ski jacket has no effect as the down can’t loft. I’m not saying it won’t loft and won’t be warmer I’m just saying we need to understand the effects.
     
    #305 zac150, May 17, 2020
    Last edited: May 17, 2020
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  6. Moondog55

    Moondog55 One of Us

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    Although as strange as it might seem moderately compressed down doesn't seem to lose that much warmth.
    The cool factor when getting out of bed in the morning isn't something that I have ever felt much and when I have I find it goes away as soon as I have coffee in my hand. It is that first 90 seconds that is hard
    There is an ongoing discussion over at BPL on overstuffing down and the optimum level seems to be 2.5 times the amount that gives maximum loft per fill weight. This is certainly true of my old duvet parka and was the rationale of all of the old Fairydown sleeping bags that had such a good reputation. For skinny cut sleeping bags the old technique was to lay the parka over the top of the bag and a lot of people sewed buttons on to the sleeping bag to hold the parka in place.
    All of this is of course pointless if your mattress isn't warm enough, something it took me an age to learn and an extra CCF pad is always worth packing on snow
     
  7. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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  8. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yeah, nah..... A good bag will be warm enough zipped up and cool enough with venting so you don't have to worry about layering your sleeping place.
     
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  9. nfip

    nfip Cold n' Rusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    fwiw we had Thermolite bag liners down south.
    and a decent bag , was One Planet iirc. will confirm exact beast .
    I'd wear merino thermals top n bottoms, and a mid fleece , fleece pants down around the ankles pull them up in the night in need.
    In the snow in a bivvy was sweet.
    so I'm a fan of the layering worked for me.
    was only about 8 or 10 below so not too bad.
    no wind....
     
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  10. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    When you are carrying everything on your back, it has to be minimalist, so having a layer system for sleeping in addition to bag, mat and syn/downmat is excess to requirements if you can make the bag work. As I suggested, zipped up in full mummy mode can cope to say -15 and vented when not so cold.
     
  11. nfip

    nfip Cold n' Rusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    we are wearing the layers.
    so out of the bag into the shell moving around.
    you need the mat regardless of the bag IMO.
    but whatever works for one not necessary for all.
    as we know on these pages very well. ;)
     
  12. Moondog55

    Moondog55 One of Us

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    Yeah Fozzie but the warm layers are not in addition to the sleeping bags rating but an integral part of achieving the desired minimum temperature plus a big margin of safety. Mattress insulation should exceed that bags expected minimums for sure.
    But wearing up to an inch / 25mm of insulation inside your sleeping bag is accepted winter practice for saving weight on your back, maybe this is why athletic cut down clothing is so popular in cold places. Overbags are accepted practice also because not everybody can afford a dedicated winter only bag and the use thereof helps with keeping condensation from saturating your down if you are not using a vapour barrier liner
     
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  13. telenomore

    telenomore One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Happy to be called deluded. Sleeping bags don't provide heat, they insulate, and rely on your body heat to loft and insulate. A simple test is to be fully dressed, then get into your sleeping bag and put your hand down between your outer clothing and the inside of the sleeping. It will be cold in there for much longer, not to mention incredibly uncomfortable to sleep in your clothes. IMO the warmest, most comfortable night's sleep is had by wearing no more than thermal underwear, and using a silk liner. Combine this with a 4 season down bag and it is, for me, warm as toast on the coldest nights, and a bl....dy comfortable nights sleep. I would say though, if you are buying a bag for snow camping, don't scrimp, go 4 season with the best loft. Expensive but you won't regret it.
     
  14. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Plus it is nice to give the day clothes a bit of time out to recuperate.
     
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  15. zac150

    zac150 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    yeah except my sleep system is under 1kg, waterproof and I’ve had it to minus 12 in the snow.
     
  16. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Which goes to show, we all have different preferences, hence experiment until you find what works for you.
     
  17. nfip

    nfip Cold n' Rusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    ccchk cchk boom !!!!
     
  18. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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  19. Moondog55

    Moondog55 One of Us

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    Just out of general interest; what is the lowest temperatures people here have slept out in? Here in Oz I remember one freezing night at the big rock in Pretty Valley that was well below -15C and my coldest was in the Adirondacks at around -30C. I was warmer with less gear in the Adirondacks but a much better mattress
     
  20. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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  21. Jacko4650

    Jacko4650 One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    I did a minus 12 in a camper trailer if that counts? I recall spilling some water and being concerned about walking around in socks so grabbed the torch and a rag, only to find it had turned to ice so I picked it up and turfed it out the door, problem solved. Minus 15 in an insulated caravan but that's woosie I know. Worst night ever was about minus nothing sleeping in a car. Brrrr. No mattress, just a 3-piece work suit and a briefcase for a pillow, but at least it was a station wagon so I could stretch out.
     
  22. Ozgirl

    Ozgirl Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    -5 in the ice hotel in Sweden, -14 'outside'

    -25 rated sleeping bag!
     
  23. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    -23 for me, on top of a mountain, full moon, we could actually watch the snow hoaring. I was in my old one planet, which was OK, but my thermarest wasn't quite up to it, so a restless night of turning.

    I agree that layering can work as @zac150 does it, IMO a down jacket on top of the sleeping bag is warmer than wearing it inside the bag.

    If you are going to sleep in the snow, comfort level of -15 at least IMO.
     
  24. Interruptedbyfireworks

    Interruptedbyfireworks One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Not as much as I would like - I’ve been a bit scared to leave the house. Thanks for the reminder though, I need to up my game :thumbs:
     
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  25. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    The single most important thing to do between now and Winter is exercise and regular.

    And not only bike, you must get good kms walking with a little day pack. Target 10kms a day on weekend and at at least 2 x 5kms during the week.
     
  26. nezumi

    nezumi One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    So much this. Pre-Covid19, I was cycling 40-50kms/day commuting. I went on one hike and found myself out of breath quite quickly. It's a different activity, and while a good base level of fitness will help you, it can't replace training in the activity itself (or as best you can manage out-of-season).
     
  27. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Road riding does something, but not much. Proper mountain biking is the closest thing I have found to skiing, in muscle use, breathing, body position, and feel.
     
  28. zac150

    zac150 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    In terms of exercise I also believe in strength work, so many people forget about it, they can walk all day without a pack, but add weight and it’s like a hand brake has been pulled.

    that core strength that allows the pack to be thrown on the back time and time again is priceless.
     
  29. Interruptedbyfireworks

    Interruptedbyfireworks One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    So what you’re all saying is that I’m in for a world of hurt...woohoo!
     
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  30. zac150

    zac150 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    yep
     
  31. Interruptedbyfireworks

    Interruptedbyfireworks One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    This is what I’ve been focusing on.

    Need to up the cardio, and more specifically walking I reckon.

    Would jogging be an ok substitute?
     
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  32. zac150

    zac150 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Jogging is fine
     
  33. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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  34. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Not if you do the pre-work.

    Cycling does not load the knees or associated muscles enough. You also need to push pretty hard to get enough heart lung. Cycling is just too efficient a mode of transport. OK as a cross train thing but it is not core.

    If you like jogging. But I find more walking is better, and walk up hill to get the heart lung work happening.

    My observation is more people pick up injuries or niggling strains and so on when they jog unless they have a long background in this. The walking plan reduces this risk.

    The other thing is if you do 10kms walk on Sat and Sun it is at least 2 hours of movement each session. And it's the 2 hours that is also important. A 1/2 hour or 1 hour jog does not strain the leg system that you will later want to spend 2 hours at a time in mostly continuous movement.
     
  35. skull

    skull One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    I found riding gave me better pack strength then running. This is carrying 50 plus kilo packs out in the bush.
     
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  36. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yes, energy loading is important. But it's important to be balanced. So with each slice and each stubby alternate which hand you are holding said item in so your left and right side are equally exercised in strength and fine motor control.
     
  37. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    Sage words indeed.
     
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  38. skull

    skull One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    I mentioned above, spent 25 years as a grunt and 12 of those I was full time. With the exception of actually being out in the bush lugging our marching order I found cycling gave me the best training to assist with humping. Running just gave me injuries

    Mind you we also did a lot of humping, my longest was an 80 clicker, my heaviest back and set up would been roughly 2/3rds of my bodyweight.
     
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  39. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Your background is well removed from the OP's. I do note your comment on running.

    The Army is a bit crazy with their manpower expectations. But this is a whole separate topic.
     
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  40. kylep

    kylep Cage rattler Ski Pass: Gold

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    This needs highlighting. Commuting or road riding, and I'd agree with @skifree
    MTB involves a lot more dynamic loading, and you don't want to see my heart lung reaction. Whatever the base method, surely a lot of up/down and uneven surface is very beneficial
     
  41. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Its good for core strength, cardio, and muscle, but I would also agree with @skifree that carrying a pack changes load on joints, and walking with a pack is the most fun way to work that. I definitely find MTB keeps my ski muscles/fitness up.
     
  42. skull

    skull One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    ride up hills. Save the knees.
     
  43. kylep

    kylep Cage rattler Ski Pass: Gold

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    I'll also do my usual recommendation of stair climbing. Oh, and climbing around National Parks for half the summer in the dark lugging gear ;)
     
  44. Ozgirl

    Ozgirl Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    OP has a defence background...
     
  45. zac150

    zac150 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Others have more or less beat me to it, but I was going to say the difference is your riding, you do single trail mtn biking which has a lot of core and upper body work. I agree this is great strength work.

    personally I think People get a little precious about this topic, - the best thing for hiking is hiking- if you doing regular exercise great a few sessions of hiking with a pack and the body will adjust.
     
  46. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    You need a whole body work out .Team Bears could supervise such activity !Core training very important in backcountry .
     
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  47. Interruptedbyfireworks

    Interruptedbyfireworks One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Ok I will do some walking.

    I got injuries from doing too many half marathons around 6-7 years ago so jogging isn’t good for me anyway.

    I just get scared walking around quangers and running/cycling feels safer LOL
     
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  48. skull

    skull One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    LOL

    There is some ok singletrack in Jerra on the hill.
     
  49. Interruptedbyfireworks

    Interruptedbyfireworks One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    True, but army ≠ navy LOL
     
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  50. Ozgirl

    Ozgirl Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    You still had fitness!

    you're fitter than me! (and more flexible too!)