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Question Hakuba - where does it from here?

Discussion in 'Japan' started by tr+h, Jan 12, 2019.

  1. tr+h

    tr+h One of Us

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    Just heading home from 8 days skiing at 9 of their ski fields.

    We’ve had a great time, but I wonder how healthy the resorts are and where they are heading. Clearly some of the lifts and Gondolas look like they were built courtesy is the 1988 Winter Olympics, but that was 30 years ago. I assume the bus linkage between resorts is courtesy of that too. And Japan loves public transport.

    But I observed lifts that appear to have not been used in a long time. One of the chairs at sun alpine/Kashimayari is actually falling sideways down the hill and a grove of pine trees has grown around it. There are also adandoned and derelict buildings scattered all around the resorts. Particularly noticeable the further the resort is away from Happo.

    Question 1. Upgrading lift linkage across resorts. There appears to be surplus lifts in the resorts. Some of the resorts appear to be close enough that a linkage lift from somewhere like Iwatake to Tsugiake seems doable. A bit like the chair that links through Park City/Canyons. Happo looks linkable to Iwatake and 47.

    Question 2. What level of maintenance
     
  2. Annabuzzy

    Annabuzzy Part of the Furniture

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    The overbuilding of ski infrastructure in the 1980’s (mostly before the 1998 Nagano Games) in Japan is one the positives for Australian skiers. It means that with a little imagination you can find relatively uncrowded, untracked slopes. It also means there’s still opportunity to pick up property there if you like shovelling snow.

    The resorts in Hakuba seem to focus more on competing with each other than cooperating. You’re right. A loft each way between 47 and Happo, and then another to Iwatake, would create an enormous circuit. Some broader adoption of gates and Hakuba would be transformed.

    But I tend to like it as it is, with its quirks and tics. You kind of get used to the ridiculous bus system, and shrug your shoulders at the customer unfriendly and illogical elements. “It’s Japan!!”

    In time more lifts will be built. But I doubt they’ll be built between resorts for some time yet. As for Sun Alpina though I think that will be a labour of love.
     
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  3. Zimbooo

    Zimbooo One of Us

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    Vail will buy the land of each land owner in the valley, link it all and all will be solved ...........apart from the future crowds. :p
     
  4. ponyrider

    ponyrider Addicted

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    Ahhh ...you forget to mention Vail 'solving' the issue of AUD$70 lift tickets. Walk-up day pass? That'll be Y15,000 thanks :crap:
     
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  5. M_G

    M_G M_G_ = Make skiing great again Ski Pass: Gold

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    Skiing is cheap in Japan because of low wages, aging infrastructure and deflation. There will come a point where many resorts will close because they can't afford to put in new lifts. Those that do will raise ticket prices which will send cheap arse Aussie tourists elsewhere bitterly complaining about how it has changed.
     
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  6. Lucky Pete

    Lucky Pete One of Us

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    Land ownership here is VERY complicated making it all but impossible for someone like Vail to come in and frankly the way they vertically integrate is NOT what we want in Hakuba as it would be Sayonora to many small local businesses.

    There are also still more Japanese buying day tickets than gaijin so the option of ramping up day ticket prices would have a huge impact on cash flows as nihonjin customers vanish.

    The lift companies themselves are barely economic as I understand it so Im not sure where the badly needed capital investment will come from but I would not be surprised to see NSD change hands, possibly to a non Japan based company that may see change.

    The biggest issue here is not so much the infrastructure but the management and utilisation of what we have. Lift/zone management here has been abysmal at some places this year. This after several years of feedback too which is most disappointing.

    Re the old lifts - there is a great reluctance by the ski resorts to pull old lifts out as once removed they can not be replaced although Iwatake has made some progess in this regard. As for the old buildings, totally agree that these need to be demolished which could be done cheaply.

    Maintenance wise I am in doubt that all that is needed is done otherwise I wouldnt ride them myself most days! :)
     
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  7. LMB

    LMB Old but definitely not Crusty! Ski Pass: Gold

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    Exactly the scenario the Niseko United area (and now Rusutsu and Kiroro) find themselves.
    The upgrades, new infrastructure, new services go in, lift prices go up, “...it’s not Japan, it’s not authentic, there’s too many people...”. You’ve kinda gotta go one way or another.
     
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  8. Piste Again

    Piste Again Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    I'm just finishing up after 3 days skiing Hakuba after 4 at Madarao. My observations :

    1 - The snow is crap compared to Madarao. Today at Happo One was more like a reasonably good day at Thredbo - lots of dust on crust apart from most of the red runs which were bloody serious mogul fields. Yesterday at Iwatake half the runs were closed and there were muddy patches that got bigger as the day wore on. I hit rocks, which is not what you expect in Japan. And this is after the big dump that dropped half a metre here 3 nights ago!

    2- Lift tickets are reasonable but on-mountain food and drink is stupidly expensive. On thursday, while waiting for friends to arrive, I bought a coffee at the base of Tsugaike. 900 yen ($A11.50) and it was rubbish. Yesterday at Iwatake I was going to buy a hot chocolate at lunch but it was 700 yen ($A9.00) so I opted for the 550 yen ($A7.00) coffee, which at least was drinkable. And $A34.50 for two large beers and a small coke at the end of the day. I thought I was in Vail or Whistler for a while there! And today almost $A11 for a friggin 4 and 20 pie (the cheapest lunch option) and $A12 for a large beer.

    3 - Rust. Most of the lift towers look like the Titanic. Flaking paint and flaking red metal, and rust stains on the lift cables in places.

    4 - Crowds. Today, admittedly a Saturday, made Perisher Front Valley in school holidays look positively deserted. Iwatake was deserted on Thursday but Happo One was dangerous today. I had to adopt my "human porcupine" defence at times, waving the ski poles around behind me with the tips at face height to deter people coming too close.

    The resorts here are nice and big with decent vertical and long pistes, but spoiled by massive overcharging and, for now, pretty ordinary snow. If they charged like the rest of Honshu and the snow was better it'd be a great destination but I can't in all honesty say it's value for money after my experience. My first impressions coming from Madarao were that this looked like Hakuba would crap all over it, but my lasting impression is the opposite.
     
  9. M_G

    M_G M_G_ = Make skiing great again Ski Pass: Gold

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    1. Is it possible that if you'd been in Madarao last and Hakuba first you'd think differently about snow conditions? Madarao had a big dump while you were there while Hakuba didn't.
    4. It's a holiday weekend. It was very busy in Madarao too. Once again, swap days around and you'd probably think differently.

    I'm agnostic over the joys and troubles of both resorts but think timing played a part for you.
     
  10. mannyk

    mannyk One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    That's the first time I have heard of expensive food on the slopes in Hakuba.. quite surprised and a disappointed..
     
  11. 2ESki

    2ESki Addicted

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    The Katsu curry and or Ramen was between 950 and 1150 yen, I thought was very reasonable compared to Aussie ski slopes, found it fresh, filling and tasty. :thumbs:
     
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  12. Tanuki

    Tanuki A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Sheesh,I don't recall it being so expensive for food and bev.
     
  13. Donzah

    Donzah Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    It's not . . Though if you go to the wrong spots.

    I also don't buy coffee or euro drinks up the hill.
    Beer I usually buy long necks from the ice cream stores.
     
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  14. Donzah

    Donzah Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I'd also never ride Happo.
    Rule one.
     
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  15. mannyk

    mannyk One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Ice cream stores? "Please explain"
     
  16. Donzah

    Donzah Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Stores that sell soft serves.
    Often have long neck beers
     
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  17. Piste Again

    Piste Again Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Actually the timing wasn't as one-sided as that. The big dump was the night before I transferred from Madarao to Hakuba, so I didn't get the benefit of it at Madarao but I did at Hakuba. But I think by the time the system got across here it had dumped a lot of its snow.

    The crowds at Hakuba on thursday and friday were pretty thin, but yesterday was nuts. I skied the previous sunday at Madarao and the crowds that day were a fraction of what they were here yesterday.

    To be fair, they tell me Happo One gets some of the worst crowds so Saturday probably wasn't the best day to ski there, but to an extent I'm at the mercy of where the others in the lodge are sliding because I'm relying on the lodge staff to drive me to and from.
     
  18. Piste Again

    Piste Again Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Those prices (apart from the hot chocolate) were at the base, not up on the hill.
     
  19. Donzah

    Donzah Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Where have you skied so far?
     
  20. LMB

    LMB Old but definitely not Crusty! Ski Pass: Gold

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    Amen.
    ^local skijo food.

    The more western options of coffee, coke and 4 and 20 pie were the items mentioned - I’m not surprised they were more expensive.

    But I’m sorry you didn’t have a good time @Piste Again. I’ve also been at Happo in marginal conditions, still had fun, but not the same kind of exhuberance as you’ll have anywhere in excellent conditions. And it’s most definitely near the bottom of my list for places to go. Iwatake on the other hand....
     
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  21. Donzah

    Donzah Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Same same.
    I meant in resort.
    As opposed to in Echoland
     
  22. Lucky Pete

    Lucky Pete One of Us

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    Comparing snow conditions at two different places at two different times is flawed at best, particularly as our last snowfall was Wednesday. Complaining about crowds at one of the most popular resort areas in Honshu, at the most popular resort in that area for Japanese guests, on a long weekend, in peak season where the weather has been really nice, is too.

    As for the prices on mountain I will agree with you there to a point. Happo and NSD in particular received plenty of feedback at the end of last season re the quality of their food and the pricing. If the drinks are that expensive that is a bit steep to say the least. Realistically a meal for a 1000 is very well priced, particularly as most of those places are highly seasonal and wage growth in the valley has been real this year. Using Aussie dollars for comparison is flawed to say the least though as that is all about the exchange rate and not about local pricing.

    If you want value beers, coffee, food etc come down to Lucky Petes, we will look after you. Forum members even get a discount although we dont sell pies are they are too expensive for me to buy! :)

    Re the snow, wait until Wednesday morning ....... Last week I had my best day resort riding, ever, anywhere. This coming week may offer the same although it will be hard to top last week :)

    PS We have offered to help paint at the resorts, those offers have been turned down to date :)
     
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  23. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Honestly, some of what you're saying isn't right. And I've spent maybe 110 days at Hakuba.
    1. Snow conditions at either place cannot be compared at different times. A big dump of 50cm, is not a big dump, at least to cover up low cover at the bottom. You choose to stay high in those situation.
    2. Food and drink stupidly expensive? If it was, it was a selection issue, not the intrinsic price. And you didn't mention food, only coffee.
    3. Rust. True.
    4. Rule number one for me: NEVER ski Happo on a weekend. The end.

    Your impression is not near to reality, mainly related to price.... and I dare say you got the all valley pass, which adds maybe 700yen/day to the lift costs?

    See here:
    https://www.ski.com.au/xf/threads/japan-general-tips-for-when-and-where-to-go-for-snow.69888/
    Posted 4 years ago:
     
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  24. cookieman

    cookieman One of Us

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    I also have just completed 2 weeks at Hakuba Valley
    We skiid all the resort's from goryu to Cortina.
    My kids and some of the group have been before so we had inside information.
    I found Snow conditions varied and below expectations , but we still skiid powder and high quality groomers.the area can still do with another half a metre of snow.we had 2 fabulous powder days at happo and cortina.very good but not great as temps were just below zero so once tracked out it was hard work for me.the kids had more fun jumping off in the trees but they are much better skiers. Infrastructure is certainly old but that doesn't really bother me.food is quite good and on par or cheaper with oz if you know where to go.
    Pros. Cultural experience, very long runs, powder (limited this time), cheaper than Oz.
    Cons. Borderline If not full cover and powder not consistent.
    The Japanese are lovely people and rely on the Australian ski tourists
     
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  25. Lucky Pete

    Lucky Pete One of Us

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    That pic makes me want to re-think my position of never going to Happo! Looks like a cracker of a day! Stoked for you Cookieman.
     
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  26. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    I go to Happo.... you just need to pick the right day.
     
  27. Donzah

    Donzah Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Usually the 29th of February
     
  28. Piste Again

    Piste Again Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    A lot of what you say is probably true, I guess my point is that I found the snow at Madarao was better before the dump that it was at Hakuba after the dump. It could well come down to the same kind of factors that sometimes give the NSW resorts a dump and the Vic ones rain back home.

    Food, other than the expensive pie, wasn't such a problem as I was sticking to miso soup and the odd ramen for lunch. The beers were at the end of the day while waiting for my lift back to the lodge (the lift home was usually 4 or 4.30pm but I usually give up earlier than that as the light gets too flat once the sun gets low) so buying them at Echoland wasn't an option.

    I don't have any complaint about lift prices at either resort, especially when compared to Australia or North America. At both Hakuba and Madarao I've been buying them at the resorts day-by-day simply for the flexibility. At Madarao there was one day where the cloud blew in and the light was too flat to ski safely so I bailed on the whole day - saving a day's lift pass in the process.

    And yes, after finishing up at Happo One yesterday the lodge guys did chuckle and say it gets busy on weekends and also told me that it's a long weekend. Would've been nicer to know that in advance and I'd have gone somewhere less crowded. I'll put that down to experience.
     
  29. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    You can get really good, huge katsu curry, or hash beef between 900-1100yen. And lots of other cheap stuff.
     
  30. Donzah

    Donzah Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I actually like skyline at Happo. Except it's a pinch point and slow old double.
    I've also had fun down low at Shirakaba , Nakiyama etc in a big storm.
     
  31. Donzah

    Donzah Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    If you're buying day passes, you could be using coupons to entitle you to a 1000 yen lunch for free.
     
  32. Donzah

    Donzah Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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  33. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    This.

    If I was to use that methodology, based on a week I spent in Hakuba where we saw something like 250cm fall, I'd be considering it the snowiest place in the world.

    It's the deepest powder I have ever skied, but I do acknowledge that I got lucky (well not really cos I had @Sandy messaging me when I was in Niseko saying 'get your ass down here it's gunna go mental') - and I also realise that there are low tide moments too.
     
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  34. Piste Again

    Piste Again Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    I found those. Miso soup 150 yen at Iwatake. Pork Miso Soup - quite a decent meal - 500 yen at Madarao. Just don't get a coffee or hot chocolate to go with it.

    That's a hidden gem they don't tell you about! Mind you, none of those applied to me as I didn't ski the places on that list. My first 2 days were chosen by the 8 other people I was skiing with and the last day was the lodge's choice.
     
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  35. Donzah

    Donzah Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I think a good lodge will sell you cheaper lift tickets, give you coupons to use.
     
  36. bluestick

    bluestick One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    This is stating the obvious but I mainly like going skiing in Japan because on all of the 10 odd trips so far I have always found easy access fresh tracks on or very near piste all day on most days. Its hard to get this at the big resorts in Hakuba (and Niseko and a few others around the country) where they becomes skied out by 10 - 11 am. So for me the price of food, rusty lifts and snow quality are not an issue, just go somewhere else. BTW these issues don't seem to impact on visitation.
     
  37. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Goes to show that you shouldn't listen to other people, particularly those who have a bucket list rather than selection criteria ;)
     
  38. d15812

    d15812 Guest

    Maybe not as easy/cheap as you may think.

    I recent had to dispose of the following:
    - plasterboard from walls and ceiling (5 rooms)
    - 2 old unit baths
    - 3 old bed and a few cabinets
    It was all broken down and stacked in neat piles.

    Cost me JPY1.2M!
     
  39. Shrike

    Shrike Hard Yards

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    Will probably pop in to see you for lunch on the 3rd :) is there anything you would like brought from Australia?
     
  40. Sandy

    Sandy Dark Sith Lord of the Pool Room Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    You can find tracks at Hakuba if you know where to look .. ... Until 3pm
     
  41. Lucky Pete

    Lucky Pete One of Us

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    Wow what a generous offer, thanks so much but Im all good thanks!!!! :) See you then :)
     
  42. tr+h

    tr+h One of Us

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    Can I add that when looking at their grooming equipment, it all looked shiny and new, so money has been spent there recently.

    And excusing weather factors lower down that effected the quality of the runs(especially at Iwatake), the groomed runs were well maintained.
     
  43. Tanuki

    Tanuki A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Hater! Get over it, Happo is great :) But yeah, my sister is there now and just posted that she had Ramen and a beer for $15AUD @ Happo = happy days.
     
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  44. Donzah

    Donzah Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Not a hater.
    I've probably ridden 20 days there.
    I just dislike the "I've skied Hakuba ... Well actually I've done the majority of my days at Happo". It's the resort that's promoted the most.
    The other resorts in the valley need patronage. Or they will die.
    Three have gone belly up in the last ten years.
     
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  45. Zimbooo

    Zimbooo One of Us

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    Me confused about the rule number one.
     
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  46. Donzah

    Donzah Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Unfortunately rule number one evolved over time
     
  47. Annabuzzy

    Annabuzzy Part of the Furniture

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    I’d avoid Happo on a weekend
     
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  48. Zimbooo

    Zimbooo One of Us

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    Well, maybe it's better to let others do the same ?
     
  49. Zimbooo

    Zimbooo One of Us

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    100%
     
  50. Donzah

    Donzah Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Sure.
    Don't touch that
    It's hot

    Person A touches it