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Horses In National Parks, A Discussion.

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by Greybeard, Sep 10, 2018.

  1. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us

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    If you want a giggle look for this post on RR nutbag group. Carry on about Thredbo being owned by China, do gooders not carrying about the animals killed. No one pointing out it is inside the resort and on the alignment of the old lift... f ing morons
     

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  2. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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  3. Edgecrusher

    Edgecrusher Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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  4. Edgecrusher

    Edgecrusher Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Crazy Phil is very quick to delete comments on that page that challenge his views. Took all of five minutes.
    And to boot you from the group too. Seems they only want an echo chamber.
     
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  5. POW_hungry

    POW_hungry Part of the Furniture Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Sounds like you went a little too hard, early...
     
  6. Edgecrusher

    Edgecrusher Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    I suggested that i couldn’t believe any Australian would oppose a policy that protects endemic flora and fauna and so strongly supports protecting an introduced and damaging pest.
     
  7. zapruda

    zapruda One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    I recall a whole exhibit at the Australian National Museum that speaks to the damage that rabbits caused throughout the country. Hard to believe that in 2020 we are still facing the same issues.

    maybe one day we will have a CSIRO Brumby hut like the Rabbit hut out at Davies plain...
     
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  8. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us

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    Well he set his trolls on a chap called Alasdair Tutt for posting a scientific paper that pointed out the damage ferals called, along with calling on them to "dob" said Tutt into Centrelink despite having no proof of fraud by Tutt (who lives O/S anyway)
     
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  9. Edgecrusher

    Edgecrusher Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    I see he’s also suggesting people “dob” in shooters too. “Dobbing” people in for things is <cringe> rather “unAustralian” behaviour isn’t it? These Aussie flag waving types with their strongly nationalist views are rather irony impaired, aren’t they?
     
  10. Edgecrusher

    Edgecrusher Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    But but “rabbits are part of Australia’s history!” We need to protect them and the heritage associated with trapping and shooting rabbits!
     
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  11. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us

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    If they knew who I worked for, my families heritage (put it this way my family was in the Snowys a lot longer than all these heritage types. Not many families that can trace a direct line back to the owners of one of the homesteads on Snowy Plains) and what I've done (operationally deployed to the Middle East) but think the ferals should go, it would cause their collective neuron to pop.
     
  12. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Where would we be without the akubra?
     
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  13. zapruda

    zapruda One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    certainly not wearing horse hats.
     
  14. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us

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    Wouldn't this be deceptive marketing, most of people leaving reviews have never been clients...
     
  15. Edgecrusher

    Edgecrusher Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    wow.
    I wonder whether they think taking on the matter has been worth the effort.
    One of the lawyers in the matter will have signed and filed a proper basis certificate. It makes me wonder whether they gave it any real consideration given the VSCA held today that Phil didn’t even have standing.
     
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  16. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us

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    Well apparently they've earnt $190k from this exercise so far....
     
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  17. Edgecrusher

    Edgecrusher Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    But yet they felt the need to jump on FB to complain about being spammed and attacked and seeking positive google reviews. It reeks of desperation.
     
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  18. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    You would be called a traitor.
    This tells me there are many people who are very much against keeping the horses there with 1000's of email flooding in.
    I am wondering when Phil is going to claim his counsel was inept and sue them. Perhaps Phil and the family will be able to move in with one of them once the family home is sold.
    It also sounds very unethical as they are asking for reviews from people who were not clients.
     
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  19. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    The quiet majority

     
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  20. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us

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    Also threatened to sue for defamation someone who put up a 1 star review that pointed out what they did. For a lawyer, not real smart a statement of fact isn't defamation.
     

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  21. Jacko4650

    Jacko4650 One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    My understanding is that this is illegal if they are asking people who are not clients. It is a form of fraud. Google should be advised for Google Reviews and Facebook for theirs.
     
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  22. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    If you are a member of RR does that not make you a client of sorts?
     
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  23. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us

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    I think that would be exceptionally tenuous.
     
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  24. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    I suspect that your understanding is not correct.
     
  25. Jacko4650

    Jacko4650 One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Am I correct is thinking he is threatening to sue somebody who gave a poor review on the basis of him being unprofessional by asking people to falsely give him good reviews? The poster should be able to sue him for threatening behaviour. It is definitely unprofessional to ask people to give any kind of review if they are not or have not been clients. That is of course unless he thinks Google or Facebook reviews are popularity contests; a completely subjective and useless measure.
     
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  26. Jacko4650

    Jacko4650 One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    If its not legal, it is not permitted by Google (not sure about Facebook where they seem to allow anything?). In our industry, we can get false reviews removed by Google or Tripadviser, Booking.com etc and we are permitted to pursue legal action. If not illegal, false reviews harm the "value" of the review product (eg: Google reviews) because they degrade credibility. If it's not illegal, it damn well should be and lawmakers need to do their jobs accordingly.
     
  27. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us

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    This kind of looks Phil admitting he knew it wouldn't work but he just wanted to delay things and is going to try the same thing in the future.(also says a lot about his lawyers) Would this make him a vexatious litigant? Also pretty sure that Parks can still close the area where shooting is happening whenever they want. Ski season isn't in legislation, Parks duty to control ferals and manage national parks is.
     
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  28. Edgecrusher

    Edgecrusher Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    That’s why I mentioned the proper basis certification that one of his lawyers needed to sign and file in the proceeding. Costs can be ordered against lawyers personally if they’ve knowingly signed the document and filed it without believing the allegations or statements of fact contained in the pleadings (or originating motion) have a proper basis.

    if Phil’s purpose was simply to bring these actions for the purposes of delay then I wonder if PV’s lawyers considered seeking costs not only against Phil but also his lawyers for bringing the application if it’s only purpose was to delay the cull.

    Oh, and does anyone want to break it to Phil about what happened to his hero Ned?
     
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  29. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    His lawyers seem very similar in that they also are very quick to pull the defamation 'sue' trigger or at least threaten it for nothing.
     
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  30. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us

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    What's the lawyers reputation like, serious or ambulance chasers? This seems to be doing damage to their reputation.
     
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  31. zapruda

    zapruda One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    lots of 5 star google reviews. They must be amazing.
     
  32. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us

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    ROFLROFL
     
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  33. Newsteve

    Newsteve Early Days

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    Observing the way things have gone in NSW, Delay has always been the strategy here.
    we are told .."we need to do more science/surveys/head counts/impacts etc......" Every action is designed to delay actual progress on reducing horse numbers. Even agreeing to trap and rehome, is an action so inefficient and costly it can not be ramped up to make an impact on the numbers.
     
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  34. zapruda

    zapruda One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Some more good news. Cochran is stepping back from the “Brumby issue”.

     
  35. zapruda

    zapruda One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    The high school drama is amazing.

     
  36. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us

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    Cochran, an actual politician, versus Maguire, a wanna be politican of the Pauline Hanson ilk. Better get some popcorn
     
  37. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    When the original cohort that Cochran mentions moved beyond local reasons for wanting horses to remain in the KNP (brumby running) and enlisted the aid of wider support via social media they lost control of the narrative. I had conversations with some on the peripheral of the "original families" about taking their win of a managed herd of 600 in the north end of the park as offered in 2016 and building on that because it should be viewed as a massive win for their cause. Alas Cochrane and the political opportunist Barilaro screwed this win into the Brumby Heritage Bill which only really served to bring every crazy to the cause and so here we are with types such as Phil Maguire and Alan Lanyon and their "every cause" cohort of crazies crapping on everyone from a great height.

    The brumby issue has divided communities for far too long and mostly people, with far more important issues of daily life, have had enough of the whole mad shizzle.

    At a guess, Cochran has woken up to Barilaro and his shallow opportunism
     
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  38. Nicko4334

    Nicko4334 Hard Yards

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    PC has been misinterpreted since about forever. Woody you are the most accurate, with the original objective to preserve a few brumbies around the northern end.
    At the time (decades ago) I agreed with this and was most concerned that all the horses would be eradicated. There is stock up there (those with the copper manes) that harks directly back to when Yarralumla was a farm. The greys have their own story.

    My take on this, and one that the Fenner academics could never grasp, is that, for PC, this was never about the brumby (much), and certainly never about a trail riding business. The Brumby simply represented all that had been previously lost. Be it the hydro scheme or the Park, an entire community and lifestyle was effectively lost. Those that remain haven't forgotten. Most have moved on.

    They certainly haven't forgotten that the wild horses were always removed and culled.

    My guess: PC is getting on. There are more pressing matters and many other interests. He has played his cards as well as could have (rightly or wrongly) and he can see the complete cl0sterf#ck that the debate has become. He's a clever fellow. He knows when to hold 'em and when to fold 'em. It seems he is folding them!

    Over the decades the brumby experience has gone from an occasional fleeting glimpse for those with patience, to everyday roadkill.

    Something has to give.
     
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  39. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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  40. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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  41. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    There will be a doco at least. Trick is to make sure it tells the truth.
     
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  42. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us

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    So Farmer Phil is a master strategist who keeps winning? Well if your measure of success is spending other people's money while constantly lodging court cases where you're found to have no standing is what you think winning is, then maybe that's a strategy. However I doubt that next time PV will be so gentlemanly to hold off on shooting while appeals are lodged.

     
  43. Edgecrusher

    Edgecrusher Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Is he a lawyer, or the president of the USA?
     
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  44. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Maguire is too thick in the head and thin in the skin to be a politician.
     
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  45. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    You have to wonder if Roberts Gray are charging for all the FB posts. Every time I call my solicitor and speak with the receptionist or send an email to confirm something I get charged. If the email is more than a paragraph it costs double. The master strategist is probably OK paying for it with the OPM that comes in as a result.
     
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  46. Edgecrusher

    Edgecrusher Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Perhaps Rhys and his firm consider this activity to be Business Development?
    I did check out the firm's website last week to check them out. I haven't come across them before and Rhys' post struck me as rather odd. I certainly wouldn't be posting stuff like that about matters that I was currently working on. Thinking about it a little further, I think there's some issues about the way in which Rhys and his firm are conducting themselves. I previously mentioned the Civil Procedure Act (CPA) issues. Here we have Rhys alluding to Phil's strategy - which was to file an application seeking an injunction, and to then file an appeal of that decision, with the purpose of stalling PV from shooting the feral horses. That could be considered as an abuse of process, or otherwise lacking a "proper basis".

    Section 42 of the CPA requires a legal practitioner representing a litigant to file a Proper Basis Certification, certifying that on the factual and legal material available to them:

    (a) each allegation of fact in the document has a proper basis;

    (b) each denial in the document has a proper basis;

    (c) there is a proper basis for each non-admission in the document.

    Meanwhile, section 18 of the CPA provides that:

    A person to whom the overarching obligations apply must not make any claim or make a response to any claim in a civil proceeding that—

    (a) is frivolous; or

    (b) is vexatious; or

    (c) is an abuse of process; or

    (d) does not, on the factual and legal material available to the person at the time of making the claim or responding to the claim, as the case requires, have a proper basis.

    The Court of Appeal found that Phil didn't even have standing. If Rhys and his firm knew of this lack of a proper basis, or otherwise used these applications simply to stall PV, and filed a Proper Basis Certification with the Court as part of the proceeding, then potentially Rhys and the firm could be in breach of their CPA obligations. The Court could order, pursuant to section 29 of the CPA, that Rhys and his firm pay some or all of PV's legal costs.

    Rhys' post could be interpreted as the firm knowing from the start that the purpose of the litigation was not to seek an injunction at all - it was to use the legal process as a means of stalling PV.
     
  47. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    I suspect the crowing about the stalling the PV planned actions is a saving of face set of comments from the Maguire camp.

    They may very well have thought they could win the appeal, committed folks are sometimes blind to the hopelessness of their position. But you would have thought good legal advice would have made an accurate assessment and provided appropriate advice. But based on the public comments from the Maguire camp over the last couple of months it is very reasonable to think they would have directed their legal team to proceed regardless.
     
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  48. Edgecrusher

    Edgecrusher Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    It's one thing for Maguire and his rowdy mob of supporters to talk themselves up about "winning".
    But for one of their lawyers to make those comments?
    If they knew that this application had little to no chance of success and was being used for an ulterior motive, then PV's lawyers should (if they're given the opportunity) be making costs submissions and bringing posts like Rhys' to the attention of the bench, which I note includes CJ Ferguson.
     
  49. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    What is required as evidence for this?
     
  50. Edgecrusher

    Edgecrusher Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    As an outsider that has nothing to do with the case and hasn't seen the Orders or the judgment on the appeal, it's hard to say. But if the Court wants to hear from the parties as to the orders to be made as to costs, then usually written submissions are submitted by the parties (and perhaps oral arguments as well). An affidavit could well be sworn/affirmed by one of the lawyers acting for PV which could exhibit some of the Facebook posts being made. It's arguable that they are relevant matters which the Court should be made aware of in determining the costs orders that should be made.
     
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