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Horses In National Parks, A Discussion.

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by Greybeard, Sep 10, 2018.

  1. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    The Cochran variety of bushman takes a fleet of pack horses to carry everything including cast iron pots and pans, table and chairs, beer and food. Maybe they should also carry enough water for their horses to drink as well. I know of some who load their pack horses up with 100kg of gear each. That is actually worse for the horse than carrying a 100kg person and most horse authorities have concluded 100kg is too much for a horse to carry (a big horse too). Many horse hire businesses have now put a body weight limit on people. When you look at the size of some of these horse advocates then you see more evidence they care less about horses than their selfish desires.
     
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  2. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Here are examples of how people use falsehoods to further their agenda:
    'Even the remaining 80 Bogong High Plains brumbies, that carry the last surviving bloodline of the Walers who went to the middle east in WWI and never returned, are earmarked for extermination' RR webiste.
    The above statement is at odds with the Waler Horse Owners and Breeders Association Australia whose president stated 'the only herds that are thought to remain in the wild are currently safe and secure on Aboriginal-owned stations in the Kimberley'
    and to be a true Waler (not that it is a recognised breed) the horse cannot have any other bloodline introduced after 1945. Fact is the well known buck runners of the BHP have admitted to seeding the Bogongs to improve the line. The last entry I was able to find of Osborne Young selling horses in Wodonga was in 1914 but lets concede he bred horses for sale in WW1, it still does not make the Bogongs any more special than any other horse bred for the purpose at the time. Even the Australian Light Horse Assoc is at odds http://www.lighthorse.org.au/the-waler-a-breed-of-horse-legend-or-fact/ but recognises the ability of Australian pastoralists to breed a variety of horses suitable for military use.

    'Meanwhile, approximately 160,000 feral sambar deer are allowed to roam free in the Bogong unit of the Alpine National Park.'
    While numbers of horses are profoundly argued and counts ordered, the numbers of deer seem not to be so much of an issue. I know a thing or two about Sambar deer and they are generally solitary animals but when you put 160,000 in an area the size of BHP you would have to see a lot more of them than I do. We spend a lot of time off the normal tourist tracks and spook deer regularly because they tend to be in the thicker areas during the day. Maybe one or two at the most is all we see. Most people would not see any so how would anyone come up with 160,000. I am not saying there are not large numbers and certainly more than there are horses but numbers like this without any verifying evidence just makes these people look stupid.

    You are supposed to believe that 80 wild horses do more environmental harm than 160,000 feral deer weighing around 350kg each. No rational person believes that.

    Some people would believe the average weight of a Sambar deer is 350kg and take this on face value. Horses will be 400 - 450 kg on the Bogongs fully grown with the odd one going over 500kg. Deer on the other hand may get to 350kg and occasionally larger (fully grown male) but to imply that is an average weight is ridiculous. Hinds would max out about half that weight.

    Blatantly false information is tracked out and people with no real knowledge or experience recite it like dogma and spread it all over social media until it becomes some kind of truth. A rational person would verify information but these people lack rational thinking. It is very difficult to fight against and maybe not even worth trying for those who believe it are beyond changing their view.
     
  3. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    So when those who deliberately peddle misinformation call you a fraud you should treat those comments with the contempt they deserve. Ant has never made himself out to be any sort bushman anyway. I would say own it.
     
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  4. smokeweedeveryday

    smokeweedeveryday Hard Yards

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    have a watch of dr Don A. Driscoll's presentation on the current state of feral horses in kosi, very interesting and scary points
     
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  5. hongomania

    hongomania One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Limestone road, 3 in the group. Werent too concerned about my car

    IMG-20200820-WA0012.jpg
     
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  6. Undies

    Undies Pizza! Ski Pass: Gold

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    Time for someone to invent a hiking pole with a hidden rifle inside so that bushwalkers can do some park maintenance while strolling.
     
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  7. Newsteve

    Newsteve Hard Yards

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    Great presentation. Well worth the time to watch it all.
    Things will change, only when the politicians hear a louder voice from those in favor of removing feral horses from National Parks than they currently hear from the pro-horse lobby. (to them, voices = votes).
     
  8. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Science will never change the minds of enough people to make that voice loud enough. I hear Emma Hurst campaigning for the horses with little regard to all the other animals affected because they are there. Some little animals seem to be less important even to the animal lib people. We allow more extinction events to occur only for the reason it was humans who put the horse there so it is not the horse's fault.
    Some good take home messages from Don. It needs to be summarised and put into a video that runs no longer than 10 minutes. These pro horse people yelled and screamed for a count, got a count and now say they won't trust the count to be accurate. I am sure Donald Trump is working with them. With the pro people arguing there is so much land what difference does it make even if there were 20K horses it was good to have the other perspective. If fact there is not much land set aside for preservation compared to the amount of land horses actually occupy all over Australia. There will still be plenty of horses left to chase, even in the mountains. Can't we just put aside a small bit of land for the tiny voiceless creatures?
     
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  9. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Animal Justice Party are biggest bunch of loons/hypocrites out there. How they support feral animals, who let's face it have a pretty sorry life most of the time, over natives is beyond me.
     
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  10. Jacko4650

    Jacko4650 One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Watched a chopper this arve moving down a valley not far from Island Bend. When it hovered I wondered what it was doing; then heard quite a number of shots from a high powered weapon, semi automatic I'm guessing as there were occasional rapid shots.
    Wonder what they were shooting at?
     
  11. Chookfooter

    Chookfooter One of Us

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    Deer and pigs. I'm surprised they would be doing that around there with so many people around, they normally try to fly under the radar so to speak on these sort of activities. Sometimes shooting Bambi doesn't go over well.
     
  12. Boutros

    Boutros One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    From the Kosci alerts page:
    https://www.nationalparks.nsw.gov.au/visit-a-park/parks/kosciuszko-national-park/local-alerts

    An aerial shooting operation targeting feral pests such as pigs, deer, foxes, cats and wild dogs will take place in the Jagungal Wilderness area, Snowy Plain and areas east of Eucumbene Dam in Kosciuszko National Park.

    The program will start on Thursday 20 August to Friday 28 August 2020, inclusive, but this could change depending on weather conditions.
     
  13. Jacko4650

    Jacko4650 One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    That will explain the shots then. Thanks.
     
  14. crackson

    crackson Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Hippy van-lyfers with covid.
     
  15. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    East of Eucumbene Dam hasn’t got any National Park.
     
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  16. Myazma

    Myazma One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Can't see aerial culling in the forest valleys like around IB as being effective. Above the tree line yes but trying to shoot thru tall timber na.
     
  17. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    The aerial culls trialed in Vic over a number of areas found this to be true. I am sure they knew it would be so but had to go through the exercise. Pinnibar area was excluded from aerial deer culling because of the thick forest. It would also be why some areas of the Eastern Vic Alps would not be suitable for aerial culling of horses. On the open areas the aerial cull managed one deer every eight minutes.
     
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  18. art

    art One of Us

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    national parks chopper moved very slow and low along the tree line on long plain this morning. Didnt hear any shots. I thought they might have been counting horses as they stood out in the snow.
     
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  19. Nicko4334

    Nicko4334 Addicted

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    You're out near Long Plain today? Whilst I am in a city office?
    Listening to, the fiendish rattle, of the tramways and the buses making hurry down the street...

    I want your job!
     
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  20. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    I am sitting in my dingy little office, too.
     
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  21. art

    art One of Us

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    For some reason Im home now. Should have stayed out longer. Should get my head read.

    You are correct that I should value my job more.
     
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  22. rakugaki

    rakugaki First Runs

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  23. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    So who is Project Rural?
     
  24. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    If they were counting then the chopper would be transecting the area. Up and back over the grid. We can only speculate what they were doing. Maybe taking some big noobs for an inspection. The real answer is often less imaginative.
     
  25. art

    art One of Us

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    Sure speculation is all we have. But looking at ferals is a pretty good guess since everything else was buried in snow. It wasn't a joy ride as they spent a few hours methodically combing the tree line. Anyway just sharing an observation.

    Counts don't always have to be a on a grid. There are many sampling strategies. 2 hours would have given close to a total count on long plain and in the trees at the edge.
     
  26. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    A good observation nonetheless. It will have the nutters running stupid thinking the gun ships are there. They have better speculative conspiracy theories.
     
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  27. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Fire damage assessment?
     
  28. kylep

    kylep Cage rattler Ski Pass: Gold

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    Did someone say long plain?

     
  29. Newsteve

    Newsteve Hard Yards

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    Now that's a great way to access the backcountry! I see you kept the ski/board tracks out of frame... Hi Hi :)
     
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  30. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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  31. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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  32. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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  33. zac150

    zac150 A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    could have been a training run as well. FIL has explained it, he was heavily involved in pest management in Kosci and has run camps in Kakadu; anyway their is an art to culling especially selecting the first animal (lead mare I believe) as this reduces the spread of the animals. I may sound vague but normally these discussions involve red wine.

    anyway I’d imagine they would train in spotting etc.
     
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  34. teletripper

    teletripper One of Us

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  35. Chookfooter

    Chookfooter One of Us

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    So let me get this straight. Pork Barilaro is saving the feral horses but is prepared to break up the coalition so the koalas don't get saved. I'm struggling to see how that is the right way round.
     
  36. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    It’s perfectly logical, Koalas have done nothing for Australia whereas horses saved us from ... something and contributed to everything that is Australian.
     
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  37. Edgecrusher

    Edgecrusher Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yep, absolutely. Forget Australia riding on the sheep's back. This nation was forged by horses, and their direct descendants shall roam free in our National Parks, regardless of the damage they cause, as a reminder of their greatness to us all, and for absolutely no other reason but symbolism.

    I mean, is there any other reason to oppose their removal? What benefit do these nags' continued existence provide? Do they make some people feel good inside, knowing they're up there and roaming, when they see photos posted of them online, or for the few who venture into the Parks and see them with their own eyes? And that reason is more than enough to justify their existence, and the utility so provided sufficiently outweighs the environmental damage caused.
     
  38. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    No it's simpler than that. Barilaro is a fool who owes his political career to Cochran.
     
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  39. Chookfooter

    Chookfooter One of Us

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    Cochran has photos of Barilaro with Stormy Daniel's, for sure.
     
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  40. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    I read your sarcasm here but it should be mentioned, when tourists come to Australia they see toy Koalas everywhere starting with the airport shops. They visit nature parks to hold them. Overseas people know Australia for Koalas and Kangaroos. It seems some people living here cannot see how important these icons are to our national identity and now they have a failed glazier championing their cause. I don't think these people will be happy until all things natural to this country are completely destroyed. Bari staying on as leader of the NP and Deputy premier is untenable if a coalition is to remain. He should have been removed after the Monaro election debacle. The Nationals are trying to regain some credibility in the bush. I can't see killing off koalas as being overly popular with voters.
     
  41. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    The Nationals are pro mining, pro logging and pro urban expansion.

    Barilaro brumby madness is a cynical vote buy and his koala fcktadery is all about logging, land clearing and urban expansion.

    Barilaro is playing to the regional urban redneck tradie vote, huntn, fishn, 4WDn.
     
  42. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    In other words, Pork Barrelaro thinks he can save the Nationals by going after the Shooters party voters. Good luck with that.
     
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  43. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yes, we need a dripping with sarcasm font.
     
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  44. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    How can I be one of them and a greenie as well? I would be an enigma. And shutup @Wally, nobody asked you to comment. (Just getting in before you do).
     
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  45. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    We can be what ever we want to be but Barilaro only wants our vote
     
  46. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Spence and zapruda like this.
  47. zapruda

    zapruda One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    It’s a shame he wasn’t booted this morning. It says a lot about the state of politics in our country when a person as blatantly corrupt and idiotic as he is manages to become deputy premier of NSW.
     
  48. Chookfooter

    Chookfooter One of Us

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    He mightn't have been booted yet, but I reckon it's only a matter of time. After the Eden Monaro fiasco and now this, surely he must be finished. But then again, don't underestimate the stupidity of your average country party supporter.
     
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  49. Chaeron

    Chaeron Ski-Hike-Blade-Bike-Kayak Ski Pass: Gold

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    Koalas, Barilaro’s Trojan Horse....
     
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  50. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    This is an interesting opinion piece which puts light on the motives of Bari and the NP. https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw...in-regional-nsw-20200910-p55uhw.html#comments
    Without the NP the Libs only need two seats to hold government. If the NP walked out on the coalition then the Libs may take some seats from them next election and could govern in their own right. It could also mean a decade in the wilderness for the Libs but it would mean the end of the Nats completely. I am suggesting it is the influence of the NP in the coalition which is stopping the Libs for making sound environmental decisions. The NP have tried to get logging back in the National Parks on the Murray, have created a false narrative to protect a feral pest and now want a real Australian icon threatened further to aid development of land and put money in the pockets of the already rich. In Victoria, the NP want to return cattle to Parks and clear fell old growth forest not to mention protecting a feral pest. I wonder what concession was made for Bari to get his Heritage horse bill through. Gladys should be calling in the favour. At least for now she has put him in the corner and I suspect the unrest will fester in the NSW NP until Bari is unseated.