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Horses In National Parks, A Discussion.

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by Greybeard, Sep 10, 2018.

  1. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    These people live in a utopian world where the impractical and unworkable meet with the click of a finger. Good sum up of the helicopter darting but when that doesn't work I am sure there will be a push for ground darting. I have managed to get pretty close to some mobs of horses on foot but once they turn and run there will be no catching them unless on horseback yourself. So now we would have to train riders to shoot at a gallop. Images now of a new Lighthorse charge. Somewhat ironic it would be as well with the horses being chased allegedly the ancestors of the original mounts.
     
  2. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    You have missed one important thing. "Solutions" proposed by the brumbynuts are not meant to work.
     
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  3. teletripper

    teletripper One of Us

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    Fully agree. As I commented in another forum everyone needs to understand that for many pro horse activists the reduction of horse numbers and populations by any means are contrary to their beliefs, desires and objectives on this issue. The trialling and use of fertility control regardless of whether it is efficient and effective or not, will create some interesting divisions and tensions between compassionate conservation/animal rights activists and horse activists. As has been seen in the US wild horse situation that has applied a quasi ‘non lethal’ control policy approach to the issue and tried to use a range of fertility controls for many years, all that has been achieved is the conflict between stakeholders continues whilst the horse population continues to climb, ecosystems that the horses over populate in continue to degrade, and native species continue to suffer.
     
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  4. Chaeron

    Chaeron Ski-Hike-Blade-Bike-Kayak Ski Pass: Gold

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    Bite the bullet! Shoot the horses. State governments need to grow a spine.
     
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  5. Edgecrusher

    Edgecrusher Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    In NSW they have no issue shooting feral pigs. Why are horses treated any differently?
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2018-12-11/western-riverina-feral-pig-cull/10604376


    The cull, which took place across 30 private properties, national parks and the Nimmie-Caira wetlands, eradicated 5,644 pests including feral pigs, cats, goats, foxes and deer.

    Seems in this cull, they just shot any feral animals they came across.
     
  6. Edgecrusher

    Edgecrusher Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    That was 2018.
    This was the 2019 cull:
    https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2...to-keeping-down-feral-animal-numbers/11216010

    The ACT don't have an issue using aerial culling methods for feral horses in Namadgi NP:
    https://www.canberratimes.com.au/st...o-ahead-to-protect-namadgi-from-feral-horses/

    At least our Federal Government refers to them as "feral horses", and not "wild horses or brumbies", and recognises that they are pests:
    https://www.environment.gov.au/biod...-equus-caballus-and-feral-donkey-equus-asinus
     
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  7. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Neither does the Federal government have issues with aerial shooting. Took under 8 hours to clear the training area of Singleton barracks of 235 horses using aerial shooting (note that they used professional shooters in chartered helicopters, not the Army)

    https://www.newcastleherald.com.au/...ses-killed-per-hour-in-singleton-aerial-cull/
     
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  8. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yep, there are some calling it murder to use contraceptives. That is mental gymnastics of a gold medal standard.
     
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  9. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Not everything labeled feral are considered pests and this could be part of the problem. Legislatively in NSW there are three Acts which regulate the control of 'pests'. Horses are not listed as pests. Camels are but not cats. In Victoria the National Parks Act speaks of the eradication of exotic fauna but this only has to be done as far as practicable, we all know it would be impossible to eradicate exotic fauna. Horses have moved to one stage below pest even with the intervention of Barilaro and his heritage horse bill. The word Hack is actually an equestrian term but could apply to Barilaro as a politician - it describes the act of pleasure riding for light exercise, and as a breed, it is a type of horse used for riding and pulling carriages.
     
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  10. Edgecrusher

    Edgecrusher Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Do you recall the kangaroo cull the Army carried out at Puckapunyal during the drought? I do, because my old man worked out there for over 20 years.

    At the height of drought in 2002, the army base became a killing field when about 30,000 starving kangaroos were killed. The Department of Defence estimated at the time that the kangaroo population before the cull was in excess of 80,000.

    https://www.theage.com.au/national/...y-little-secret-activists-20131221-2zs5c.html


    Yep, we even culled the animal that appears on our currency and coat of arms, out of necessity. Didn't face anywhere near as much opposition as is taking place with the horses.
     
  11. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    I would bet if you asked one of those who are supporting the horses for cultural reasons (buck running) if Kangaroos should be culled then the answer would be certainly Yes! Because Kangaroos eat grass and that grass is meant for cattle or sheep or horses. Kangaroos are considered pests. It is all a matter of perspective. I have said it before, some of the old buck runners are saying the horses need thinning as well. Now Emma Hurst should be advocating fertility control for Kangaroos. Up until this year Wombats could be culled in Victoria. Is Australia the only country in the world which eats the animals on its coat of arms? Why don't we eat horses then?
     
  12. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    It's not quite the same, but the Gallic Roster is a more powerful symbol than their cost of arms and the French love a bit of chicken.
     
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  13. Greysrigging

    Greysrigging One of Us

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  14. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Why am I not surprised. Perhaps the Sporting Shooter Assoc insurance will pay up. There are good reason why property owners should never let anyone hunt or shoot on their properties and this is one. The membership of the SSAA increased considerably once the government required reason to own a firearm. Many idiots are able to get a licence just because they are a member. A couple of range days is all that is required. Blaming the idiots doing the shooting is only half the story. The property owners/managers should be vetting the shooters better so they should be accepting some responsibility.
     
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  15. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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  16. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    Sounds like a victory, 30 less ferals in the landscape. Shame they got such an easy death. They should have suffered the 6 hours of agony every dog, fox, possum, and quoll suffers when they are baited with 1080.
    Those backwards NT rednecks should have upgraded to motorised tansport decades ago. Horses are only good for spreading weeds, making glue and for putting into tins of pet food.
     
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  17. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Was at the "Sounds of Silence" at Uluru back in 2002. The canapes being served included little bits of kangaroo or emu on a pastry disc. I grabbed one of each, put one on top of the other and put both in my mouth. Comment was " Australian Coat of Arms"
     
  18. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    The Singleton horses were never used by the Army. They were abandoned there in the 1930s by the previous landowner when the Commonwealth resumed the property as part of setting up the barracks and training area. Didn't stop the f'wits trying to claim heritage status and using all the usual stories of the horses saving our freedom. Was given a good stiff ignoring by Chris Pyne (MinDef at the time) and eight hours later, no more horses on Singo. All the feral activists claimed they'll make them pay at ballot box the next year. We all know how that turned out with LNP returned....
     
  19. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    It certainly won't help the SSAA Farmer Assist program which it has been trying to lead with for a while.
    https://farmerassist.com.au/ and I think you are right about this story. Much more to it but not sure why Police are involved.
    I worked in the Kimberly on a property over a million acres in size. Cars and bike were used for the most part to muster but there were still times the vehicles were not able to move because it was too wet and mustering still had to be done. Horses were the only way. I can understand people who don't like horses. A bit the same as me not liking cats but horses still have a place working stock which cannot be filled with the mighty motor. They are also used in yards and feedlots on these big properties as the cattle move quieter with them. A good stock horse takes a long time to train up so there would be some considerable emotional attachment and a good stock horse is just as quick but more agile than a motorbike. I have galloped shoulder to shoulder with 1000kg of Angus bull cutting it out of a mob of cows, stopped and turned 180 degrees then back to gallop on the bull's shoulder again. That cannot be done on a motorbike.
     
  20. Greysrigging

    Greysrigging One of Us

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    Indeed... a lot more to come methinks. A lot of publicity on various local ABC formats yesterday, and one suspects, today......
    The NT Country Hour ran interviews with the Station owners/managers and they were not happy.......
     
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  21. teletripper

    teletripper One of Us

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    Fully agree, having used horses to muster cattle myself in my younger years. I think you will find most reasonable and logical people even on the Conservation land management and pro native conservation side of this dilemma have no issue at all with horses in the right landscape and setting and actually love and respect horses as a magnificent animal. I even personally support recreational horse riding in a controlled and planned manner within our parks and reserve system like most other recreational pursuits and modes of access. Just not a free for all, do what ever, when ever you like approach to our public lands. That is why this particular NT horse issue has no real relevance at all to the issue at hand of feral horses running rampant within our public conservation reserve systems. The NT horse shooting issue is a recreational hunting vs professional pest control approach Issue and firearms licensing and ownership issue debate. Unfortunately all these little side issues are often thrown in to attempt to ‘muddy the waters‘ so to speak and as a result often confuse the gullible horse loving punters to somehow build the argument that conservation land managers and native conservation minded people are all ‘horse haters’ and that the horse is about to become extinct as a species as a result.
     
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  22. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    We need that sarcasm font.

    I disagree with recreational riding in reserves.
    Cats belong in houses.
    Dogs belong in yards.
    Horses belong in paddocks. (Watching one of the locals here walk her ponies like giant dogs around town is kind of cool though).
     
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  23. teletripper

    teletripper One of Us

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    Telephat, I knew you were being sarcastic and it is always the danger with online conversations and discussions that the tone of the comment or discussion is often missed and therefor misunderstood. It is however amazing how often social media grabs, media bites and snippets are wheeled out as supposed evidence of a parties position on these issue. Without diverging off the subject at hand too much, as for the rec horse riding in reserves, I’ll emphasise again, ‘in a controlled and planned manner’. It does have some relevance because it is quite often stated as part of the narrative by the pro brumby activists that the attempts by Park managers to reduce feral horse population is just the tip of the iceberg, that the next step will be completely removing and banning recreational horse riding and attempts to eradicate introduced trout and the such nonsense. All comes back to that trust thing or lack there of I guess, and a preference to believe in conspiracies rather than facts, evidence or science. I think it is nearly 35 - 40% of the area of KNP is still available for recreational horse riding on a seasonal basis, yet the complete ‘lock out’ by protagonists is still often claimed. Many on here would be surprised to learn that horses are still, on the very rare occasion mind you, used for management purposes by staff. As with their decline in use in the pastoral and agricultural sector, it is probably a cost, convenience, and efficiency issue that has slowly seen them phased out of park management use rather than some supposed park managers hatred of and aversion to horses or concerns over impact.
     
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  24. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    I understood also @Telemark Phat was looking for a raise from someone with the comment and knowing we are now being watched I just thought about offering the balance. @teletripper has it also. I am fine with people taking a harder line but just know the extremes on either side are never going to get all they want. I also ride horses in the NP but we actually walk the areas first to ensure we do not enter sensitive and wet areas. I know how easy it is for horses to damage ground but I also see huge amounts of damage done over the long term by walkers and MTB. Most horse riders do not care about the damage and we are trying to educate them. I think you would be hard pressed to track us where we ride.
     
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  25. Ultra2.0

    Ultra2.0 Addicted

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    according to research into Barilaro dealings, he was paid $10,000 to ensure the horses were protected.
     
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  26. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    I’m sure that would be illegal if provable.
     
  27. Ultra2.0

    Ultra2.0 Addicted

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  28. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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  29. person s

    person s Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    we’re in a ‘get stuffed’ period, government-accountability-wise
     
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  30. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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  31. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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  32. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    Just did some learning. Horses eat 10 to 15 times add much feed as a goat.
     
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  33. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    In relation to body weight, horses eat between 1-2% while goats eat 3-4% but since horses weight a whole lot more they still win the volume stakes. Goats have a greater variety of roughage. Horses will eat some woody shrubs but not often. I do have one horse who loves broc and cauli. Funny enough he farts a lot when you ride him.
     
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  34. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Everyone's a critic.
     
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  35. Myazma

    Myazma One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Kiandra plains look like a well grazed paddock at moment. And the sight of feral horses makes drivers do stupid things like stop and take photos without pulling off the road grrrr.
     
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  36. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    I pondered this question. Wikipedia reckons:

    • Australia – Kangaroo.
    • Denmark – Swan.
    • Finland – Brown Bear.
    • Saudi Arabia – Camel.
    • Sweden – Elk.
    • Spain- Bull.
    • Japan – Carp.
    • Monaco – European Rabbit.
     
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  37. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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  38. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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  39. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    This article in the SMH is not saying anything new but it is keeping the information and awareness up to the public. https://www.smh.com.au/environment/...IzgsAFaFTiTkDic3XnQas6j1Uy_SZRDwTwybLqaTcois0
    Below is the response to the article from the Benambra Buck Runners group which shows how little they know about recovery after a fire.

    'The recovery of grasses after good rainfalls on the Eastern Plains has been a god send. Nature healing itself. Trusting the flawed method of a recount will just get the same result the Government Department wants. A Stakeholders Management Board will harness local knowledge and skills to manage the Brumbies. Why has Government not seen the value in that?'


    The proposed stakeholder group would be made up of a bunch of people with no environmental experience but according them they have all the skills needed to look after the land. Sonia Buckley is on the committee for the Buck Runners and she is a candidate in the local government elections this month. Her information states she is an environmentalist among other things. Fortunately council have no say and she could get herself elected purely on the basis of her last name. This could give her some footing to take on Tim Bull again at the State elections.
     
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  40. teletripper

    teletripper One of Us

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  41. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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  42. Wally

    Wally One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Just got back from a job down the Snowy River. Several horses spotted downstream of McKillop's Bridge which is the 1st time I have seen them south of the bridge.
    Also observed the aerial deer cull program in action while on the river, and was impressed with the pilots flying skills. Sounded like there were plenty of targets to choose from with the shots ringing out!
     
  43. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Wondering if these horses were pushed there because of the fires and have stayed. I have also been reading some crap from the pro-horse idiots who are saying Parks treat horses differently to all other pests because they want to shoot them. Other pests such as deer are considered game animals and are protected under legislation. Perhaps horses should be afforded the same protections as deer then recreational hunters could go to work on them as well as Parks. This sort of stuff is all about spreading a lie based on a half truth. More half truths from them quotes the National Parks Act and the section stating exotic flora and fauna are to be eradicated. They then fail to mention the sub section stating 'where practical'. We all know it is not practical or feasible to eradicate every exotic animal or plant. This same group seem to have taken on a bit of the Reclaim Kosci style by putting out a series of 'myth and fact' posts. Big problem is they do not substantiate the fact with anything other than an opposite statement. Why should the lack of factual information stop anything. It works for Trump and look were it got him.
     
  44. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    NSW Parks have no issue culling pests. They regularly aerial cull pigs, deer, foxes, etc. But because of the moratorium on aerial culling of horses in NSW they are prevented from doing it. It isn't illegal to aerial cull horses but the moratorium prevents it. So yes they do treat horses different. They don't shoot them from the air like every other feral.
     
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  45. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    The information I had was specific to Vic Parks and referred to Vic legislation. NSW legislation regarding pests is different and actually not as precise.