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Horses In National Parks, A Discussion.

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by Greybeard, Sep 10, 2018.

  1. kylep

    kylep Cage rattler Ski Pass: Gold

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    I think in heritage it was also required to be drunk, speeding and not wearing a seatbelt. If you're gonna do something, do it right and all that
     
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  2. Chaeron

    Chaeron Ski-Hike-Blade-Bike-Kayak Ski Pass: Gold

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    True dat! Gotta have a home-rolled durrie dangling from the lips too! Cf. the Nightrider or the Toecutter for proper form!
     
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  3. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Since any opposing view is deleted from the pro-horse sites and anything debunking the false narratives created by them is also deleted, I feel it is very important their views are expressed here so they can be freely discussed in an appropriate manner. The latest is blaming skiers and other recreational users of the parks (I take it that would include horseriders) now so it would seem these pages are hitting a nerve. Unsubstantiated claims also that people are being paid $1000 for comment.

    I would encourage those horse supporters to continue posting here so we can continue to debunk the false and misleading claims in a respectful manner. I am quite surprised a person of the legal profession is so caught up in spreading false facts which are easily debunked. A solicitor once told me 'the truth is not as important as what you can prove to be true'.
     
  4. Artisan

    Artisan Hard Yards

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    I’ll add to this that we don’t have megafauna records over much of Oz. The Nullarbor with its rare combination of perfect ‘archeological caves’ and climate is the main area of megafauna sites.
     
  5. Majikthise

    Majikthise Sage Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Megafauna would have been in the alps, they probably were great bioturbators. The ecology with mega fauna would be fundamentally different to the ecology now, not to mention differences in climate .
    This would apply anywhere in the continent.
    The continent once had dinosaurs so lets introduce komodo dragons..
     
  6. Artisan

    Artisan Hard Yards

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    The 60 minutes clip.

     
  7. Majikthise

    Majikthise Sage Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Do the heavy metals shed as precipitates?
     
  8. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    I'd have to go back to the literature. When I was up to date the phenomena had only been observed in sewerage treatment trials. People had been experimenting with using peat soils to remove salt from tested sewage. It worked, but the exchange of heavy metals just created a new problem.
     
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  9. teletripper

    teletripper One of Us

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    Artisan, I’ve read and considered your contributions to this thread thus far and welcome your efforts to play devils advocate on behalf of feral horse advocate. However, I fail to grasp your point about the correlation and link between past megafauna assemblages and what the current situation is with an large introduced, hard hooved feral herbivore running amok unchecked within currently threatened native flora and fauna habitats across the Australian Alps. In the process helping to push a number of native highly specialised plant, animal and ecosystems types towards complete extinction and therefore reducing overall native species biodiversity. Nor do I grasp how this provides justification for current feral horse numbers to not be appropriately controlled within a conservation land management setting which was established to protect those unique native species and ecosystems. Yes there was most likely megafauna across the current areas of the Australian Alps as evidenced by the discovery of Diprotodon fossil records on the Monaro. https://www.australiangeographic.co...ilised-jaw-of-giant-wombat-discovered-in-nsw/

    This however in my view does little in justifying the current situation where feral horses are both directly and indirectly adversely impacting threatened native flora, fauna and ecosystems, many of which are endemic only to the Australian Alps and once lost can not be replaced, (unlike feral horses). These facts of adverse impact of feral horses along with other introduced species have been well established by the same scientific processes that established that megafauna most likely existed. Refer both NSW:
    https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/...horses-equus-caballus-key-threatening-process
    and Victoria:
    https://www.environment.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0012/50241/201612-FFG-Processes-list.pdf
    and the Commonwealth:
    http://www.environment.gov.au/syste...4b0e1b52/files/novel-biota-listing-advice.pdf

    You can probably argue that the introduction of feral horses to the Australian Alps landscape some 200 years ago is just part of some accelerated human driven evolutionary process and accept that those adversely impacted native species and ecosystems will just disappear to be replaced by a new world order of introduced flora and fauna. If that is the case why intervene, manage or protect anything? Nature and evolution will just work it out. For me that would be a very sad day, when much of this continents unique native flora and fauna (which we know very little about and generally our community does not value very much) is lost, to be only found in the text books, photos and the fossil record.

    No one who is sensible denies that there are many current threats and adverse impacts to the Australian Alps bioregion: climate change, inappropriate fire regime, weeds, feral animals (including feral horses), hydro development, ski resorts, inappropriate recreational use (yes even backcountry walking and skiing at times), just to name a few. What is not sensible is to say that none of these threats or particular ones such as feral horses do not need addressing through management or mitigation where possible because the other threats and impacts exist.
     
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  10. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    Neil called me when he found that fossil, he was pretty chuffed. That fossil site is a long way from the high country.
     
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  11. teletripper

    teletripper One of Us

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    I’ll preface my comments in that whilst I in no way having any expertise on megafauna and there distribution, you could argue that the occurrence of fossil evidence on the Monaro shows that megafauna were in the region and that most likely some species of megafauna ventured over areas that we now know as the Australian Alps and also the current distribution areas of where feral horses occur.

    However as Majikthise rightly points out we know the climate, landscape and ecology of the period when those megafauna may have been there is vastly different to the period particularly post glacial 10,000 yrs BP and the situation as it presents itself now. The megafauna referenced which were large versions of our current marsupials also as far as I know has no relationship or lineage with the modern day horse or equids. As far as I know there is no fossil evidence or record of equids on the Australian continent.

    It is also generally accepted that the Australian continents current ecosystems, flora and fauna and in particular our alpine and sub alpine areas evolved in the absence of large, hard hooved ungulates including horses and deer , and that the Australian Alps are predominantly mountains of ancient and relic soil, capped with peat and vegetation cover, not just predominantly rock and ice as many geologically younger alpine and sub-alpine areas on other continents.

    I suppose what I was trying to argue was that for the feral horse activists to argue or try and justify that feral horses should be allowed to persist unmanaged within the Australian Alps because of the existence of large megafauna on the continent at some point just does not cut it with me. Whether those megafauna occurred in the area of what we now know as the Australian Alps or not, whether they had hard hooves or not, and how they became extinct really does not matter in my view as it is irrelevant to the current situation. It does not remove the fact that feral horses in significant numbers are currently having adverse impacts on the current native flora, fauna, ecosystems and catchment values.
     
    #1861 teletripper, Jan 7, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2021
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  12. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    The megafauna where released into the Australia Alps by tribal herdsmen and they where so heavy they flattened the mountains down from 3000m to 2000m.

    Bloody ferals still holding weight
     
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  13. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    You're not making any unreasonable points. However the direct evidence the jaw only says that there were Diprotodon around in a much lower part of the landscape than the high country.

    Its possible Diprotodons were in the high country. However the alps had an even lower trophic productivity than today, especially during glacials. It was colder and dryer. Due to the low productivity the only way graziers could feed their stock was to burn off each autumn.

    It would have been hard for the megafauna to make a living in the high country. Marsupials aren't ruminants (megafauna may have been, but its very inlikely in the absense of any modern equivalents or ruminant teeth in the fossil record) which severely limits what they can digest. During glacial periods the high country was dry as well with much lower precipitation and with even shorter growing seasons so its likely that the Australian high country wasn't occupied by large marsupials.
     
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  14. Artisan

    Artisan Hard Yards

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    Many things to reply to though no time just now.

    One thing I think is missed about the ice age discussion is the fact that the different altitudinal layers of plant community you see in the high country today would have been moved down hill in an ice age. When you move down hill the ground starts to get flatter thus the available area for each different type of cold adapted plant community expands exponentially.

    When you consider that there is an animal in Australia that can survive of gum leaves then I very much doubt that in millions of years of evolution there wasn’t a megafauna adapted to eat each and every bit of plant available in Oz.


    ;)
     
  15. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    More 'very much doubt' but no actual evidence to support what you say. Quite typical of the horse supporters. They just keep running the same line without substantiating it. Please keep trying as it is helping our cause every time you post something. If you were really wanting to help the cause of the feral horse then you would have stopped long ago. Perhaps a new angle as the megafauna argument has been thoroughly debated and debunked. It is getting a little tiresome.
     
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  16. Majikthise

    Majikthise Sage Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Why our mountains are only as tall as they are is because of the cumulative bioturbation and grazing of the mega fauna grazing 100's of metres from the tops. You can tell they took off all the sharp bits leaving the plateaux we have.
     
  17. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    If we (the Straylans) vaccinated the brumbies against Hendra, to protect their lineage and the health and well bean of the High Country Hoarse Men (and chicks), could we accept as an Antifa consequence native autistic iconic equines?
    Viva la Fake News.
    May the farce be with us..,
     
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  18. GS

    GS Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Stoopid beasts grazing....we could have been skiing 365 days a year
     
  19. hipo

    hipo One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Na. Would be declared a national park! All ferals would be shot.
     
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  20. Artisan

    Artisan Hard Yards

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    “...Since any opposing view is deleted from the pro-horse sites...”

    A link to these pro-horse sites please.


    :)
     
  21. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    How are you for sox and undies? Do you need someone to wipe you nose as well? You found us here so you can find them as well. It is not hard.
     
  22. Artisan

    Artisan Hard Yards

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    You made the claim of post removal. Which site is it that removes anti-horse posts ?
     
  23. Artisan

    Artisan Hard Yards

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    Majikthise, Seems some in this thread disagree with you..;)
     
  24. Edgecrusher

    Edgecrusher Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Go find it yourself. You’ve clearly got ample time to do so.
     
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  25. Artisan

    Artisan Hard Yards

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    Me farm is awash. The nearby big smoke where I normally spend the wet days is suffering an idiotic lockdown. Time I got..

    How to do a search for a supposed horse forum that bans posts is something I don’t got...;)

    I’ll take the lack of links to mean it were a false claim and move on to the next item...



    :cool:
     
  26. Artisan

    Artisan Hard Yards

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    Mostly agree there teletripper.

    Though I would posit that if it is accepted that the megafauna where part of the original environment of the Oz high country. And that they were removed by man. Then it could be argued that the resulting ‘environment’ is a man made construct that can legitimately be either modified or maintained by man.

    If we take the year 2020 as a datum then we have horses as the ‘as found’ part of the Snowys environment.. National parks, etc are seeking to have a man made impact on the current Snowys ‘environment’. I’ll work more on this concept later..;)

    Re the subject of management and control of horse numbers. Well, I think the days of just letting anything go unmanaged is long gone. There are places where the Koala population has exploded and are stripping gum trees bare. Not to mention the sheer explosion of Kangaroo numbers around Oz. So, yes, control the horse numbers.


    Reading other posts I see some wonder what my ‘side’ is in this discussion...
    I am not a hypocrite. And as a skier I want to see the Oz ski resorts and skiable area expanded substantially. Bit hard to do so if yer just made out that the horse is a problem.



    Nuff fer now..:cool:
     
  27. Edgecrusher

    Edgecrusher Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    You’ve got plenty of time to find it if you’ve got the time to post the crap in here that you’ve been doing for a few weeks now.

    it wasn’t a false claim either. Given you’ve crapped on about all kinds of horseshit in here without contributing anything of value, again I implore you to go find one of the crazy pro feral horse sites. You’ll fit in there
     
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  28. Angus_McCrory

    Angus_McCrory Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I've read some stupid shyte masqurading as reasond discussion, but at the end of the day, stupid shyte is still stupid shyte.
     
  29. Bendalong+

    Bendalong+ One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Perhaps Artisan and Taipan should start there own right wing blog!
     
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  30. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    I genuinely feel dumber for reading that shyte that was just posted by Joe/Artisan. That is close to the dumbest thing I've ever read about horses in the park and that includes the crazy cat lady from Berridale who believed nature always adapts and there was no issue with introducing any animal into any environment (including cats and polar bears)
     
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  31. Edgecrusher

    Edgecrusher Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    When you can no longer post on the US election thread but are just so desperate to post misinformation somewhere

    Facebook mustn’t be enough to scratch that itch for some, I guess...or they’ve been banned like a certain litigious pro feral horse individual that accepted thousands in donations to fund a failed application to the HCA
     
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  32. teletripper

    teletripper One of Us

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    Tele Phat, good point on the relative low productivity of the Australian Alps alpine and sub alpine grasslands and probably does account as a contributing factor for why the larger native marsupial densities are relatively low in these areas. The poor pasture productivity issue reminds me of an interesting read I had recently of ‘Losing Ground: Grazing in the Snowy Mountains 1944-1969 by John Merritt.’ https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/3789777,. (An interesting read for anyone who wants a somewhat different perspective on that history.)
    He makes reference to a scary proposal from the mountain cattlemen lease holders association i think it was in the 1950s of which I was not aware of. Wanting to aerially spread superphosphate and seeding of introduced pasture species for pasture improvement across the mountains, as even they recognised that the native pasture productivity (snow grass Poa Sp.) was so poor. Thankfully that did not proceed.
    How does this relate to the current feral horse issue? I think part of the problem is that much of the damage we see from horses in the drainage lines and wetter bog areas within the Park is because the horses are chasing the higher quality feed such as the native sedges such as Carex gaudichaudiana etc., in the drainage lines in preference to the relative poor fed of the mid slope Poa spp. grasslands. Obviously they need to go there to water as well. Another fact the horse activist deny, claiming feral horses actively avoid wet areas. Anyway, all interesting stuff!
     
  33. Jacko4650

    Jacko4650 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    You know, I think @Artisan has improved the quality of discussion on this thread. In my wildest dreams, I wouldn't have thought of some of the rationale @Artisan has made to support the presence of a destructive, introduced species into a rare National Park. That's my opinion, having grown up in Gippsland "living" amongst grazing and non-grazing plains and forests as a kid. I can vividly recall the variations between the two in the biodiversity, particularly down by creeks and natural dams. Fast forward 50 years and my camping trip to Pinch River in Kozi, whilst by no means rare Alpine country, reminded me so much of the destruction to riverbanks and waterways caused by heavy, hoofed animals. Whilst merely anecdotal, I could not, in a pink fit, see how sensitive waterways in the pristine areas would not be destroyed by feral horses.
     
  34. Angus_McCrory

    Angus_McCrory Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    My head hurt trying to find logic amongst the litany of logical fallacies. In the end I simply concluded it was an idiot trying to sound knowledgeable.... all sound and a smidgeon of fury.
     
  35. person s

    person s Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    wow - are we getting polar bears?
    do they eat cane toads?
     
  36. teletripper

    teletripper One of Us

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    Yes Artisan I am a bit confused as to what is your position on the feral horse issue and some of your previous statements as to whether they are just to draw a reaction from those on this forum thread. Is it your last para that captures your position??? From that I read that you are accusing those here of being hypocrites because they want to see feral horses controlled/removed from the Park, but it is many of these same people that support and utilise ski resorts in the Park. Is that the nub of your arguments???.
    If that is the case you assume that every one in this forum or this thread has the position that they want to see the ski resorts expand.

    A key difference for me (and one that is likely to generate a whole other debate and discussion) is that unlike you, I do not want to see an expansion of the ski resort areas within the Park as I believe that there is enough area and sacrifice been made already to cater for that need, and I believe our remaining alpine and sub-alpine areas in the Australian Alps are too unique and precious to warrant the impact of further ski resort expansion. Sure consolidate and improve what is already there, as well as most importantly improve the environmental performance of the existing resorts, but as for expansion, I disagree (as indicated a whole other discussion thread). And No I am not being a hypocrite. I enjoy my time in and utilise the resorts regularly and have for over 40 years, but I also enjoy the backcountry and wilderness areas of the Park and would argue and work vehemently to protect them.

    Unfortunately many who visit and utilise the Park probably really don’t fully appreciate the diversity and significance of the values of the area and what a limited and rare resource it is in an Australian context. As indicated, I see no ethical dilemma in responsibly utilising the current ski resort areas of the park or undertaking other appropriate recreational activities whilst also wanting to see feral horse issues within the park appropriately addressed. To imply otherwise is just a hollow ‘whataboutism’ and diversionary ploy from feral horse activists, that indicates to me their arguments and case are not very strong.
     
  37. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Fake news ....

    The reason the intergalactic Viking herdsmen introduced mega fauna to the Australia Alps was because they preferred nordic to alpine.
     
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  38. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator

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    Hannibal introduced the Alpine Swine
     
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  39. Angus_McCrory

    Angus_McCrory Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Just as long as they don't touch the alpine avi giraffes.
     
  40. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    All of them. Try it for yourself. If you go to any pro horse site you will see all the anti-horse posts that have been deleted, won't you? Perhaps you can search the sites to find some anti horse posts which have remained. It will give you something else to do. I have had many reasonable (not inflammatory) posts removed. Many others also. You seem to believe plenty of other stuff without evidence to back it up so how on earth do you not believe posts have been deleted.
     
  41. Edgecrusher

    Edgecrusher Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    The Facebook groups especially.
     
  42. teletripper

    teletripper One of Us

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    Artisan,
    I think what Explora is saying is that at least on most of Ski.Com forums open discussion on issues are encouraged even if disagreement and contrary views are part of that discussion. As long as it is done in a polite, rational and non threatening way, and if if you are going to make a claim or accusation it is encouraged to provide evidence to support your argument. I appreciate the moderators on this site for allowing and enforcing that. This can not be said for many pro feral horse websites and Facebook forums and groups.
    Here is a list of tightly controlled feral horse activist echo chambers for you to visit.
    Post a polite, measured and reasonable comment or argument in favour of the case for reducing feral horse populations in the the Australian Alps or a response to the often outlandish claims and misinformation or straight out lies put forward on these websites and Facebook pages and see how you go. You will be deleted, blocked, comments removed, verbally abused and and often threatened before you can recite, ‘The man from Snowy River’. Again to me just reinforces that they haven’t got much substance to support their arguments and position when they need to resort to such juvenile schoolyard bully tactics.
    Here is just a sample of the public ones for you.
    https://australianbrumbyalliance.org.au/
    https://victorianbrumbyassociation.org/
    https://www.savethebrumbies.org/
    https://snowymountainsbrumbysmg.webs.com/
    https://www.ruralresistance.com.au/
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/148383065948106/?ref=share
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/281286786262689/?ref=share
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/1165599150138501/?ref=share
    https://www.facebook.com/SnowyMountainBrumbySMG/

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/84756880685/?ref=share
    https://www.facebook.com/WildHorsesofNewSouthWales/

    knock yourself out!
     
  43. Chaeron

    Chaeron Ski-Hike-Blade-Bike-Kayak Ski Pass: Gold

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    And then there are those who want to reintroduce dingoes to Gariwerd-Grampians National Park, with local sheep farmers naturally concerned.

    https://www.theage.com.au/national/...ans-angers-local-farmers-20210109-p56sux.html

    I have observed galaxis high up on Mt McKay about 200m from the summit - never mind lower down in the aquaducts and elsewhere . What lovely little fish!

    On those grounds I propose we introduce sharks and alligators or at the very least killer whales or piranhas into Rocky Valley Reservoir. At the very least glacier worms or woolly mammoths.
     
  44. Edgecrusher

    Edgecrusher Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Great post and I completely agree with you. I don’t wish to see any expansion of Australian alpine resorts, nor do I think it’ll occur during my lifetime. The resorts do offer, however, great bases to allow people easy access to the bc during both white and green seasons. IMO this is important for giving many the opportunities to venture into, and to gain an appreciation of, such areas, and hopefully, understand the various threats they are being subjected to, such as from a warming climate, and from introduced pests.

    With greater numbers of people appreciating our unique alpine areas, my hope is that this results in greater pressure being placed on governments to protect such areas - and repeal such absurd legislation such as NSW’s Barilaro Act.
     
  45. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    That's actually pretty polite compared to the full on doxxing vitriol of rural resistance. Threats of physical violence and going after peoples employment were common place there.
     
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  46. Artisan

    Artisan Hard Yards

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    Going of all the abusive and shut down orientated posts in this thread from the anti horse brigade I’d say yer inventing things there teletripper. There were even a post from an anti horse poster threatening to shoot the US president... weird.

    I had a brief look-see at the supplied links and seen no indication of removed or banned posts that were against horses, though there were one mention of the trouble horse supporters have posting elsewhere. Albeit, as I’m not a member of facebook I don’t see all of the posts.


    ### Moderator's note ###
    Poorly disguised abuse deleted
    ####################
     
  47. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Because they have been removed. Duh! Perhaps the same thing happened to all the megafauna fossil records in the Alps. I even had a post removed that asked why my other post was removed. I was then banned. These people are not interested in hearing objective discussion or any view which provides valid contradictory evidence. They prefer their echo chambers and spread falsehoods which are sucked up and spread around until it becomes a pseudo (false) truth and then a mantra. Then they claim real evidence is all a lie. These tactics did not work for the orange man and they will fail here as well.

    There are some people here who I admit suffer fools less than than others. Their language is a bit more direct. A wise man knows when to shut his mouth but a fool never does and in doing so confirms to everyone what he is. Even the trolling banter is getting tiresome now. Nobody is trying to shut down the voice of the pro horse people. We have had a few here but mostly they come in with the same vitriolic abuse you read on their pages and are shut down by the mods. Not one (including you) has offered any substantive evidence to support any claim which directly relates to the benefit of horses in national parks. Now I read one of the strongest horse supporters (activists) has admitted horses do damage. Even a photo of the damage (courtesy of Reclaim Kosi) has been posted but nothing matters as long as the horses are saved.
     
  48. Chaeron

    Chaeron Ski-Hike-Blade-Bike-Kayak Ski Pass: Gold

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    I reckon we have to recognise the ‘cultural’ significance of the brumbies and celebrate their heritage and make more of the national parks being open to recreational riders.

    That maintains the social aspect of things for the pro horse lobby which is after all their main priority, rather than any practical aspect of horses being in the Parks.

    The actual financial advantage to interested parties from feral horses is insignificant.

    This approach alongside the separate and parallel emphasis on the irreversible ecological impact of feral horses in a fragile alpine environment is the way forward for their removal.

    The positive impact on the Bogong High Plains of the removal of cattle is so self-evident in areas like Mt Nelse!
     
  49. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    The studies which the pro-horse people are paying for (cash for science) is aimed at determining the negative influence to the biodiversity of removing horses from the landscape because horses have been there 'so for such a long time', adaptions have supposedly already been made. We would deduce, by inference, removal could cause the extinction or decline of some plant and animal species which are now relying on horses to survive (whereas they did not previously). In support of the horses, Charles Darwin was quoted by Craig Downer (American Ecologist) as saying words to the effect 'Every species battles for survival and when it stops battling it becomes extinct'. That could mean horses are helping the tiny creatures survive by making them battle more.

    The one thing I remember from my stats and biometry days - experimental design is critical to get the result you are seeking which will be validated by the statistics and the design can be heavily influenced by the person paying the bills. There is a big difference between paying an honourarium to volunteers for out of pocket expenses so they can canvas for signatures on a petition and paying the lion share of a study which is hoped to validate positive influences of horses on fragile environments in order to allow them to continue the damage.

    I have the GPS coordinates for all the NEW damage caused by horses in the Nelse area since 2017 when there were plenty of deer around. Lets see what happens now most of the horses have been removed from this area.
     
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  50. Artisan

    Artisan Hard Yards

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    Hmmm...
    Xplora, because elephants and rhinos cause ‘damage’ to creeks and rivers in Africa then you would say they need to be removed..;)



    :whistle: