Horses In National Parks, A Discussion.

Chaeron

Ski-Hike-Blade-Bike-Kayak
Ski Pass
Jun 24, 2014
7,881
15,416
563
Dandenong Ranges
I reckon we have to recognise the ‘cultural’ significance of the brumbies and celebrate their heritage and make more of the national parks being open to recreational riders.

That maintains the social aspect of things for the pro horse lobby which is after all their main priority, rather than any practical aspect of horses being in the Parks.

The actual financial advantage to interested parties from feral horses is insignificant.

This approach alongside the separate and parallel emphasis on the irreversible ecological impact of feral horses in a fragile alpine environment is the way forward for their removal.

The positive impact on the Bogong High Plains of the removal of cattle is so self-evident in areas like Mt Nelse!
 

Xplora

One of Us
Ski Pass
Jun 7, 2015
2,473
5,125
363
The positive impact on the Bogong High Plains of the removal of cattle is so self-evident in areas like Mt Nelse!
The studies which the pro-horse people are paying for (cash for science) is aimed at determining the negative influence to the biodiversity of removing horses from the landscape because horses have been there 'so for such a long time', adaptions have supposedly already been made. We would deduce, by inference, removal could cause the extinction or decline of some plant and animal species which are now relying on horses to survive (whereas they did not previously). In support of the horses, Charles Darwin was quoted by Craig Downer (American Ecologist) as saying words to the effect 'Every species battles for survival and when it stops battling it becomes extinct'. That could mean horses are helping the tiny creatures survive by making them battle more.

The one thing I remember from my stats and biometry days - experimental design is critical to get the result you are seeking which will be validated by the statistics and the design can be heavily influenced by the person paying the bills. There is a big difference between paying an honourarium to volunteers for out of pocket expenses so they can canvas for signatures on a petition and paying the lion share of a study which is hoped to validate positive influences of horses on fragile environments in order to allow them to continue the damage.

I have the GPS coordinates for all the NEW damage caused by horses in the Nelse area since 2017 when there were plenty of deer around. Lets see what happens now most of the horses have been removed from this area.
 

Artisan

Hard Yards
Dec 8, 2020
487
213
63
North West of Brisbane
The studies which the pro-horse people are paying for (cash for science) is aimed at determining the negative influence to the biodiversity of removing horses from the landscape because horses have been there 'so for such a long time', adaptions have supposedly already been made. We would deduce, by inference, removal could cause the extinction or decline of some plant and animal species which are now relying on horses to survive (whereas they did not previously). In support of the horses, Charles Darwin was quoted by Craig Downer (American Ecologist) as saying words to the effect 'Every species battles for survival and when it stops battling it becomes extinct'. That could mean horses are helping the tiny creatures survive by making them battle more.

The one thing I remember from my stats and biometry days - experimental design is critical to get the result you are seeking which will be validated by the statistics and the design can be heavily influenced by the person paying the bills. There is a big difference between paying an honourarium to volunteers for out of pocket expenses so they can canvas for signatures on a petition and paying the lion share of a study which is hoped to validate positive influences of horses on fragile environments in order to allow them to continue the damage.

I have the GPS coordinates for all the NEW damage caused by horses in the Nelse area since 2017 when there were plenty of deer around. Lets see what happens now most of the horses have been removed from this area.

Hmmm...
Xplora, because elephants and rhinos cause ‘damage’ to creeks and rivers in Africa then you would say they need to be removed..;)



:whistle:
 

Artisan

Hard Yards
Dec 8, 2020
487
213
63
North West of Brisbane
:rolleyes:

Hmmm... I guess the difference between a great forum and a mediocre forum is in the content of the debates..;)

Meanwhile, back in the real world. Apparently yer don’t need horses or mega fauna to cause erosion. Just an un-grazed high fuel load and a bit of fire...

““...It's been 12 months since the Orroral Valley bushfire — which spanned 80,000 hectares and saw the ACT enter a state of emergency — destroyed 80 per cent of Namadgi National Park...
...Catie Pidgeon, who coordinates the environmental recovery response, said heavy rainfall had also resulted in large amounts of sediment erosion.
"A lot of the sediment will end up down into our waterways which causes issues for aquatic species," Ms Pidgeon said.
“When sediment is carried down it doesn’t leave any nutrient load or the Seedbank and so there’s less regeneration occurring.”
Rangers are monitoring some of those species and the impacts of sediment loads into waterways.
"One particular area we've been focused on is our alpine bog and fen communities, which are very fragile in nature," Ms Pidgeon said.
"Most of our bogs were subjected to burns so we've done a lot of work trying to protect and remediate those areas."...””

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01...-park-to-reopen-sooner-than-expected/13045556


Oh dear... :whistle:
 

zapruda

One of Us
Ski Pass
Apr 4, 2017
1,039
2,870
363
Canberra
I think It is incredibly important to have discussions and opinions that come from both sides of the fence. If we don't, we are at risk of becoming another echo chamber like the dozens of Facebook groups patting each other on the back for burying their heads in the sand.

Having said that, here is an open invitation to anyone on this forum who wants to see the parts of the high country that are being discussed relentlessly in this thread. I will drive you out there from Canberra, walk you through the plains and show you where to fill up your water bottles etc. And the best part is that I wont utter a single word. Ill let you make up your mind for yourself. No science, no bias, no opinions, just clear as day proof of the situation. If more people who had these strong views actually visited these areas I doubt we would be going through the to and fro we are now.

Here is what you have to look forward to -
I've offered this before on other platforms and unsurprisingly no one has taken me up on it. I'm 100% serious. If you are keen let me know.
 

KylePee

Cage rattler
Ski Pass
Feb 10, 2012
10,699
20,452
813
Jumped the wall to Mexico
I think It is incredibly important to have discussions and opinions that come from both sides of the fence. If we don't, we are at risk of becoming another echo chamber like the dozens of Facebook groups patting each other on the back for burying their heads in the sand.

Having said that, here is an open invitation to anyone on this forum who wants to see the parts of the high country that are being discussed relentlessly in this thread. I will drive you out there from Canberra, walk you through the plains and show you where to fill up your water bottles etc. And the best part is that I wont utter a single word. Ill let you make up your mind for yourself. No science, no bias, no opinions, just clear as day proof of the situation. If more people who had these strong views actually visited these areas I doubt we would be going through the to and fro we are now.

Here is what you have to look forward to -
I've offered this before on other platforms and unsurprisingly no one has taken me up on it. I'm 100% serious. If you are keen let me know.
I don't need convincing, but since you're offering to take me on a guided walk...
 

Artisan

Hard Yards
Dec 8, 2020
487
213
63
North West of Brisbane
I think It is incredibly important to have discussions and opinions that come from both sides of the fence. If we don't, we are at risk of becoming another echo chamber like the dozens of Facebook groups patting each other on the back for burying their heads in the sand.

Having said that, here is an open invitation to anyone on this forum who wants to see the parts of the high country that are being discussed relentlessly in this thread. I will drive you out there from Canberra, walk you through the plains and show you where to fill up your water bottles etc. And the best part is that I wont utter a single word. Ill let you make up your mind for yourself. No science, no bias, no opinions, just clear as day proof of the situation. If more people who had these strong views actually visited these areas I doubt we would be going through the to and fro we are now.

Here is what you have to look forward to -
I've offered this before on other platforms and unsurprisingly no one has taken me up on it. I'm 100% serious. If you are keen let me know.
I think there is still some miss-understanding re the now extinct Oz megafauna being brought to the discussion.

zapruda, perhaps you need to walk around the areas of Africa that still have extent megafauna to see what Australian water courses looked like when we still had mega fauna.
 
Remove ads with a
Ski Pass

Artisan

Hard Yards
Dec 8, 2020
487
213
63
North West of Brisbane
Would it confuse you if I told you that elephants and rhinos exert less pressure on the land per square centimetre than horses?

OK. perhaps you need to look at pictures of the creeks and water holes where African mega fauna are to be found. Nature is messy...

Run the scenario of a mob of African rhino’s walking across an Australian ‘bog’ site. Do you think they leave no impression ?
Next, run the scenario of a mob of the tusked Oz megafauna that they think used to dig up creek beds doing their thing.
Think about the fire fuel load available when there is herds of megafauna grazing the creek and water hole systems.

As far as I can see, any discussion about what is ‘natural’ in Oz needs to include the megafauna. And their potential proxy’s.


;)
 

Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
Ski Pass
Mar 3, 1999
69,533
45,901
1,563
Coastal suburban boonies.
OK. perhaps you need to look at pictures of the creeks and water holes where African mega fauna are to be found. Nature is messy...

Run the scenario of a mob of African rhino’s walking across an Australian ‘bog’ site. Do you think they leave no impression ?
Next, run the scenario of a mob of the tusked Oz megafauna that they think used to dig up creek beds doing their thing.
Think about the fire fuel load available when there is herds of megafauna grazing the creek and water hole systems.

As far as I can see, any discussion about what is ‘natural’ in Oz needs to include the megafauna. And their potential proxy’s.


;)
That didn't quite answer the question.
 

dawooduck

relaxed and comfortable
Ski Pass
Oct 26, 2002
74,763
69,360
1,525
Mountains

images (1).jpeg
 

Xplora

One of Us
Ski Pass
Jun 7, 2015
2,473
5,125
363
As far as I can see, any discussion about what is ‘natural’ in Oz needs to include the megafauna. And their potential proxy’s.
That would be because you cannot see far. Perhaps you are wearing blinkers such as some race horses do. I will not participate in any further discussion from you regarding megafauna which did not exist in Alpine areas apart from in your imagination. It appears that is all you have, so your value as a protagonist is over. I am not shutting down your involvement here, instead I am telling you I have no more interest in your ridiculous and unsubstantiated theories. If you provide something of substance (other than megafauna) then I will engage with you again.
 

teletripper

One of Us
Aug 4, 2007
311
667
263
Jindabyne
:rolleyes:

Hmmm... I guess the difference between a great forum and a mediocre forum is in the content of the debates..;)

Meanwhile, back in the real world. Apparently yer don’t need horses or mega fauna to cause erosion. Just an un-grazed high fuel load and a bit of fire...

““...It's been 12 months since the Orroral Valley bushfire — which spanned 80,000 hectares and saw the ACT enter a state of emergency — destroyed 80 per cent of Namadgi National Park...
...Catie Pidgeon, who coordinates the environmental recovery response, said heavy rainfall had also resulted in large amounts of sediment erosion.
"A lot of the sediment will end up down into our waterways which causes issues for aquatic species," Ms Pidgeon said.
“When sediment is carried down it doesn’t leave any nutrient load or the Seedbank and so there’s less regeneration occurring.”
Rangers are monitoring some of those species and the impacts of sediment loads into waterways.
"One particular area we've been focused on is our alpine bog and fen communities, which are very fragile in nature," Ms Pidgeon said.
"Most of our bogs were subjected to burns so we've done a lot of work trying to protect and remediate those areas."...””

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01...-park-to-reopen-sooner-than-expected/13045556


Oh dear... :whistle:

So more 'whataboutism'.
Because you point out that the Australian alpine and sub alpine landscape experiences bushfires which lead to erosion and sedimentation (a fact that I don't believe most people on this forum thread would dispute) means that the issue of feral horses and their impacts can therefore be ignored and swept under the carpet??
By taking a logical extension of your 'whataboutism' approach then we should instruct our national park authorities to ignore controlling rabbits, deer, pigs and to ignore managing, regulating or mitigating the impacts of snowy hydro, 4wd, bushwalker use or any other contributing factor to erosion and sedimentation across the alps landscape as well ??
Good strategy!
 

teletripper

One of Us
Aug 4, 2007
311
667
263
Jindabyne
Oh, and before you try and play the 'grazing reduces blazing' card as I take you are also trying to imply this in your attached reference I suggest you do some further reading and research and look closely at the long term fire history of the Alps in that large landscape scale fires (1899,1924/26,1939, 1952 etc etc) all occurred across SE Australia including the Australian Alps even at the height of the cattle grazing era, and that much of the area currently occupied by feral horses also burnt in the last 2019/20 fire season.
https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/...onal-park-fire-management-strategy-080321.pdf
1.4.2.1 Unplanned fire history the Park is an area that always has been and always will be subject to unplanned fires due to its geographic location, climatic conditions, vegetation and topography. However large unplanned fires in the alpine and subalpine areas are relatively rare (Scherrer et al, 2004, Mooney, 2004). Sharp (1992) and other studies (Zylstra 2006) divide the past 6 centuries into 4 main eras defined by fire. The period 1400-1600AD saw moderate frequency and scale of fires with a slight reduction during the Maunder Minimum (a cooler climatic period), the period 1600 to 1840 had low frequency and spread of fire, the period 1840 to 1955 saw high frequency fire and many large scale events, and the period post 1955 has again seen a reduction in fire frequency and spread (Zylstra 2006). Prior to the collection of the earliest reliable mapped records (1956) major fires in the Snowy Mountains occurred in 1876, 1879, 1895, 1899, 1920, 1924, 1926, 1933, 1935 and 1939 (Banks, 1989) and 1952 (Woodruff, 1977) with major fires occurring during drought and extreme fire weather conditions (Woodruff, 1977). At least 4 of these fires (1899, 1924/26, 1939 and 1952 were of similar scale or larger than the 2003 fires. Fires of this scale only occur when there are multiple ignitions across large areas generally preceded by drought conditions. In 1939 and 1952 these ignitions were escaped prescribed burns or accidental ignitions, and in 2003 they were produced by a series of dry lightning storms (Zylstra, 2006).

Sorry, the history and the science says otherwise.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1442-9993.2006.01655.x
 

Xplora

One of Us
Ski Pass
Jun 7, 2015
2,473
5,125
363
The 'grazing reduces blazing' theory has well and truly been debunked but held so tightly by the pro grazing group because there is little else. I was on Feathertop in 2003 when that dry storm hit and reported the fire at the base of Feathertop while heading down Diamantina spur. The number of strikes was incredible and the number of fires started made it impossible for authorities to work out which where the priority was to put out first. Cattle were still on the Bogong High Plains at the time. Now we are to believe 100 horses can reduce a fuel load sufficiently to effect the spread of fire. Perhaps some study of the facts would show grazing (and the associated autumn unnatural burns) contributed to the ferocity of fires. Wouldn't that be ironical. What is known, a small number of horses can do a huge amount of damage to waterways.

Another exclusion plot being constructed (this very day) on BHP in some sensitive vegetation area between Cope Hut and Langford West. More about the deer than horses.
 

Chaeron

Ski-Hike-Blade-Bike-Kayak
Ski Pass
Jun 24, 2014
7,881
15,416
563
Dandenong Ranges
The 'grazing reduces blazing' theory has well and truly been debunked but held so tightly by the pro grazing group because there is little else. I was on Feathertop in 2003 when that dry storm hit and reported the fire at the base of Feathertop while heading down Diamantina spur. The number of strikes was incredible and the number of fires started made it impossible for authorities to work out which where the priority was to put out first. Cattle were still on the Bogong High Plains at the time. Now we are to believe 100 horses can reduce a fuel load sufficiently to effect the spread of fire. Perhaps some study of the facts would show grazing (and the associated autumn unnatural burns) contributed to the ferocity of fires. Wouldn't that be ironical. What is known, a small number of horses can do a huge amount of damage to waterways.

Another exclusion plot being constructed (this very day) on BHP in some sensitive vegetation area between Cope Hut and Langford West. More about the deer than horses.
Saw the Parksvic ranger and comtractors up there on Friday on my way back down from a quick overnighter to Timms Spur. Ranger agreed it’s been the wettest summer in years. There’s also been some good anti-erosion work happening.
 

climberman

CloudRide1000 Legend
Ski Pass
Jul 24, 2000
47,101
43,902
1,563
the sunny illawarra
Oh, and before you try and play the 'grazing reduces blazing' card as I take you are also trying to imply this in your attached reference I suggest you do some further reading and research and look closely at the long term fire history of the Alps in that large landscape scale fires (1899,1924/26,1939, 1952 etc etc) all occurred across SE Australia including the Australian Alps even at the height of the cattle grazing era, and that much of the area currently occupied by feral horses also burnt in the last 2019/20 fire season.
https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/...onal-park-fire-management-strategy-080321.pdf
1.4.2.1 Unplanned fire history the Park is an area that always has been and always will be subject to unplanned fires due to its geographic location, climatic conditions, vegetation and topography. However large unplanned fires in the alpine and subalpine areas are relatively rare (Scherrer et al, 2004, Mooney, 2004). Sharp (1992) and other studies (Zylstra 2006) divide the past 6 centuries into 4 main eras defined by fire. The period 1400-1600AD saw moderate frequency and scale of fires with a slight reduction during the Maunder Minimum (a cooler climatic period), the period 1600 to 1840 had low frequency and spread of fire, the period 1840 to 1955 saw high frequency fire and many large scale events, and the period post 1955 has again seen a reduction in fire frequency and spread (Zylstra 2006). Prior to the collection of the earliest reliable mapped records (1956) major fires in the Snowy Mountains occurred in 1876, 1879, 1895, 1899, 1920, 1924, 1926, 1933, 1935 and 1939 (Banks, 1989) and 1952 (Woodruff, 1977) with major fires occurring during drought and extreme fire weather conditions (Woodruff, 1977). At least 4 of these fires (1899, 1924/26, 1939 and 1952 were of similar scale or larger than the 2003 fires. Fires of this scale only occur when there are multiple ignitions across large areas generally preceded by drought conditions. In 1939 and 1952 these ignitions were escaped prescribed burns or accidental ignitions, and in 2003 they were produced by a series of dry lightning storms (Zylstra, 2006).

Sorry, the history and the science says otherwise.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1442-9993.2006.01655.x
I finished my thesis under (Scott) Mooney. Lovely guy.
 

Artisan

Hard Yards
Dec 8, 2020
487
213
63
North West of Brisbane
So more 'whataboutism'.
Because you point out that the Australian alpine and sub alpine landscape experiences bushfires which lead to erosion and sedimentation (a fact that I don't believe most people on this forum thread would dispute) means that the issue of feral horses and their impacts can therefore be ignored and swept under the carpet??
By taking a logical extension of your 'whataboutism' approach then we should instruct our national park authorities to ignore controlling rabbits, deer, pigs and to ignore managing, regulating or mitigating the impacts of snowy hydro, 4wd, bushwalker use or any other contributing factor to erosion and sedimentation across the alps landscape as well ??
Good strategy!

Where do I say things shouldn’t be managed ? I have touched on the subject in prior posts.

Introducing large megafauna carnivore proxy’s is not possible so the herbivore megafauna proxy’s need human management.
 

Artisan

Hard Yards
Dec 8, 2020
487
213
63
North West of Brisbane
Oh, and before you try and play the 'grazing reduces blazing' card as I take you are also trying to imply this in your attached reference I suggest you do some further reading and research and look closely at the long term fire history of the Alps in that large landscape scale fires (1899,1924/26,1939, 1952 etc etc) all occurred across SE Australia including the Australian Alps even at the height of the cattle grazing era, and that much of the area currently occupied by feral horses also burnt in the last 2019/20 fire season.
https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/...onal-park-fire-management-strategy-080321.pdf
1.4.2.1 Unplanned fire history the Park is an area that always has been and always will be subject to unplanned fires due to its geographic location, climatic conditions, vegetation and topography. However large unplanned fires in the alpine and subalpine areas are relatively rare (Scherrer et al, 2004, Mooney, 2004). Sharp (1992) and other studies (Zylstra 2006) divide the past 6 centuries into 4 main eras defined by fire. The period 1400-1600AD saw moderate frequency and scale of fires with a slight reduction during the Maunder Minimum (a cooler climatic period), the period 1600 to 1840 had low frequency and spread of fire, the period 1840 to 1955 saw high frequency fire and many large scale events, and the period post 1955 has again seen a reduction in fire frequency and spread (Zylstra 2006). Prior to the collection of the earliest reliable mapped records (1956) major fires in the Snowy Mountains occurred in 1876, 1879, 1895, 1899, 1920, 1924, 1926, 1933, 1935 and 1939 (Banks, 1989) and 1952 (Woodruff, 1977) with major fires occurring during drought and extreme fire weather conditions (Woodruff, 1977). At least 4 of these fires (1899, 1924/26, 1939 and 1952 were of similar scale or larger than the 2003 fires. Fires of this scale only occur when there are multiple ignitions across large areas generally preceded by drought conditions. In 1939 and 1952 these ignitions were escaped prescribed burns or accidental ignitions, and in 2003 they were produced by a series of dry lightning storms (Zylstra, 2006).

Sorry, the history and the science says otherwise.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1442-9993.2006.01655.x

My reference from #1911: “Think about the fire fuel load available when there is herds of megafauna grazing the creek and water hole systems.”

In dry times herbivores tend to congregate about where the greenest pick and water is to be found. If you take the megafauna of Africa as an example you will note that all tracks ‘lead to Rome’ - the local water hole. During droughts, the local water hole becomes a denuded and very low fuel load area of what is otherwise a very flammable landscape.

My understanding is that before humans, back in the megafauna days, parts of Oz were subject to mega fires. Humans turned up and the landscape became, in the main, one that were regularly burned with very infrequent mega fires. Climate had its impact as well. That were all turned on its head back in the early 1800’s and we are now seeing the return of the mega fires though without the megafauna buffer.



;)
 

Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
Ski Pass
Mar 3, 1999
69,533
45,901
1,563
Coastal suburban boonies.
My reference from #1911: “Think about the fire fuel load available when there is herds of megafauna grazing the creek and water hole systems.”

In dry times herbivores tend to congregate about where the greenest pick and water is to be found. If you take the megafauna of Africa as an example you will note that all tracks ‘lead to Rome’ - the local water hole. During droughts, the local water hole becomes a denuded and very low fuel load area of what is otherwise a very flammable landscape.

My understanding is that before humans, back in the megafauna days, parts of Oz were subject to mega fires. Humans turned up and the landscape became, in the main, one that were regularly burned with very infrequent mega fires. Climate had its impact as well. That were all turned on its head back in the early 1800’s and we are now seeing the return of the mega fires though without the megafauna buffer.



;)
It's probably the dik diks
 

teletripper

One of Us
Aug 4, 2007
311
667
263
Jindabyne
My reference from #1911: “Think about the fire fuel load available when there is herds of megafauna grazing the creek and water hole systems.”

In dry times herbivores tend to congregate about where the greenest pick and water is to be found. If you take the megafauna of Africa as an example you will note that all tracks ‘lead to Rome’ - the local water hole. During droughts, the local water hole becomes a denuded and very low fuel load area of what is otherwise a very flammable landscape.

My understanding is that before humans, back in the megafauna days, parts of Oz were subject to mega fires. Humans turned up and the landscape became, in the main, one that were regularly burned with very infrequent mega fires. Climate had its impact as well. That were all turned on its head back in the early 1800’s and we are now seeing the return of the mega fires though without the megafauna buffer.



;)
Got any research or evidence to support your ‘understanding’ ??
 
  • Like
Reactions: Edgecrusher

teletripper

One of Us
Aug 4, 2007
311
667
263
Jindabyne
Where do I say things shouldn’t be managed ? I have touched on the subject in prior posts.

Introducing large megafauna carnivore proxy’s is not possible so the herbivore megafauna proxy’s need human management.
If you allow the dominance of these so called ‘herbivore megafauna proxy’s’ as you like to paint them you may as well introduce the large megafauna carnivore proxy’s as well, and really stuff what is left of the native flora and fauna and ecosystems. You still have not explained or reasoned your total disregard for the native flora, fauna and ecosystems that the experts tell us are likely to be pushed to permanent accelerated extinction by allowing herbivore mega fauna proxy’s to continue there rise to dominance.
 

Edgecrusher

Pool Room
Ski Pass
Apr 19, 2013
72,453
59,107
1,563
36
The Southern Capital
Got any research or evidence to support your ‘understanding’ ??
Nah, popping an irritating “;)” after each of his posts is all he needs.

Forget the research and peer reviewed science, just go with the gut feel and limited reading materials. That’s all someone needs these days to become a self appointed expert on any topic
 
  • Like
Reactions: zapruda

cqen2l

Part of the Furniture
Ski Pass
Feb 7, 2003
15,084
12,139
813
Northern Beaches
If you allow the dominance of these so called ‘herbivore megafauna proxy’s’ as you like to paint them you may as well introduce the large megafauna carnivore proxy’s as well, and really stuff what is left of the native flora and fauna and ecosystems. You still have not explained or reasoned your total disregard for the native flora, fauna and ecosystems that the experts tell us are likely to be pushed to permanent accelerated extinction by allowing herbivore mega fauna proxy’s to continue there rise to dominance.
Joe is still trying to process that response. Not the sharpest tool in the thread.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Edgecrusher

teletripper

One of Us
Aug 4, 2007
311
667
263
Jindabyne

KylePee

Cage rattler
Ski Pass
Feb 10, 2012
10,699
20,452
813
Jumped the wall to Mexico
Yeah, pretty compelling isn’t it. Unfortunately many pro feral horse activists just see the inside of those exclosures as threatening ‘fuel load’ that needs to be reduced, and the outside as the ideal European park like setting that they desire. Anyone who wants more info on the long term floristics and drainage line monitoring of those Cowombat plots can find it here:
https://theaustralianalps.files.wor...sion-plot-monitoring-and-analysis_final_1.pdf
Very informative, thanks!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jacko4650

cruisin along

Free at last
Ski Pass
Jan 1, 2007
8,304
4,867
563
CC Terrigal area
I go back again to my area of interest in removing ALL feral animals from KNP but specifically those destructive brumbies/horses.
Corroboree Frogs - they need to be saved and their habitat needs to be saved from feral animals destruction. https://taronga.org.au/donate/corroboree-frog-appeal
Action Plan for NORTHERN Corroboree Frog - https://www.environment.act.gov.au/...rn_Corroboree_Frog_Action_Plan_-_Combined.pdf
Action plan for SOUTHERN Corroboree Frog https://www.environment.gov.au/reso...thern-corroboree-frog-pseudophryne-corroboree
and to finish the reading off here is the CSIRO - published March 2019 of feral horses and their impact on the Corroboree Frogs. https://www.publish.csiro.au/WR/WR18093
 

cruisin along

Free at last
Ski Pass
Jan 1, 2007
8,304
4,867
563
CC Terrigal area
Just in case you wanted more information on these delightful frogs - National Action Plan
https://www.environment.gov.au/syst.../files/pseudophryne-corroboree-pengilleyi.pdf
Action 4.5
Implement control measures to reduce the abundance of feral animals that cause damage to corroboree frog habitat.It is important for the conservation of corroboree frogs that the abundance of feral pigs and horses is maintained at levels where impacts to breeding habitat are negligible. This has been successfully achieved for pigs throughout much of the distribution of corroboree frogs, and for horses in areas occupied by the SCF,and southern Brindabella NCF population in the ACT. It is critical that this work is continued, in particular, ensuring that horses are prevented from colonising the broader Jagungal Wilderness Area where remnant SCF populations occur. There is an immediate need for increased feral animal control in Northern Kosciuszko National Park where horses are causing substantial environmental damage in and around NCF breeding habitat (D. Hunter, B. Scheele, R. Pietsch, W. Osborne pers. obs). This has been identified as a priority action in the Horse Management Plan for Kosciuszko National Park (NSW OEH2008).
 

Kletterer

Thredbo Doughnut Tragic
Moderator
Nov 26, 2014
23,550
28,628
1,063
Canberra
Recent obs from Gungartan- Kerries Ridge region in the Jagungal Wilderness area. Did not spot 1 horse over 2 days and barely any horse poo at all. These bogs and Fens are extremely sensitive. The dark green growth is Sphagnum Novazelandicum which is much less prolific than the lighter green growth ( Sphagnum Cristatum ? ) You can see how the plant cant deal with the silty granite areas and seeks out the good soil .
IMG_2493.jpg
IMG_2491.jpg
IMG_2492.jpg
 

Greybeard

Addicted
Jun 10, 2008
305
244
113
Recent obs from Gungartan- Kerries Ridge region in the Jagungal Wilderness area. Did not spot 1 horse over 2 days and barely any horse poo at all. These bogs and Fens are extremely sensitive. The dark green growth is Sphagnum Novazelandicum which is much less prolific than the lighter green growth ( Sphagnum Cristatum ? ) You can see how the plant cant deal with the silty granite areas and seeks out the good soil .
IMG_2493.jpg
IMG_2491.jpg
IMG_2492.jpg
Did you visit and observe in the upper Valentines/Tin Hut/Brassys area? The reason I ask is that last winter (mid July) there were numerous horse diggings along the Brassys, and a group of nine horses camped (large piles of poo, been there a while) a couple of hundred metres from Tin Hut. Curious to know if they stayed up high through summer or not.
 

Kletterer

Thredbo Doughnut Tragic
Moderator
Nov 26, 2014
23,550
28,628
1,063
Canberra
Did you visit and observe in the upper Valentines/Tin Hut/Brassys area? The reason I ask is that last winter (mid July) there were numerous horse diggings along the Brassys, and a group of nine horses camped (large piles of poo, been there a while) a couple of hundred metres from Tin Hut. Curious to know if they stayed up high through summer or not.
Yes. Walked in to Tin Hut direct from Gungartan Pass. Then over the plains beyond the hut and up the Brassies to Big Brassy Peak - returning via the Brassy ridgetops . Later we took a direct line from Tin Hut to Gungartan peak and down Dissapointment Ridge. No horses spotted and very little horse poo .
 
  • Like
Reactions: Myazma

Untele-whippet

beard stroker
Ski Pass
Jul 13, 2006
19,707
43,044
813
60
Burnt Downs, Blue Mtns, 1100M.
From SMH this morning


NSW's Deputy Premier John Barilaro says sections of the Kosciuszko National Park should be free of feral horses and overall numbers should be cut to as low as 600, a dramatic shift from his previous positions.

“We must reduce the number of brumbies, whether it’s down to 600, 1000, or 3000," Mr Barilaro told the Herald, adding that “there are parts of the park that should have zero horses".

4a533f799b4711fbbda18902d6243f62cbcd1300

Feral horses at Long Plain near Kiandra, from last November. The latest count suggests numbers in the park may have fallen although researchers say they remain unsustainably high for the delicate alpine ecosystems of the Kosciuszko National Park.CREDIT:ALEX ELLINGHAUSEN

Mr Barilaro made the comments ahead of the release of the government's latest count of horses in the park. "We’ve seen a lot of brumbies lost to drought and bushfires," he said.

The latest spring survey, obtained by the Herald, show the numbers of the animals totalled more than 14,000 compared with 19,000 a year earlier. Environment Minister Matt Kean attributed the drop to effects of bushfire and drought, movement of animals out of the park, and a smaller survey region
 

dawooduck

relaxed and comfortable
Ski Pass
Oct 26, 2002
74,763
69,360
1,525
Mountains
From SMH this morning


NSW's Deputy Premier John Barilaro says sections of the Kosciuszko National Park should be free of feral horses and overall numbers should be cut to as low as 600, a dramatic shift from his previous positions.

“We must reduce the number of brumbies, whether it’s down to 600, 1000, or 3000," Mr Barilaro told the Herald, adding that “there are parts of the park that should have zero horses".

4a533f799b4711fbbda18902d6243f62cbcd1300

Feral horses at Long Plain near Kiandra, from last November. The latest count suggests numbers in the park may have fallen although researchers say they remain unsustainably high for the delicate alpine ecosystems of the Kosciuszko National Park.CREDIT:ALEX ELLINGHAUSEN

Mr Barilaro made the comments ahead of the release of the government's latest count of horses in the park. "We’ve seen a lot of brumbies lost to drought and bushfires," he said.

The latest spring survey, obtained by the Herald, show the numbers of the animals totalled more than 14,000 compared with 19,000 a year earlier. Environment Minister Matt Kean attributed the drop to effects of bushfire and drought, movement of animals out of the park, and a smaller survey region

Fck me, isn't this exactly where we where in 2016 before Barilaro fcked everything.:mad:
 

KylePee

Cage rattler
Ski Pass
Feb 10, 2012
10,699
20,452
813
Jumped the wall to Mexico
From SMH this morning


NSW's Deputy Premier John Barilaro says sections of the Kosciuszko National Park should be free of feral horses and overall numbers should be cut to as low as 600, a dramatic shift from his previous positions.

“We must reduce the number of brumbies, whether it’s down to 600, 1000, or 3000," Mr Barilaro told the Herald, adding that “there are parts of the park that should have zero horses".

4a533f799b4711fbbda18902d6243f62cbcd1300

Feral horses at Long Plain near Kiandra, from last November. The latest count suggests numbers in the park may have fallen although researchers say they remain unsustainably high for the delicate alpine ecosystems of the Kosciuszko National Park.CREDIT:ALEX ELLINGHAUSEN

Mr Barilaro made the comments ahead of the release of the government's latest count of horses in the park. "We’ve seen a lot of brumbies lost to drought and bushfires," he said.

The latest spring survey, obtained by the Herald, show the numbers of the animals totalled more than 14,000 compared with 19,000 a year earlier. Environment Minister Matt Kean attributed the drop to effects of bushfire and drought, movement of animals out of the park, and a smaller survey region
Polling changed?
 
Remove ads with a
Ski Pass

Log in

or Log in using
Remove ads with a
Ski Pass