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Horses In National Parks, A Discussion.

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by Greybeard, Sep 10, 2018.

  1. Donzah

    Donzah Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Then eaten or shot...
     
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  2. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Big fenced paddock around Canberra ....just dump all the horses there
     
  3. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    How about dump the horses in your backyard. Canberra only has 2 members in the House of Reps and 3 senators. The rest of the fools are all sent by you lot.
     
  4. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Aerial cull at Singo has gone ahead. Now if we could get KNP handed to Defence then something might get done.
     
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  5. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Gunships. Now you're talking.
     
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  6. Donzah

    Donzah Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    AC 130
     
  7. Chaeron

    Chaeron Ski-Hike-Blade-Bike-Kayak Ski Pass: Gold

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    Napalm - sphagnum bogs, alpine flowers, snow gums, horses, sambar deer, and hikers - all sorted in a single afternoon.

    We could put in apartments and run Summernats up on high! Exactly what’s needed to revive the Nats fortunes before the federal election.
     
  8. Chaeron

    Chaeron Ski-Hike-Blade-Bike-Kayak Ski Pass: Gold

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    Matt Canavan for minister of the Environment. Oh wait.....
     
  9. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Think of the pygmy possums.
     
  10. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Use the Army's Tiger helicopters, not like they will ever get deployed...
     
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  11. Donzah

    Donzah Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Only exist in. 6 hectarage
     
  12. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Barilaro is currently throwing money at the Snowy Monaro region.

    Much pork
    Many barrels
     
  13. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yea Naa
     
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  14. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    Take pork barreling while it’s going!!
     
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  15. POW_hungry

    POW_hungry Old n' Crusty Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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  16. canestocks

    canestocks Hard Yards

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    HEADLINES (not) 1500 deer shot.

    LLS conducted a aerial cull recently and cleaned out this number in 3 days on Northern Tablelands. Just sayin'.
     
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  17. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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  18. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    Well yes but I cannot help thinking the pork is a cover for his over reach on "heritage brumbies" and some buttering to smooth "future development".
     
  19. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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  20. Donzah

    Donzah Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Was sarcasm
     
  21. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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  22. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Park users are warned that feral control gunships will be operating this weekend, and advised to stay clear

    [​IMG]
     
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  23. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Perhaps a little napalm to quell the blackberries while the aerial engagement continues!!
     
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  24. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    These are the videos that have the power to win over support for the horse culling program...
    Very useful stuff to enlighten the public......
    Some billboards on the Monaro perhaps??
     
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  25. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I love the smell of feral control in the morning!
     
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  26. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Some useful info perhaps on deer .....not trying do derail present thread.

    Oops we didnot observe that was last year!!
     
  27. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    On our recent travels, ran into a couple who haled originally from Corryong and her father used to own Tom Groggin Station. He worked on Snowy One scheme. She wants the feral horses out of KNP. It may make you wonder how many locals actually want to keep them. The MP from Singleton is a real brains trust.
    "A lot of the time they get shot and don’t get killed and they can’t be relocated again, therefore the horse is suffering."
    If anyone starts a sentence with 'a lot of the time' you know they have no facts to back it up. The rest of this sentence is mind boggling. Aerial shooting of deer in the Alpine NP was quite successful but only in the open areas. Perhaps we should consider aerial mustering and re-homing of them also?
     
  28. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    happened again this year. Also trapping of feral cats in/near the village
     
  29. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    would be more effective with some tighter editing, but good effort
     
  30. Mister Tee on XC Skis

    Mister Tee on XC Skis A Local Ski Pass: Gold Ski Pass: Silver

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    The legislation passed by the NSW parliament that protects feral horses in the KNP is madness on stilts. Next the wise apes will introduce laws to protect rabbits, wild pigs, wild dogs, deer and feral cats.
     
    #180 Mister Tee on XC Skis, Dec 22, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2018
  31. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    The argument is "why are you picking on the horses when so many other things do damage", "horse don't do much damage", "it was the pigs", "skiers do more damage" etc etc

    Its all a little deranged
     
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  32. Mister Tee on XC Skis

    Mister Tee on XC Skis A Local Ski Pass: Gold Ski Pass: Silver

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  33. Rabid K9

    Rabid K9 A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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  34. zapruda

    zapruda One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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  35. Chaeron

    Chaeron Ski-Hike-Blade-Bike-Kayak Ski Pass: Gold

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    Last week I encountered the herd of at least 8 horses on Young’s Spur the other side of Mount Jim on Bogong High Plains which is still there a year after they had become one of the targeted lot for removal by trapping.

    Last year I saw them in 2 smaller separate groups - one lot here, the other near Kelly Hut.

    Either they’ve joined up or they’ve had an awesomely productive year....

    They’re so shy of humans (moving away at a distance of more than a km once they saw/ smelt me upwind) there’s no way successful trapping/ capture is going to occur.

    The size of the terrain they have at their disposal and their capacity to dip into the valleys means they’re always likely to survive the winter.

    Their dung is everywhere - the degree to which their presence is disrupting the landscape is obvious.

    OK, we’re talking about the BHP which isn’t pristine by any measure - it was cleared and grazed extensively - and the hydro scheme disruption of water flows is also significant, but still.

    Shoot them. Lovely beasts, beautiful in the wild, part of our heritage, but shoot them.
     
  36. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    True, but having seen the last cattle on Spion Cope on one of my first wanders in the area can say a significant amount of recovery has occurred over the 20 or so years. My point being recovery is possible if the cloven hoofed animals are removed.
     
  37. Chaeron

    Chaeron Ski-Hike-Blade-Bike-Kayak Ski Pass: Gold

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    Agreed, the recovery is significant. However, those burnt- out snowgums don’t grow back as easily.

    I wonder how much the tree cover on the BHP has changed in the last 500 years - it’s possible that the general treeline has moved independently of human clearing

    https://susannavenn.wordpress.com/2012/04/19/hello-world/

    Susanna Venn and Ken Green 2012:

    “Snowgum (Eucalyptus pauciflora sub. sp. niphophila), Australia’s alpine treeline species, is unlikely to track a changing climate and encroach into the alpine zone any time soon. It lacks any useful uphill dispersal mechanisms, has poor seedling recruitment and recent fires did not produce a significant pulse of recruitment above, or promote any advance on the current treeline.”

    @Bogong @Xplora
     
  38. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    It took 30 or 40 years for Kossie to come back after cattle were removed.
     
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  39. Bogong

    Bogong Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Chaeron, I haven't been following this thread, I'm not even an amateur botanist and while I own books written by Ken Green (who is a cold climate zoologist / herpetologist), I sort of doubt that claim. In my 30+ years of observing snow gums in a wide variety of environments across 3 states, it appears to me that they are very good at colonising new territory.

    To me, it looks like the things that most restrict snowgums are wind exposure and cold climate (thus they don't grow in "frost hollows" which are otherwise below the treeline). Think of places like Mt Jagungal, Camp Valley on Mt Bogong or most of the Baw Baw Plateau where you get trees growing on the higher altitude places while the valleys where cold air settles at night are free of snowgums. That applies even in well drained areas which are not boggy. Then there's that isolated and lonely snowgum growing on the windswept summit plateau of Mt Howitt. If they can colonise there, they can grow almost anywhere.

    Stored in a box somewhere, I have a 1917 proposal to build an early version of the Kiewa scheme by the Victorian Hydro Electric Company. They did a lot of surveying from 1911 and from memory, I think it includes photos of recognisable places featuring no trees at all circa 1914, but which now have an abundance of snowgums.
     
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  40. Chaeron

    Chaeron Ski-Hike-Blade-Bike-Kayak Ski Pass: Gold

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    Thx @Bogong - what you say seems to make a lot of sense. It’s probable that the research data is across too short a period...

    If you ever happen to stumble across that box....

    Here’s a pdf of the 1920 report (but no photos)

    https://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/papers/govpub/VPARL1920-2ndSessionNo15.pdf

    It has some interesting climate data...

    See this thread: https://www.ski.com.au/xf/threads/original-kiewa-hydro-scheme-plan.26286/ - @Bogong making a prominent contribution.

    I have posted some data there...
     
  41. Bogong

    Bogong Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Chaeron, I don't want to divert this horse related thread into a discussion of snowgums and/or Kiewa hydro, (they deserve their own threads) but the State Library of Victoria has a shorter version of the 1917 Kiewa proposal which was produced as a glossy fund raising brochure so they could begin building soon after World War I ended. But the state government awarded themselves an effective monopoly on new electricity generation in 1919, so the company went bust and nothing was built.

    I wrote a long and detailed history of hydro electricity in Victoria back in about 1997 to 2002. But I didn't have the money to print it and back then there was no easy way to publish things on the (dial up) internet. So it has sat in a box for 15 years and now I'm a bit scared to open it, because when I do, I will be confronted with over 1000 hours work to update it and beat it into presentable form. So unless someone pushes me hard or offers to assist me, it will stay in the box for the foreseeable future.
     
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  42. Chaeron

    Chaeron Ski-Hike-Blade-Bike-Kayak Ski Pass: Gold

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    Thx - publish it in unedited form - it’s a critical part of the renewable energy history of the State and thus has significant importance.
     
  43. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    @Chaeron I am not much of a botanist either but have seen the regrowth of the snowgums since the 2003 fires. I did not expect to see it return in my lifetime but now am more hopeful. If we can get rid of the ferals then BHP will return to what it used to be and I have already seen the difference since the last cattle were moved off in January of 2003. It is already turning out to be a good year for the wildflowers.
    I am very familiar with the mobs of horses you mention. The ones over Youngs way are very shy and there is another lot over toward Tawonga huts which we have got close to. The mob you see around Kellys formed two years ago when a small black stallion stole some mares and had to move a long way to avoid losing them. I first encountered him near Mt. Jim and he only had one mare with a foal at foot. Got to within 3 metres of him so he is pretty quiet but also trap shy. I believe he was trapped before and someone released him. We tracked them along the Langford aqueduct and they headed up the creek line which runs south of Fitz's hut and have made that area home. They wintered this year below the snow around Wildhorse Creek. The mares he has now are not typical of BHP horses and I suspect they have been seeded. Very big and lots of bays (brown/black). We got pretty close to them but one mare was very cranky. Trapping is underway and some have been removed already. The mob at Kellys (Nelse) is the number one priority and trapping is also underway around Youngs and Mt. Jim. This little stallion has been marked already for a bullet if it proves unsuccessful to trap him. I am told the guidelines will allow some horses to be shot if they cannot be trapped. It is probably better to keep him with the mob for the moment as without a stallion, the mares will wander in search of a new bloke.

    A new person has recently been appointed to take charge of the feral horse program and it has been extended on BHP to go all the way over to Dinner Plain. Trapping is also underway in the Cobberas but they do not expect to get them all. I have seen hundreds through the Cobberas so my guess there would be thousands.

    Shooting will come in Victoria but to appease people the other very expensive and less effective methods have been employed to start with. When the time comes, the job will be done fairly quick. I know the pro shooters currently being used for the deer program on BHP and they will get extra work. Horses are much easier to shoot than deer. The goal for BHP is zero horses and it will be achieved. Last count (aerial survey) was done just before winter and there were around 100 on BHP but that did not include south of Youngs.
     
  44. Rabid K9

    Rabid K9 A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Good to see 'on ground' knowledge.
     
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  45. Chaeron

    Chaeron Ski-Hike-Blade-Bike-Kayak Ski Pass: Gold

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    @Xplora thanks for such a full reply - really appreciate the information - everything you’ve outlined is in line with common sense and is a good approach by ParksVic.

    I was up at Young’s over the weekend - had a cuppa at the bottom of Paling Spur at the confluence of Swindler’s Creek and the Cobungra river with a party of 3 horseriders about to head up the plain for New Year’s and across to Pretty Valley and the Fainters. They’d come down from Diamantina via Blairs and Dungeys track - I’d just come down and they invited me to share their billy. We had a great chat.

    One of these folk remembers mustering cattle to come down past Fitzgeralds (Dinner Plain side)

    I was reading how Young at one time had over 1500 horses up on the South Side of the plain - difficult to imagine.
     
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  46. Chaeron

    Chaeron Ski-Hike-Blade-Bike-Kayak Ski Pass: Gold

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    Recent loss of sensitive, water-retaining grassland/ sphagnum bog to wild horse and/ or deer activity between Paling Spur and Young’s hut, about 700m North-east of the hut.

    Once the vegetation is gone then the soil is washed away and then the rocky base layer is exposed - takes a long time to recover.

     
  47. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    That would probably be Charlie Macs Hut. Fitzgeralds only had the one hut. McNamarra's may have had 3. Just a few moments ago got off the phone with the PV man doing the deer and horse control. Had a good catch up on many topics. Horse trapping is about to start again and the mob around Nelse have split. A new stallion has entered the field and taken some of the mares. His is big and has a white blaze. Seems a bit odd (not the usual for there) but we well get up there at some stage to check them out. You are so right about the sphaghum bogs. Deer control is also starting again on BHP from 10/1/2019. The last one was cancelled due to weather (storms).
     
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  48. Mister Tee on XC Skis

    Mister Tee on XC Skis A Local Ski Pass: Gold Ski Pass: Silver

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    Vermin Fawlty!
    Near Pole 267, AAWT, on the BHP. 12.1.19
     
  49. dawooduck

    dawooduck relaxed and comfortable Ski Pass: Gold

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    There has not been a horse removed from the KNP since early 2016. :(