Horses In National Parks, A Discussion.

Xplora

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A lot of deer getting taken locally these days, a small industry has sprung up.

Word in chatter says its making a difference.
I have heard some good and some bad reports regarding the operations on private property. A company is working in Vic but has to take everything to NSW as currently the legislation does not allow for commercial harvest of wild shot deer in Vic. Farmers initially were paid well for access but that has significantly dropped ($/kg). Farmers also have no control over who attends to shoot and there have been some complaints. The SSAA have a farmer's assist program and will provide free shooters to eradicate pests. All the ideas are good in principle. There is also a thriving black market sale of venison for dog meat.
If horses were declared a pest animal (instead of the current key threatening process) then things could change. Same with deer (which have been declared a pest on private land). The ADA argue declaring deer a pest will prevent their members shooting them on public land. Deer hunters argue it is illegal for them to shoot pest animals while they are out hunting deer. I argue back that I don't know of many deer hunters stalking who would take a shot at a cat and risk spooking a deer. Hunting a pest animal only requires a Registration of interest to hunt pest animals on Crown land in Victoria.
 

skifree

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A lot of deer getting taken locally these days, a small industry has sprung up.

Word in chatter says its making a difference.

Absolutely and fully happy that is the case.

But 465 carcasses a day, each and every day? That is a massive amount of meat to have lying about the bush or in folks deer pie.

Looking at some stats it looks like 60,000 dear carcasses were processed in 1999-00 with numbers declining after that to 27,857 carcasses in 2005-06. See page 12 in this report.
https://www.agrifutures.com.au/wp-content/uploads/publications/07-174.pdf

Annotation 2021-05-04 130001.jpg


And this is farmed deer, do they need the resource of wild deer for anything but a niche corner of the market?

Wild deer harvesting is a drop in the ocean to control feral deer, just as trapping feral horses is a drop in the ocean.

The only way to any sort of control for pigs, foxes, cats, deer, horses are large, long term, multi-faceted ideally no holds barred programs.
 

Camoman

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So that is 465 deer each and every day for a 365 day year. Or 19 deer for each and every hour of a year. I suspect this would be a land managers ultimate fantasy to achieve these sorts figures.

Or alternatively we assume rec hunters only go out on the weekend (wrong I know, but for the consideration of the numbers sake) that's 3,269 deer each and every weekend over the year.

More than fair assumption regards weekends only, as that would be the majority for sure. Of 42,000+ licensed persons, that is only 4.2 each per year. Easily achievable given the average do 6-7 weekends/year. It is amazing how quickly the numbers can stack up when the participation is there.

Lower bound of the confidence was 141,000 which reduces that to 3.3 per year each (https://www.gma.vic.gov.au/__data/a...700/Victorian-deer-harvest-Estimates-2019.pdf). Perhaps I could have said that number. It remains to be a hell of alot thou.

Imagine that applied to horses which don't have a fraction of the ability of deer to hide away :eek:... And no I have zero personal interest in helping with that although there are plenty of people with the cultural backgrounds that would love to!

The horse thing really is a problem that could literally be solved within months, entirely at the stroke of a pen.
 

Camoman

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And this is farmed deer, do they need the resource of wild deer for anything but a niche corner of the market?

It's all about perception. My MUM eats it now, even goes so far as to ask me when I am bringing more in. If you knew her.. that is really really saying something LOLLOL. Aussies are lamb and beef eaters. Familiarity drives what is wanted IMO.
 

Camoman

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Deer hunters argue it is illegal for them to shoot pest animals while they are out hunting deer.

Absolutely true in certain habitats in Victoria. It even goes so far that I cannot even pack my .22 to shoot some rabbits or hares around camp for the pot. Because then I would be carrying an illegal deer calibre into deer habitat. Plenty of pigs along the snowy river in the ANP, can I legally touch them.. no! Absolute insanity.

Not so in NSW. Have shot plenty of pigs, foxes & a few cats in the forests. Lots of rabbits and hares too. The onus is on the individual to be using the right tool for the job.
 

Xplora

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The only thing that stinks more than farts after eating lamb is after eating venison. My in laws love the venison we give them and are always after more. This from a woman who truly believes the kangaroo meat you buy at Coles comes from a kangaroo farm and they are herded onto trucks for processing. Kangaroo meat reacts badly with dogs.
Absolutely true in certain habitats in Victoria. It even goes so far that I cannot even pack my .22 to shoot some rabbits or hares around camp for the pot. Because then I would be carrying an illegal deer calibre into deer habitat. Plenty of pigs along the snowy river in the ANP, can I legally touch them.. no! Absolute insanity.
This is an area to lobby for some legislative change.
 
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Xplora

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So much crap and fake news on Fakebook. These idiots think the scientists making claims horses are doing damage have never spent time in the parks. A little farcical when you see some of these people who are standing up for the horses. They are calling for proof horses are doing damage.
Horse damage headwaters of Bundara.jpg


Horse damage headwaters of Bundara2.jpg




Only a few years ago this was just a tiny trickle. A narrow creek. No deer tracks were found and it is not a deer wallow. Horses alone have done this and we found plenty of hoof prints. It is the headwaters of the Bundara river. I have the GPS locations of all the new damage horses have done in the Nelse/Hollands knob area since 2017 and would be happy to take these idiots out to show them. All this damage was mapped by scientists in the field, photos taken and damage recorded. It was not attributed to deer.
 

Xplora

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Although not related to horses, there is currently a review of the Victorian Wildlife Act https://engage.vic.gov.au/independent-review-victorias-wildlife-act-1975 . This Act classifies deer as protected wildlife. There is some reason for the classification which essentially puts restrictions on hunters but it should not be interpreted as deer are in fact protected entirely (although it may seem that way). The protection offered under this Act is to enable the control of people and the humane shooting of deer. It sounds a bit odd but it flows to other legislation. Unfortunately some people latch onto this 'protection' offered to deer and misrepresent it when speaking about the need to protect horses but they only reference this protection in isolation of the other legislation.
 

Xplora

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Watched an interesting video today at this site https://www.facebook.com/groups/200553863482526/
It was an interview with an old Omeo local Ron Connelly. and it is supposed to be in support of the feral horses. What I found interesting is his insight into the history of horses on BHP which I have research extensively and he supports my findings. After Osborne Young sold his lease to the McNamarra's there were fewer horses on these runs and a multicolured stallion was brought in. This is a genetically dominant colour and these horses were not suitable for military. The Young's ran a couple of thousand horses and bred most for the military but they were mostly used as remounts for the Indian army. Ron says the McNamarra's were pretty lazy and did not like work and he also said horses were worth more than cattle before cars. After cars nobody needed horses as much. There was a muster attempted when Ron was young and the horses had not been touched in 10 years. The horses could not be held and they gave up. Ron said there were too many horses up there and admits the horses caused damage but goes on to blame humans (and deer) for doing more damage. I guess you could include the humans who ran cattle and horses in that also but I think he was referring to bushwalkers and ski resorts. The video also shows how their opinion is based entirely on economic reasons. 'Never seen so much grass up here. The cattle would be as fat as mud'. I have mentioned the contradictions before. Cattle graze the grass low on the mountain in summer to allegedly reduce fuel but then grass at home is knee high next to the house at the worst time of the year.

So what we have left behind on BHP are the remnants of those original horses bred by the Young's and McNamarra's and left behind due to neglect and incompetence or simply because they were not worth the effort. Some note has been made about the erosion damage around the trapyards but interestingly enough, this was the same method used to trap hundreds of horses by the Young's, only on a bigger scale and they cut down hundreds of trees to make the yards 8 or 9 foot tall.
 

Xplora

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This to show how poor the government's action has been on the control of other feral pests https://www.parks.vic.gov.au/projects/deer-and-feral-animal-control-in-response-to-bushfire
So much said about no action taken to control deer and pigs. Even rated a special mention in the East Gippsland council meeting hijacked by Sonia Buckley. https://www.bairnsdaleadvertiser.com.au/news/local-news/807-horse-shooting-slapped-down Sonia does not oppose shooting (ground or aerial) of deer and pigs. Shooting of deer is very much OK with her but that is not inhumane. What a hypocrite. Perhaps we should trap and re-home deer as well. She believes herself to be an environmentalist and has been very outspoken about the Stockman mining project at Benambra because of the damage it may cause. Only an environmentalist when it suits. None of these bleeding hearts ever come up with an idea of where to find homes for the horses. Will they take 500 a year out? Parks can't find 10 homes.
 

Camoman

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Great article which highlights the varied perception. Crazy isn't it. Some of their comments are borderline delusional in the way they can be so selective and show utter ignorance of whole truth.

They are part of the flora and fauna,” Mr Tilley said. “They have been with us for the best part of White Settlement". That must make the horses native.. Lets not forget then, sambar first introduced to Aust. in 1861 and fallow in 1844.

Cr Buckley also argued shooting the horses and leaving their carcasses on the forest floor causes negative impacts by providing “meat for feral pests which in turn creates a population explosion in pigs and wild dogs”. Sorry I forgot that all the other chopper shot pests weren't made of meat.. o_O
 

Xplora

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They are part of the flora and fauna,” Mr Tilley said. “They have been with us for the best part of White Settlement". That must make the horses native.. Lets not forget then, sambar first introduced to Aust. in 1861 and fallow in 1844.
You are spot on. This sums up the attitude perfectly. Nothing else matters except protecting the white heritage and the havoc it reeked on the environment. It has long been thought the feral horse is actually a Trojan horse for the re-introduction of cattle. If the government backs down to these people on this issue then it paves the way for every other bleeding heart to campaign for no control of any other feral pest. When you have the likes of the UTS Centre for Compassionate Conservation proclaiming feral cats should not be killed and wild donkeys help native animals find water by digging up the ground then to allow one pest special privileges above another is a slippery slope.
 

Majikthise

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I just love how he frames the ideological war as coming from ecological science against brumbies , history and culture.
empirical evidence v feels. ... and somehow it is empirical evidence that is ideological.
From anyone else, this would be very disturbing, from Bruz it is almost comedy.
 

Xplora

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Barilaro is delusional. Never use him as a ‘source’ @Ramshead
He is a constant source of humour which goes well in a book. Lately Bari has lost support from the horse nutters also because they feel he is not doing enough to protect the horses. He is fighting alright but only for himself. Pretty desperate stuff for a Deputy Premier to comment directly in this way. His comment could be read differently also:

"What a load of rubbish . Rewriting history on horse numbers doesn’t make it true . This is why I will fight everyday against the ideological war, against the Brumbies our history and our culture."

Just moved a comma and the meaning changes.
 

Chaeron

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@Ramshead of course you can end it just as the Friendly Jordies Honest John defamation case ends up going to the courts and the court of pubic opinion (not a typo) aka Youtube comments already having made up its mind…. plus a new (old) NSW Opposition leader…

Generational change. Saddle up for the new old world where self-replicating mutually exclusive media bubbles entrench old cliches and reinvigorate traditional battle lines.

It’s ugly and won’t get any prettier any time soon.

Well done on that submission!
 

Ramshead

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@Ramshead of course you can end it just as the Friendly Jordies Honest John defamation case ends up going to the courts and the court of pubic opinion (not a typo) aka Youtube comments already having made up its mind…. plus a new (old) NSW Opposition leader…

Generational change. Saddle up for the new old world where self-replicating mutually exclusive media bubbles entrench old cliches and reinvigorate traditional battle lines.

It’s ugly and won’t get any prettier any time soon.

Well done on that submission!
The Barilaro chapter is called "Bruz". Interviewed em both. Barra said I could launch it at state parly. Would love to get em both there in the middle of a lawsuit. Fun times if it happens. Longshot but gonna try
 

Ramshead

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@Ramshead respectfully understanding the perspective of people like Super Barilaro is what will make his book not only good, but potentially politically useful. It has the potential to be a circuit breaker in a culture war. (No expectations)
Has been an unbelievably hard job treading that line between respecting all views (within reason) and maintaining strong advocacy for the environment. Fallen off the tightrope at times I'm sure but the book ends on a strong note on the need to take the science seriously
 

Xplora

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The Federal legislation has a requirement for states to enact similar legislation to protect the environment and has handed over the responsibility. It may require some legislative change. Perhaps the states were given too much responsibility. At least the first shot has been fired.
 
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Xplora

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And the morons wanting to protect these horses are now looking at a class action suit against the government for
'psychological mental anguish & stress for the aggressive indiscriminate Trapping & Slaughter of Our Iconic Heritage Brumbies'
I think Fakebook is more to blame for mental stress and anguish.
 

skinavy

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And the morons wanting to protect these horses are now looking at a class action suit against the government for
'psychological mental anguish & stress for the aggressive indiscriminate Trapping & Slaughter of Our Iconic Heritage Brumbies'
I think Fakebook is more to blame for mental stress and anguish.
I can see that being as successful as Phil the Farmer's High Court case.
 

Legs Akimbo

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And the morons wanting to protect these horses are now looking at a class action suit against the government for
'psychological mental anguish & stress for the aggressive indiscriminate Trapping & Slaughter of Our Iconic Heritage Brumbies'
I think Fakebook is more to blame for mental stress and anguish.
Bring it on. They should be encouraged to waste their resources on futile lawsuits.
 
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Xplora

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Bring it on. They should be encouraged to waste their resources on futile lawsuits.
To think if something like this was legitimate then the entire country could be suing the governments. If they are suffering mental stress now then wait till the shooting starts.
I can see that being as successful as Phil the Farmer's High Court case.
To be fair. He did not lose his High Court case. Just the two Supreme court matters prior and then 'did a deal' on the High Court matter. And it is time again to remind the bleeding hearts that every action in court they have tried has failed. But the system is rigged. The next court they are trying is the court of public opinion with a media campaign. Lots of money needed to get their message out unless it plays on Southern Cross media. You can buy air time pretty cheap in the regionals.
 

skinavy

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To think if something like this was legitimate then the entire country could be suing the governments. If they are suffering mental stress now then wait till the shooting starts.

To be fair. He did not lose his High Court case. Just the two Supreme court matters prior and then 'did a deal' on the High Court matter. And it is time again to remind the bleeding hearts that every action in court they have tried has failed. But the system is rigged. The next court they are trying is the court of public opinion with a media campaign. Lots of money needed to get their message out unless it plays on Southern Cross media. You can buy air time pretty cheap in the regionals.
True, PV should have stuck to their guns (pun intended). As for Southern Cross yeah can buy airtime pretty cheap if you want middle of the night and don't pay attention to where broadcast. Hence getting adds for businesses in Nygan shown in Canberra...
 

skifree

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And the morons wanting to protect these horses are now looking at a class action suit against the government for
'psychological mental anguish & stress for the aggressive indiscriminate Trapping & Slaughter of Our Iconic Heritage Brumbies'
I think Fakebook is more to blame for mental stress and anguish.

I see an alternative case, a class action for those stressed out that KNP is being destroyed & species going extinct due to lack of action by Parks to remove feral animals including horses from KNP.
 

Xplora

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I am not sure those thinking about psychological stress claims have ever thought about the cost of assessment and ongoing treatment. A big rush on psychologists with people all claiming the same problem and all starting at the same time. Thinking out the process of their complaint is not a strong point and then when dissected by lawyers and investigators it will all fall apart pretty quick. If you think what an insurance company does then times it by ten you will understand how a government treats a class action with no foundation.

It is all quite funny but there may be a firm out there somewhere willing to take it on (or just take some money). Retainer? Upward of $100K? Pro Bono? Unlikely. I could recommend a firm. It has experience with defending these people already.
 
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zapruda

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An article from today’s Guardian. This just goes round and round in circles. In the meantime the damage continues.
Exactly my thought when I read it. How many of the same articles can we have. Absolutely infuriating.
 
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Xplora

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The reason we so much of the same pushed out in the media is to keep it in the general public's eye. Fifteen minutes later and it is probably forgotten so it needs to be reinforced. Most people would think the problem had been solved if it was not heard of regularly. It will also lead people to the new management plan for KNP and maybe there will be a lot more comment. When it is in the media constantly, politicians also take notice and then more media outlets pick it up and ask questions. The same tactic is used by the pro horse people so it has to be countered.
 

Spence

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The reason we so much of the same pushed out in the media is to keep it in the general public's eye. Fifteen minutes later and it is probably forgotten so it needs to be reinforced. Most people would think the problem had been solved if it was not heard of regularly. It will also lead people to the new management plan for KNP and maybe there will be a lot more comment. When it is in the media constantly, politicians also take notice and then more media outlets pick it up and ask questions. The same tactic is used by the pro horse people so it has to be countered.
I totally agree. What I meant when I said that it goes round in circles was that I still can’t understand how the powers that be are not doing anything about the problem. All the studies and science is there. How many more times does it have to be sai? Well past time for action to be taken.
 

blowfin

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It's not about science, it's about a revised history, living in the past, the vibe, those big brown eyes, revenge for having land taken away to create the park in the first place.
Yeah, these are the feels I get in WA re: they're taking "our land". Foresty is that upset and salty about being locked out of native logging and the like that their club of old cronies running DBCA seems dead set on burning everything until there's no native forest left to preserve. Excuses for dropping incendiaries into national parks and conservation areas, with almost gauranteed disastrous results, are endless. I really love it when they do the cultural appropriation thing and say it's "traditional burning". Some other good ones include trees "loving fire", the bush needing fire to persist, the old "it'll grow back" argument, and of course the scare tactics that get used with dire warnings of "massive fires". If you talk to the right DBCA officer they'll also tell you your opinion on fire is invalid and ill informed, unless you're part of a volunteer fire brigade. It's not about science, it's about money, greed, and propaganda.
 
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