Horses In National Parks, A Discussion.

Xplora

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We also used to hunt whales too. But it’s a romanticised idea of history that they want to cling on to, not fact. But hey, he’s appearing on Sky, where facts don’t matter.
Whaling is probably the best example to throw at these people. He hit most of the other right wing media outlets also. Doubt he would get a good run out of the other majors. A romanticised and largely fictitious idea with what really happened (or anything that conflicts with today's view) not mentioned. This would be the other inconvenient truth.
 

Chaeron

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Whaling is probably the best example to throw at these people. He hit most of the other right wing media outlets also. Doubt he would get a good run out of the other majors. A romanticised and largely fictitious idea with what really happened (or anything that conflicts with today's view) not mentioned. This would be the other inconvenient truth.
Romance, fantasy and nostalgia sells in a time when these folks feel disenfranchised and with their backs to the wall. Sad, but true.

A large part of the struggle with getting the conservation message across is that talking about habitat destruction is a doom and gloom message. Sad, but true.

The return of the whales is a good news story that resonates well with folks - It provides a good template for how one can talk about the importance of preserving the alpine environment- a cute pic. of a snow possum may be more effective than pics. of trampled sphagnum bogs….
We need some regional tourism dollars spent on glossy mags and upbeat YouTube clips showcasing cute animals requiring protection and celebrating conservation sucesses
 
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Edgecrusher

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Romance, fantasy and nostalgia sells in a time when these folks feel disenfranchised and with their backs to the wall. Sad, but true.

A large part of the struggle with getting the conservation message across is that talking about habitat destruction is a doom and gloom message. Sad, but true.

The return of the whales is a good news story that resonates well with folks - It provides a good template for how one can talk about the importance of preserving the alpine environment- a cute pic. of a snow possum may be more effective than pics. of trampled sphagnum bogs….
We need some regional tourism dollars spent on glossy mags and upbeat YouTube clips showcasing cute animals requiring protection and celebrating conservation sucesses
Absolutely. How often do we see articles and bits on tv news of the annual whale migration up the eastern coast of Australia? Compare that with the widespread condemnation by Australians of Japanese hunting of whales for 'scientific reasons'.

A focus on the critters that are under threat would be a better way to 'sell' the push against the feral horses.
 

Xplora

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These are some great comments above. Do a comparison photo and ask which would you rather. A cute little mountain pygmy possum or a mangy and runted horse.

To continue the 'saving the culture' theme while I am in a ranting mood on hold to NSW Health, the same culture Cochran seeks to protect is the one that bred thousands of horses and sold them off to the Army for lots of money. It was a lucrative enterprise and they did not care the horses would be killed. Horses were transport or had value hauling. They also had some military strategic value for a time. The charge at Beersheba is an example of how horses could be used because of their ability to move to a gallop quickly. They covered ground faster than the Turks could adjust their guns and the Australians over ran the trenches. None were brumbies. A great story, great history but nothing to do with ferals in the park. Once there was no longer a good market for the horses they were just left to breed wildly and spread. Typical Australian behaviour. I can't make money of it now so I will just walk away and leave my rubbish behind.

Come on Peter, if all you have is poem and some false facts about brumbies at Beersheba then you are in trouble.
 

Chaeron

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Absolutely. How often do we see articles and bits on tv news of the annual whale migration up the eastern coast of Australia? Compare that with the widespread condemnation by Australians of Japanese hunting of whales for 'scientific reasons'.

A focus on the critters that are under threat would be a better way to 'sell' the push against the feral horses.
@Ramshead - we need you to do a mini-series for Channel 7 on the cute critters of the Alps! There’s money in them thar hills…!! :fishing:
 

Xplora

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One of the biggest problems we all face (both sides of the debate) are those who are so hard line with their views they will not comprise their position to find a solution. The 'extremists', for want of better way to describe them, are rising to the top of the debate and securing the ear of key decision makers or opposition members of parliament. While these people lock horns the problem continues because nothing gets done. I am speaking to both sides and I know both read this.

I would love to have a sit down with those on the other side of the debate who are pushing for legislation in Victoria to protect the horses but it would not achieve anything as their dogma has taken over and it would be like convincing a flat earther he is wrong. Some of these people are clearly very logical and intelligent and perhaps they are managing their campaign to whip up support among those who are easily led with this hard line 'horses do no damage' 'brumbies gave their lives for us at war' attitude. If that is the case then it would be a manipulation and I can't help but think this is happening. I have read one leading person who is pushing the pro horse, horses do no damage line actually agree horses damage the environment. It feels like a propaganda war at them moment with both sides playing to the media trying to swing the vote of people who are not even vaguely interested. But if you get a politician (or a celebrity) on your side then you score a point.
 
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Newsteve

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It seems to me that it comes down to a vote counting exercise for the pollys. If they think there are enough votes to be gained or lost on a side they say or do something.
I try to email my local man every so often and pick on some recent action to congratulate him and urge him on. But sitting at home in Northern Sydney, locked down, it's hard to get motivated at the moment. (no skiing this year???)
Maybe when it warms up and its time to go fishing the high streams again I will pull myself out of my funk and do something.
And yes, it is important, I think, to find that reasonable middle line. Manage the horse numbers, to protect the environment. Not go for the scorched earth approach.

I did note with interest a potential new poison for pigs (Piggone). I suspect we are going to need something for deer also very soon. But no matter what we do, the horse (rabbit, pig, deer, etc) has bolted. Once out they will never be put back in the box (yard). It looks like we have a lot of management ahead.
 
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Xplora

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The push to get celebrities into this fight goes harder. Someone has suggested Slim Dusty get on board and write to the politicians. If they can achieve this then I would let every single feral horse stay in the park and trash it completely without uttering a single objection.
 

teletripper

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The push to get celebrities into this fight goes harder. Someone has suggested Slim Dusty get on board and write to the politicians. If they can achieve this then I would let every single feral horse stay in the park and trash it completely without uttering a single objection.
A indication of how switched on, informed and up to date many of these individuals are. RIP Slim.
 

Ramshead

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@Ramshead - The Olympics are torturing horses!? These horses could be better used in the Aussie Alps to live a happy, free and non jumping life?
Haha indeed. Meanwhile where are the annual #nuptothecup activists? Equestrian is 100 times crueller than flat (non jumps) horse racing
 

Xplora

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A rosette strain gauge is used to determine bone stress and specific tests have been done on horses jumping in comparison to other gates.

Stress on bones and soft tissue increases with speed and also jumping. Add to it the weight of a person and it is pretty clear jumping is substantially more damaging for the horse. Training and breeding can help develop horses more suited to this impact. People advocating animal rights should not ride horses. Heavy people should not ride horses and riding schools now have a 100kg limit on riders. If you consider shooting a horse cruel then you should consider riding them cruel also.
 

skifree

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If you consider shooting a horse cruel then you should consider riding them cruel also.

I do consider horse riding as an unnecessary burden on the horse, but also know that suddenly puts me in the extremist category and therefore less absolutely unlikely to make any impact whatsoever on the debate. So I keep such thoughts to myself.
 

Xplora

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The Fakebook horse heroine's are at it again spreading absolute blatant lies and rewriting history. Now they are saying Sandy, the only horse that came back from WWI, was born on the Bogong High Plains. She stupidly quotes a SMH article that states it was born in Tallangatta and donated by the brickmaker brothers O'Donnell. A comment that Tallangatta was near Bogong High Plains seems to be enough for these people. Also mentioned was Osborne Young as a breeder of horses for WWI and the Lighthorse. Osborne sold the last of his licences in 1913. That is from government records so he could not have sold horses as remounts. Wait until Bev McAther gets onto this. It will be mentioned in parliament and history will be forever changed. Lying in parliament is accepted practise.
 

skifree

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The Fakebook horse heroine's are at it again spreading absolute blatant lies and rewriting history. Now they are saying Sandy, the only horse that came back from WWI, was born on the Bogong High Plains. She stupidly quotes a SMH article that states it was born in Tallangatta and donated by the brickmaker brothers O'Donnell. A comment that Tallangatta was near Bogong High Plains seems to be enough for these people. Also mentioned was Osborne Young as a breeder of horses for WWI and the Lighthorse. Osborne sold the last of his licences in 1913. That is from government records so he could not have sold horses as remounts. Wait until Bev McAther gets onto this. It will be mentioned in parliament and history will be forever changed. Lying in parliament is accepted practise.


It’s still no justification for keeping a destructive feral animal in environment that should be afforded the highest protection.
 

Xplora

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It’s still no justification for keeping a destructive feral animal in environment that should be afforded the highest protection.
Not by any stretch but all you need to do is whip up the patriots and get the 'how dare they' from people who would much rather believe the lies than check it out, it spreads like the Delta strain. So now we have to deal with thousands of people believing the Bogong horses are directly related to the only horse to return from the war. Putting a brake on these lies is important but never expect a politician to care about the facts. They only care about what is convenient at the time. The other problem is the current Vic government are not very good at listening to those who know.
 

teletripper

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The online comments to just the promo segment already on the ABC Landline Facebook page are interesting.
So much vitriol, so much ignorance and so much uninformed opinion (on both ends of the debate).
 
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Edgecrusher

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The online comments already to the just promo segment are interesting.
So much vitriol, so much ignorance and uninformed opinion (on both ends of the debate).
Why should we listen to epidemiologists and medical scientists and not people that have a lifetime of good health without vaccinations?

Something something people with vested interests something. Resistance to change, wanting things to stay the same, ignoring problems, wilful blindness, etc, etc.
 

zapruda

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abc online news today


Death threats, vandalism and abuse: The battle over brumbies in the high country
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08...gh-country-kosciuszko-national-park/100372254
I’m glad Dave Darlington was interviewed. That guy knows his stuff.

And what a surprise, Caldwell at it again. THEY WERE LEASES. That land never belonged to her family. If she spent a few days riding around Long Plain or Currango rather than Jindabyne she would see that that 10k number is pretty bang on. I’ll remind everyone as well that this “horse lover” is on the record saying that brumby running and traditional trapping methods should be used to catch them. Not shooting though… Shooting is too cruel…

“The brumbies are the last little bit of the heritage that’s left. And that’s why there is such an intense feeling about it,”

^ This argument drives me nuts. What about the huts, old stock routes, yards, fence lines, bridle trails, poetry, paintings, writing etc

Of course not. That wouldn’t fit the narrative.
 
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skinavy

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I’m glad Dave Darlington was interviewed. That guy knows his stuff.

And what a surprise, Caldwell at it again. THEY WERE LEASES. That land never belonged to her family. If she spent a few days riding around Long Plain or Currango rather than Jindabyne she would see that that 10k number is pretty bang on. I’ll remind everyone as well that this “horse lover” is on the record saying that brumby running and traditional trapping methods should be used to catch them. Not shooting though… Shooting is too cruel

“The brumbies are the last little bit of the heritage that’s left. And that’s why there is such an intense feeling about it,”

^ This argument drives me nuts. What about the huts, old stock routes, yards, fence lines, bridle trails, poetry, paintings, wirting etc

Of course not. That wouldn’t fit the narrative.
Caldwell is a QAnon, sovereign citizen nutbag. They should brought that up.
 

dawooduck

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I’m glad Dave Darlington was interviewed. That guy knows his stuff.

And what a surprise, Caldwell at it again. THEY WERE LEASES. That land never belonged to her family. If she spent a few days riding around Long Plain or Currango rather than Jindabyne she would see that that 10k number is pretty bang on. I’ll remind everyone as well that this “horse lover” is on the record saying that brumby running and traditional trapping methods should be used to catch them. Not shooting though… Shooting is too cruel

“The brumbies are the last little bit of the heritage that’s left. And that’s why there is such an intense feeling about it,”

^ This argument drives me nuts. What about the huts, old stock routes, yards, fence lines, bridle trails, poetry, paintings, wirting etc

Of course not. That wouldn’t fit the narrative.

Quite bitter that one, also conspiracy theorist and covid denialist. Local council employed office worker.

Long and deep local heritage connections, full patriot.
 

Telezacski

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Quite bitter that one, also conspiracy theorist and covid denialist. Local council employed office worker.

Long and deep local heritage connections, full patriot.
She turns up the connection big time. Family moved away for about 80 years before coming back. There are plenty of others with a continuous connection who aren't nut bags like she is.
 

shabu_shabu

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Death threats, vandalism and abuse: The battle over brumbies in the high country
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08...gh-country-kosciuszko-national-park/100372254
This is an article in the lead up to a feature on Landline this Sunday. Probably worth watching (although Landline is always worth watching).

Just on the article, I don’t think the pro brumbies advocate has done their cause much good.
Q Why should the brumbies be allowed?
A Just because. And I don’t trust those fancy pants scientists.
 

Dropbear

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abc online news today

Death threats, vandalism and abuse: The battle over brumbies in the high country
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08...gh-country-kosciuszko-national-park/100372254

Videos of wild horses running are very emotively loaded. There wasn't much comparable footage of native fauna...

Are there any larger scale fenced off areas inside the park that can demonstrate what the mountains should look like if the environment wasn't overrun by feral horses?
 

Slowman

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Videos of wild horses running are very emotively loaded. There wasn't much comparable footage of native fauna...

Are there any larger scale fenced off areas inside the park that can demonstrate what the mountains should look like if the environment wasn't overrun by feral horses?
I have seen some photos of a large fenced area in Victoria which is a very compelling contrast to the barren mess in the un-fenced area next to it. I can’t recall the location. Xplora may be familiar with it.

There has also been a small fenced area at Bullocks Flat in NSW. However the last time I walked past it some kind of clearing had been done inside it. Not sure why. Around that area I think the problem is more deer than horses.
 

Telemark Phat

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zapruda

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Videos of wild horses running are very emotively loaded. There wasn't much comparable footage of native fauna...

Are there any larger scale fenced off areas inside the park that can demonstrate what the mountains should look like if the environment wasn't overrun by feral horses?

Before the fires Namadgi was a perfect example of what recently un-grazed sub alpine looked like.

There are also exclosures at Cowombat flat.

But we all know grazing reduces blazing, so those exclosures are just a hazard. :rolleyes:
 

hongomania

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Same story in Australia since white man arrived. Degrade the environment

The pro horse crowd is all bleeding heart and anecdotes

Place is trashed. The numbers are accurate. Don't think the horse supporters are getting out to the places deep in the national parks I am on a regular basis and seeing the damage first hand, to support their anecdotal evidence

We shouldn't call them brumbies, it evokes too much positivity imo. They are feral horses, they shouldn't have a specific name
 

Xplora

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I have seen some photos of a large fenced area in Victoria which is a very compelling contrast to the barren mess in the un-fenced area next to it. I can’t recall the location. Xplora may be familiar with it.

There has also been a small fenced area at Bullocks Flat in NSW. However the last time I walked past it some kind of clearing had been done inside it. Not sure why. Around that area I think the problem is more deer than horses.
The other well know exclusion plots are at the headwaters of the Murray. Cowombat flat has been going for many years but I have not visited them for some time. When we were there,
horses were a plenty and we were charged by a stallion.
cowombat flat.jpg


The plots look brown and outside is green. That is because the horses are eating the grass and it re-shoots. The tall brown grass provides habitat for small native animals. You can see the damage to the waterway clearly. This is all horse damage. Not pigs and not deer. The bleeding hearts will say the green grass is a good thing as fires will not burn it. The brown grass is called a fire hazard. Their perspective is fire is bad and we have to destroy the environment to prevent fires from impacting us.
And to repeat some of my earlier comments, the cultural perspective should be to slaughter the feral horses as the pioneer farmers and forebears did because they were considered pests. They didn't carry our soldiers to war, they didn't help white man open up the country but they did compete for grass and run off with valued stock. Considered poor specimens and only fit for hide, hair, dog meat and sport. Lets have an honest debate about tradition and heritage.
 

Dropbear

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Thanks Tele!

The ABC article is one of many discussing the feral horses issue over the years. The most important point in it is that "it's not anti-horse, it's pro-native animals and plants".

But they missed the most important thing. They need to show us the actual evidence of what an untrampled alpine environment should look like.

Surely these kinds of studies are a vital step in enabling better evidence-based decision making, like aerial shooting being the most humane and effective way we can deal with the scale of this problem.

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