Horses In National Parks, A Discussion.

Xplora

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The authorities could always set up something like a ..... "feral animal eradication force" to work in National Parks and State forests. Hunters are not there to eradicate, they are there to pursue the recreational past time of "hunting".
It is true that hunters do not want to eradicate. Most deer hunters will leave the old hind because the meat is too tough and she is the breeder. They will take a stag to mount and young ones for meat. Amateur hunters have been used in Victoria with mixed success. Amatuers have also been used to control other pest species. On the Bogong High Plains they have not done well but around Wilson's prom where Hog deer are more prevlent they do better. Certainly deer species that herd are easier than Sambar. Generally speaking though, it is the professional shooter who has done better. More bang for buck. Deer hunters are objecting to the pest classification because there is a threat that their sport will be made harder but then once the deer numbers are down the cowboys and poachers will also disappear.
There is no argument for horse lovers that aerial culling is inhumane if they allow it to occur for other pests. I certainly have not heard them complain about this happening. Throw that back at them.
And I am certainly not anti gun. I own guns and shoot pests. I am anti gun lobby who are always in search of relaxing Australia's gun laws and increasing access for hunters in National Parks.
 

Ubiquitous Steve

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Professional shooters and recreational shooters still belong to the so called “Gun Club”

So it maybe best not to demonise them...by association with a
gun club label.

Regardless of the support by scroggin eating bushwalkers for a cull ...aerial or otherwise ....they ain’t the ones doing the dirty work!

Not all Recreational Hunters are necessarily pushing for watering down of the present gun laws!

But the Team have an idea for KNP......
 

skifree

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There have been some problems with the program as once the farmer registers he no longer has control over who shoots on his property.

That is a really fcukt up part of shooters rights, and a farmers no rights.

And exactly why there were locked gates, no shooting signs, no access signs, piss off trespassers signs, the whole lot at my Mum's farm. And they still found shooters wandering around shooting at anything that moved, looking for wounded animals apparently. Not that Mum could figure out how a wounded rabbit was going to get through their daily checked rabbit proof fence.
 

Ubiquitous Steve

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What about the non scrogging eating bushwalkers? Can we object to lack of feral animal control and advocate for any feral animal control that works as well?
Yes....but Team Bears suggest that you get more than vocal as the Kosy environment degrades before your eyes!
But looks like you might have to deploy men/women with guns and flying machines....and trust their credentials are good as professional shooters ....and they don’t get lost and set off their Beacons!
Team Bears still favour a go slow by Parks Staff in NSW....surely they could all drive around in low gear for a week or more as a protest!

Man ...that four day search at Mt Buffalo must have flushed out a lot of feral critters in hiding!
 

Ubiquitous Steve

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And perhaps time to reconstitute the soil conservation authority for an overall management strategy!
Reinventing the old could be productive! Holy moly this just gets worse by the scroggin eating minute!
 
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Xplora

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My objection has been with the gun lobby and not your average gun owner, of which I am one. The gun lobby's objectives are plain and that would be to roll back the current gun legislation to allow semi autos as well as take away the gun registry. In addition there are those seeking to obtain conceal and carry permits for handguns as well as supressors. I am not demonising the average gun owner, just those who would destroy what has been hard fought. The SSAA contribute the most of their political money to Bob Katter's party and his son is one of the biggest importers of guns in this country and also one of the people of whom I speak. This would state clearly the objectives of the SSAA. The SSAA has lobbied for all these changes to gun laws but have benefited the most from these laws as people who want a gun must show a membership in a gun club at the very least. SSAA membership has grown considerably and all that is needed is a regular range shoot. Those who can show cause can still obtain the firepower needed for pest control.
Some people with absolutely no idea get on here and act like a troll, contributing nothing more than garbage in the hope someone thinks they are funny or they can rouse an argument. I have been involved in feral animal control for NPWS, I also personally know the pros doing the shooting for PV on BHP and have met a number of the volunteers. I regularly meet with those running the horse trapping and deer control activities. With that I receive a broader overview of the entire problem and also submitted to the inclusion of horses as a key threatening process. You would hope others here have enough interest in the problem (as well as solutions) to offer more than quip remarks and memes. Not a fan of scroggin either.
Que..... rant to follow.
 

dawooduck

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I have the idea I may one day "harvest" game from our place and the surrounding area all within the current rules regime.

Our neighbour employs professionals to cull roo from time to time and has permission to access our property.

There are a few deer about.
 

Telemark Phat

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It is true that hunters do not want to eradicate. Most deer hunters will leave the old hind because the meat is too tough and she is the breeder. They will take a stag to mount and young ones for meat. Amateur hunters have been used in Victoria with mixed success. Amatuers have also been used to control other pest species. On the Bogong High Plains they have not done well but around Wilson's prom where Hog deer are more prevlent they do better. Certainly deer species that herd are easier than Sambar. Generally speaking though, it is the professional shooter who has done better. More bang for buck. Deer hunters are objecting to the pest classification because there is a threat that their sport will be made harder but then once the deer numbers are down the cowboys and poachers will also disappear.
There is no argument for horse lovers that aerial culling is inhumane if they allow it to occur for other pests. I certainly have not heard them complain about this happening. Throw that back at them.
And I am certainly not anti gun. I own guns and shoot pests. I am anti gun lobby who are always in search of relaxing Australia's gun laws and increasing access for hunters in National Parks.
Amateur hunters can be effective in feral control, if the necessary resources are dedicated to coordinating their efforts, and if they are volunteering their time and resources to control ferals rather than hunting for trophies.
 

Telemark Phat

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Perhaps a “go slow “protest could be organised by KNP staff....to bring more focus on this equine disaster.
But they are already going pretty slow compared to their counter parts in VIC....:whistle:
Perhaps their “vision “statement could be revised...and provision made for “living in a degraded landscape and techniques that visitors may take “:p
You should have a look at some of the research about the environmental quality of the Australian Alps. Protected areas and water catchments: The Australian Alps

Catchments.JPG
 
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Xplora

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This just in. Aerial culling of deer will commence on the Bogong High Plains between 6th and 17th May, for 3 or 4 days mid week weather dependent. Large areas of the Park will be closed during that time. I have more details and a map but internet is poor today so I will get that sorted in due coarse. Perhaps a thread of its own.
Amateur hunters can be effective in feral control, if the necessary resources are dedicated to coordinating their efforts, and if they are volunteering their time and resources to control ferals rather than hunting for trophies.
I have said the same but they have not been overly affective on the Bogong High Plains in comparison to the pros. Volunteers still cost and the costs have been factored for both pros and volunteers on the ground and helicopter. Helicopter has worked out the cheapest for numbers shot.
I have the idea I may one day "harvest" game from our place and the surrounding area all within the current rules regime.

Our neighbour employs professionals to cull roo from time to time and has permission to access our property.

There are a few deer about.
It is certainly worthwhile. Although I have butchered before, doing a sheep a week mostly, we did a specific deer butchering course which was very informative. We tried the meat also on the day and decided it was something we could eat and also do for ourselves. We now take orders from friends and family for the small goods and enjoy many other cuts. Deer, like Kangaroo, is often served rare when in a steak so you need to be very careful about parasites. Thorough cooking usually sorts them out but venison can get tough that way.
 

teletripper

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The Barmah forest draft plan is out for comment. You can find it here. https://engage.vic.gov.au/barmah-strategic-action-plan
Without trying to be preachy, can I encourage anyone who has concerns about allowing a similar situation to what has played out with the NSW KNP horse situation spreading to Victoria and in turn flowing onto conservation reserves across the country, now is the time to make a formal submission to the Barmah plan to indicate your support, even if you don’t live in Victoria or visit Barmah. You can bet that the brumby loving fraternity and anti parks activists from right across the country and internationally are mobilising to bring Parks Vic unstuck on this one. If Parks Vic and it’s political masters go weak at the knees on the Barmah plan through lack of general community support, then you can kiss good bye to any rational approach to feral horse control in the Vic Alps, any chance of redeeming the ridiculous situation of controlling and managing ferals in NSW or SE Australia for that matter. No use just voicing your opinions on social media. Need to make your views known via the formal channels. Only takes 10 minutes online.
 

Ubiquitous Steve

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Parks VIC ...as much as we have misgivings about their management and operational activities ....is not likely to buckle on the horse issues.They have some dedicated personnel .:thumbs:....I think they will stand and fight for the environmental good of the lands they administer.;)

NSW is a basket case of bumblies....KNP needs to grow some balls and to fight harder on this issue!:(
Yes bumblies not just brumbies...:eek:...to many ferals in Management not willing to stand firm !
 

Xplora

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Prof Don Driscoll sent me the links below for a bit of light reading. If your into that sort of stuff then knock yourself out. Essentially though it will show the overwhelming scientific and evidenced based reasoning which people like Cochrane believe is garbage. Given the evidence I could also see Cochrane believing the earth is flat and the moon is made of cheese. I think it was Cochrane who said he wouldn't trust a scientist as far as he could kick one. Lovely talk from a former elected representative of the state.


Feral horses in the Australian Alps: an introduction to the special issue
Professor Don Driscoll; Dr Benjamin Scheele; Dr Tein McDonald

Science as an antidote to horse trading in the Australian Alps
Prof Richard James (Dick) Williams

Science and evolving community knowledge and opinion on feral horses in Kosciuszko National Park
Deirdre Slattery

How can the social sciences work with ecology in informing feral horse policy and management in south‐eastern Australia?
Alexandra R. Knight

Rehabilitation and revegetation of the Kosciuszko summit area, following the removal of grazing – An historic review
Roger Good Stuart Johnston

An assessment of feral horse impacts on treeless drainage lines in the Australian Alps
Geoff Robertson John Wright Daniel Brown Kally Yuen David Tongway

The occurrence of the Broad‐toothed Rat Mastacomys fuscus in relation to feral Horse impacts
Martin Schulz Mellesa Schroder Ken Green

Impacts of feral horses and deer on an endangered woodland of Kosciuszko National Park
Jessica Ward‐Jones Ian Pulsford Richard Thackway Dipak Bishwokarma David Freudenberger

Feral horse impacts on threatened plants and animals in sub‐alpine and montane environments in Victoria, Australia
Rebecca C. Cherubin Susanna E. Venn Don A. Driscoll Tim S. Doherty Euan G. Ritchie

Modelling horse management in the Australian Alps
Nicholas J. Beeton Christopher N. Johnson

Impacts of feral horses in the Australian Alps and evidence‐based solutions
Don A. Driscoll Graeme L. Worboys Hugh Allan Sam C. Banks Nicholas J. Beeton Rebecca C. Cherubin Tim S. Doherty C. Max Finlayson Ken Green Renée Hartley Geoffrey Hope Chris N. Johnson Mark Lintermans Brendan Mackey David J. Paull Jamie Pittock Luciana L. Porfirio Euan G. Ritchie Chloe F. Sato Ben C. Scheele Deirdre A. Slattery Susanna Venn David Watson Maggie Watson Richard M. Williams

Feral horse impacts: The Kosciuszko Science Conference
Casey Gibson

The Kosciuszko Science Accord

Notice of and reasons for the Final Determination
 

Ubiquitous Steve

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All those knowledgeable papers and still KNP is a feral horse disaster.

Where to now?
NSW has become an embarrassment for Team Bears environmental colleagues
B5125787-3690-4D1A-82ED-033436BC0252.png
 

Telemark Phat

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Prof Don Driscoll sent me the links below for a bit of light reading. If your into that sort of stuff then knock yourself out. Essentially though it will show the overwhelming scientific and evidenced based reasoning which people like Cochrane believe is garbage. Given the evidence I could also see Cochrane believing the earth is flat and the moon is made of cheese. I think it was Cochrane who said he wouldn't trust a scientist as far as he could kick one. Lovely talk from a former elected representative of the state.


Feral horses in the Australian Alps: an introduction to the special issue
Professor Don Driscoll; Dr Benjamin Scheele; Dr Tein McDonald

Science as an antidote to horse trading in the Australian Alps
Prof Richard James (Dick) Williams

Science and evolving community knowledge and opinion on feral horses in Kosciuszko National Park
Deirdre Slattery

How can the social sciences work with ecology in informing feral horse policy and management in south‐eastern Australia?
Alexandra R. Knight

Rehabilitation and revegetation of the Kosciuszko summit area, following the removal of grazing – An historic review
Roger Good Stuart Johnston

An assessment of feral horse impacts on treeless drainage lines in the Australian Alps
Geoff Robertson John Wright Daniel Brown Kally Yuen David Tongway

The occurrence of the Broad‐toothed Rat Mastacomys fuscus in relation to feral Horse impacts
Martin Schulz Mellesa Schroder Ken Green

Impacts of feral horses and deer on an endangered woodland of Kosciuszko National Park
Jessica Ward‐Jones Ian Pulsford Richard Thackway Dipak Bishwokarma David Freudenberger

Feral horse impacts on threatened plants and animals in sub‐alpine and montane environments in Victoria, Australia
Rebecca C. Cherubin Susanna E. Venn Don A. Driscoll Tim S. Doherty Euan G. Ritchie

Modelling horse management in the Australian Alps
Nicholas J. Beeton Christopher N. Johnson

Impacts of feral horses in the Australian Alps and evidence‐based solutions
Don A. Driscoll Graeme L. Worboys Hugh Allan Sam C. Banks Nicholas J. Beeton Rebecca C. Cherubin Tim S. Doherty C. Max Finlayson Ken Green Renée Hartley Geoffrey Hope Chris N. Johnson Mark Lintermans Brendan Mackey David J. Paull Jamie Pittock Luciana L. Porfirio Euan G. Ritchie Chloe F. Sato Ben C. Scheele Deirdre A. Slattery Susanna Venn David Watson Maggie Watson Richard M. Williams

Feral horse impacts: The Kosciuszko Science Conference
Casey Gibson

The Kosciuszko Science Accord

Notice of and reasons for the Final Determination
Those authors are a pretty significant who's who in Australian Alpine Studies.
 

Xplora

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Interesting article which raises many issues. We put our order in for hay last year when we picked up from our small local farmer. He did not bale this year but that was due to illness. It would not have been much anyway if he did. It cost us 3 times more this year to buy hay as everything had sold out locally. Hired a truck and drove to the bottom of Vic and that was cheaper than having a small load delivered. We are looking for another horse at the moment and they are cheap to buy with the excuse for sale as 'moving' very common. All the photos show horses on bare dirt. Giving a horse away is also giving it to someone who will sell it for dog food. They send their ladies to do the pickup and the person is duped into thinking it is going to a loving home. We are also looking to sell a horse but that is hard at the moment when nobody has feed. Spending $700/wk on feed for these animals is ridiculous enough without it going to $1200. Saving them from being dog food only to allow them to starve is cruel. I also know of some so called horse rescuers who run a good business from it. They can buy horses cheap at the sale yards and only have to outbid the doggers. Fatten them up when feed is plentiful, give them some basic work and on sell with the tag of rescued horse. They can make up to $1000 for a good horse but in hard times like now they cry poor and make you think they have been doing a charitable service for the horses.

Same thing will happen with the rescued feral horse. People already make money out of it because they get the horse for free. People up the road just bought one and I will be there today to check it out and likely it will end up at our place to get the necessary training to make it suitable. The racehorse industry is not good. Horses are only a commodity and thousands are bred and discarded once they prove to be useless to the trainer. I have two of them now. Both good horses for what I want, both rescue horses sold to ladies and both I got for nothing from them but they are not horses for people who know very little and require a considerable amount of work in the proper hands to get right. Most of these unwanted horses are better off in the tin as they end up neglected or unwanted again. Just go to a site like horsedeals and look at horses for sale under $1000. Most are labeled TB (Thoroughbred). Standardbreds run cheaper still. They are still a commodity being sold on by the so called horse lover who cannot bear to send it to the doggers and has outgrown it or cannot handle it.
 
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skifree

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Interesting article which raises many issues. We put our order in for hay last year when we picked up from our small local farmer. He did not bale this year but that was due to illness. It would not have been much anyway if he did. It cost us 3 times more this year to buy hay as everything had sold out locally. Hired a truck and drove to the bottom of Vic and that was cheaper than having a small load delivered. We are looking for another horse at the moment and they are cheap to buy with the excuse for sale as 'moving' very common. All the photos show horses on bare dirt. Giving a horse away is also giving it to someone who will sell it for dog food. They send their ladies to do the pickup and the person is duped into thinking it is going to a loving home. We are also looking to sell a horse but that is hard at the moment when nobody has feed. Spending $700/wk on feed for these animals is ridiculous enough without it going to $1200. Saving them from being dog food only to allow them to starve is cruel. I also know of some so called horse rescuers who run a good business from it. They can buy horses cheap at the sale yards and only have to outbid the doggers. Fatten them up when feed is plentiful, give them some basic work and on sell with the tag of rescued horse. They can make up to $1000 for a good horse but in hard times like now they cry poor and make you think they have been doing a charitable service for the horses.

Same thing will happen with the rescued feral horse. People already make money out of it because they get the horse for free. People up the road just bought one and I will be there today to check it out and likely it will end up at our place to get the necessary training to make it suitable. The racehorse industry is not good. Horses are only a commodity and thousands are bred and discarded once they prove to be useless to the trainer. I have two of them now. Both good horses for what I want, both rescue horses sold to ladies and both I got for nothing from them but they are not horses for people who know very little and require a considerable amount of work in the proper hands to get right. Most of these unwanted horses are better off in the tin as they end up neglected or unwanted again. Just go to a site like horsedeals and look at horses for sale under $1000. Most are labeled TB (Thoroughbred). Standardbreds run cheaper still. They are still a commodity being sold on by the so called horse lover who cannot bear to send it to the doggers and has outgrown it or cannot handle it.

My take away was the horse industry can not look after it's own old real workhorses (race horses are working animals that earn their keep) reinforcing the position that re-homing ferals is way beyond a pipe dream.
 

Ubiquitous Steve

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Impasse!

Children will out grow their wooden horses waiting for the “execution”of a sound management plan in regard to feral horses.
Perhaps KNP could erect a giant rocking horse on top of its tourist draw card!
 

Xplora

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My take away was the horse industry can not look after it's own old real workhorses (race horses are working animals that earn their keep) reinforcing the position that re-homing ferals is way beyond a pipe dream.
Most race horses do not get to be old workhorses. They are broken at 18mths and raced not long after. Australian TB racing is mostly about sprints and to do distance the horses need to mature. One horse I have had 3 starts and finished 3rd in one race. That was it for him as he was not good enough. They breed so many so they can reject a great many. Those who pay back in winnings get to lead a very good life and mares will go to stud. So the industry looks after the old workhorse but not the thousands of hopefuls. You are right though that there is no hope of finding homes for thousands of feral horses. The racing industry looks at horses only as a money making tool and some are not treated very well. They do however provide well for your pooch and without that you would be paying a great deal more for your can of chum.
 
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skifree

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Most race horses do not get to be old workhorses. They are broken at 18mths and raced not long after. Australian TB racing is mostly about sprints and to do distance the horses need to mature. One horse I have had 3 starts and finished 3rd in one race. That was it for him as he was not good enough. They breed so many so they can reject a great many. Those who pay back in winnings get to lead a very good life and mares will go to stud. So the industry looks after the old workhorse but not the thousands of hopefuls. You are right though that there is no hope of finding homes for thousands of feral horses. The racing industry looks at horses only as a money making tool and some are not treated very well. They do however provide well for your pooch and without that you would be paying a great deal more for your can of chum.
Exactly.
 

skifree

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You know the more I think about the delay in direct mass culling action caused by people who use avoidance of cruelty as part of the argument the more cruelty i see happening with starvation due to Winter coming on, less to no feed in surrounding farmland (and I imagine unwelcoming farmers), disease as a standard outcome of over population and no check being put on population growth is going to be much larger than direct action now.

The longer the delay in action the more cruelty there is likely to be.
 
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Xplora

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Ubiquitous Steve

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Mastacomys fuscus may have to migrate Sth if those NSW cluxes cannot get it together to act .
Perhaps Team Bears could put families up in a few wood shelters !
 

zapruda

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I met Steve (standing on the right of the first pic) in a meeting very recently about possibly having the track along Arsenic Ridge re-cut. He is a good bloke and I imagine he is doing and saying whatever he can to help the park above all the political nonsense that goes along with this issue. It must be tough work for NPWS staff involved.
 

skifree

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It's a sorry state when all scientists working for Kosci Parks were made redundant last year.
The universities are still doing research, but the info is now a lot harder to source
One can only assume there is no more science in Parks to do.
 

Ubiquitous Steve

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Well somebody better stump up to support the smaller animals Team Bears have shown above or their populations could be decimated as their habitats crumble !

Are we to summon superman to save the situation ......
 

Xplora

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https://www.theguardian.com/austral...onists-urge-nsw-to-reduce-horrific-collisions
I recall mentioning in one of my submission something regarding this very thing. The answer from the bleeding hearts is reduce the speed limit. I have noticed Vic Roads have put up new warning signs which includes deer. I am not sure how much notice people actually take of these signs but at least it is some sort of warning. When travelling after dark we drop our speed considerably. Less of a problem through the day but did chase two deer up the road coming back from town Monday afternoon. I have also seen plenty of horses grazing on the roadside around Kiandra and would also slow down through there at night. There are other native animals on the road also but not many have the potential to kill like a horse. I lost 4 friends in one car to a horse on the road at night.

Just wondering who will be named as second defendant when someone sues.

And finally a media outlet that does not use the term Brumby
https://www.canberratimes.com.au/st...horses-a-pest-amidst-snowy-road-safety-fears/
 

Ubiquitous Steve

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Those Canberra dudes better consider an upgrade on those little sedans....horse and deer proof to 80km/hr.

In tradional mat green a real favourite with KNP too!

Team Bears suggest you run with your lights on even in daylight!
And kids love them at school pick ups....

Nokian Tyres an option too!
 

nezumi

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Those Canberra dudes better consider an upgrade on those little sedans....horse and deer proof to 80km/hr.

In tradional mat green a real favourite with KNP too!

Team Bears suggest you run with your lights on even in daylight!
And kids love them at school pick ups....

Nokian Tyres an option too!

Just don't aim for the animals, native or pest - and especially don't be stupid enough to film yourself doing so.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05...-down-emus-sentenced-to-42-days-jail/11097056
 
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Ubiquitous Steve

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If you are ganna aim for them try something like this..
..
It will go well in Nth Canberra....

And no need to fit chains if going back country to Grey Mare Hut.

0E1B553E-7427-4C11-B1A4-93BFBEA72BB4.png
 
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