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Is Vail group financially secure?

Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by coolair, Jul 11, 2020.

  1. zac150

    zac150 A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    full numbers show a much uglier picture....

    https://www.evt.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Year-End-Results-Presentation-2020.pdf





    What is not evident is how they record the income I.e does the $20m include this years ticket sales in June? Or do they include the revenue once the service has been provided I.e if I buy tickets for August do they shift to revenue then?

    This will have a major impact on next years figures.

    either way $120m turn around is large.
     
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  2. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    Parcels like west jindabyne are the leftovers of the lake aquisitions. The old SMHEA was directed to negotiate sales rather than using compulsory aquisition. Some landholders would sell only what SMHEA wanted, others would only sell their entire properties, leaving all of the Hydro parcels which serve no operational function, like Jindabyne West.
     
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  3. BlueHue

    BlueHue One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Ahh thanks, that makes sense!
     
  4. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    There are all sorts of weird grandfather agreements as well. Hydro has to pay for all fence and track maintenance in perpetuity for one of the lakeside grazing properies.
     
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  5. rowdyflat

    rowdyflat One of Us Ski Pass: Gold Ski Pass: Silver

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    Is Copperhead still there ? Have the corners been fixed?
    It would have to be one of the worst machine built tracks .
    Better next time ?.
     
  6. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yes as part of my master plan they would turn Copperhead into a flow trail.
     
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  7. Ozgirl

    Ozgirl Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Mtn for Perisher, Park at Smigs, company transport to Ridge. I reckon Guth and Parachute etc would also be good. How many Mtn bikers spend money in Thredbo village?
     
  8. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    All of them?
    I’m a tightarse and I spend heaps there LOL

    But it’s worth noting that a heap of that is spent in Thredbo-owned retail (MTB shop, pie shop, pub, bistro, etc). Avalanche would be the (common and popular!) exemption.
     
  9. Ozgirl

    Ozgirl Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Hahaha!

    None of my mates spend money up there!
     
  10. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    Still buyin’ a lift pass...
    There’s a heap that would spend nothing but still grab the occasional sports drink or beer...

    Anyways, someone’s spending money as they make money.
     
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  11. zac150

    zac150 A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Considering Mountain biking is heavily dominated by middle aged people with money, I’d say a lot.

    Thredbo profits from mountain biking is up and can be seen in the above numbers, pre bush fire profits up $500k, the bush fire effected third quarter was down 11% but considering this is a large chunk of Jan lost and half of March that’s not a bad result and shows the return from biking is increasing.

    But you just look at Derby in Tassie to see the effect of mtn biking on an economy.
     
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  12. Ozgirl

    Ozgirl Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    I meant in the need for a "village" as was argued up thread. Im saying that not having a village shouldn't hold Perisher back.
     
  13. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    People like staying in a village (this makes money for Thredbo). Also, Perisher has half the vertical.
     
  14. Ozgirl

    Ozgirl Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    And I think Ridge would be a great area. And no need for the Village.

    Perisher copes in winter with less beds that Thredbo....

    But Vail really don't care about making money in Australia in Summer. The whole reason they brought the resorts is to get us to go OS.

    I have no interest in mountain biking - would prefer the spend the money on winter improvements and i will continue to go OS in the 'off' season thanks!
     
  15. zac150

    zac150 A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    that’s because there are a lot fewer ski resorts than mountain bike parks. Given the choice most people going to a destination want to stay in the destination (makes it easier for no cycling partners).

    Reality is Perisher would have been developed if the owners could have gotten approval’s.

    The other point worth noting is that if the resorts can make more money they can invest back in the resort. I’d prefer a resort that wants to generate greater revenue locally than simply shift us to a preferred overseas location they control.
     
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  16. Ozgirl

    Ozgirl Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Hmm interesting - i would prefer to be in Jindy than Thredbo in Summer if my partner was mtn biking.

    Im still not sure why we need this to be a Perisher vs thredbo debate?? Isn't there another thread for that?

    Im just saying that Vail's aussie revenue (or lack thereof in summer months) is unlikely to make them bankrupt.

    And was also saying that i think they would have a market for Mtn biking and that a village is not essential. just like its not in winter.

    Hello NZ!
     
  17. robbo mcs

    robbo mcs One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    With regards to MTB at Perisher.

    It involves the concept of businesses looking at adjacencies and maximising use of expensive capital infrastructure. Gives an opportunity for revenue growth, which companies are always looking at. This is business 101. Vail, and previous owners of Perisher will have looked at this in detail, many times. The fact that they haven’t done it means they think it is not viable. It’s not like the idea has never crossed the board room table.
     
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  18. Donzah

    Donzah Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Perisher.... Summer.... Shithouse.
     
  19. MarzNC

    MarzNC One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    For sure VR used the experience in Australia as the basis for what is planned for N. America. But the conclusion was to impose the same policies on every resort, including the small hills in the midwest and Mid-Atlantic that have very little in common with destination resorts in New England or between the Pacific and Denver.

    The info on the Epic webpage about how the VR reservation system will work was announced last week. It's very detailed. One feature that didn't exist in June when the Australian season was starting is the ability to cancel a reservation online up to midnight the night before. The slot automatically opens up for someone else who checks in early in the morning. Epic passholders aren't limited in the number of reservations for the current week all season long. They also get a month before Dec. 8 to lock in up to 7 days any time during the season, for example for a 1-week ski vacation that requires flying.

    Fair to say that there are people who bought an Epic pass after the reservation system announcement. The consistency that VR has built for their IT infrastructure and RFID pass system is going to pay off for 2020-21. In particular for those people who are willing to travel out of state or really want lift-served skiing. Meaning they haven't been buying BC gear or a pass to a local ski area with slow fixed lifts that date from 20+ years ago.
     
    #219 MarzNC, Sep 1, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2020
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  20. zac150

    zac150 A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    umm not sure it was being taken to a Thredbo v Perisher debate, people simply pointed out that Perisher, Falls and Hotham aren’t going to shift to year round resort.

    The initial debate started as Vail borrowed a lot of money after massive loses, they deferred a lot of loses by offering credits which means they Basically borrowed from customers. There was concerns on this years revenue given a lot of sales will involve credit from last year and sales will be down.

    KT are also taking a hit as Rydges is splashed on tv every time they discuss ground zero in Victoria. It seems from there financials they believe the pent up demand for outings and film release being held back will seriously help and will have a major impact on their income.

    but back to the summer debate I stay in both Jindabyne and Thredbo in Summer and the holidays are very different. Again NZ isn’t a great example as they don’t really have villages at any ski resort so the option isn’t to choose a village over one that doesn’t have one. Point is mountain bike parks in Australia are developing around villages which would make it harder for one to survive away from a village unless it has a massive draw card.
     
  21. zac150

    zac150 A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Looks like they learnt a lot, some very very good changes in that lot.
     
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  22. Budgiesmuggler

    Budgiesmuggler A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Not really. Their revenue is a factor of visitors. Plus Thredbo is probably one of their assets that has continued operating at near capacity
     
  23. zac150

    zac150 A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    sure but it’s still a $120m turn around!

    My concern is that their turn around is dependent on tourism, and movies. Fundamentally there appears to be two assumptions in the report:

    - that people will head back to theatres when they can start showing new release.
    - no brand damage on hotels

    I’ve no doubt there will be an element of return to normal when allowed I just think it will be fast. There also appears to be a modus operandi with the group that they don’t spend so QT sites get old and rebranded to rydges.

    Thredbo needs money spent and the $100m loss is what was set aside for upgrades there. I’m not so sure that they can keep going without the upgrades without damaging the brand.

    there is also a fight brewing as The financials report the fact they have asked for government incentives which they haven’t passed down. Lots of Thredbo property owners will get the shits fast and KT takes a 20%+ booking fee, that’s a lot of Revenue.
     
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  24. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Do you know this, or is it a convenient legend promulgated by Perisher? I once sat in on a meeting in which mountain biking was discussed with Perisher, NPWS and some other stakeholders. The people resisting mountain biking were Perisher and the commercial lessees.
     
  25. rowdyflat

    rowdyflat One of Us Ski Pass: Gold Ski Pass: Silver

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    Summer in Australia is partially limited by our beach and surf culture.
     
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  26. DPS Driver

    DPS Driver A Local

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    I know Thredbo are happy with the season from a financial perspective. It could have been so much worse. They did better than break even so that's a win in their books. I don't think we can look at the $100mil loss in isolation, it really must be seen as an extraordinary period. Plus you've also got the largest infrastructure spend in recent history included in the results with the installation of the gondola. So all things considered it's a decent result when you consider the bushfires and Covid.

    How will that translate into revenue for 2021 and infrastructure spend moving forward, who knows? One thing for sure, Thredbo will probably hold a more elevated position within the group considering how well they performed through the crisis and how less effected they were than other parts of the business. Perhaps that will loosen the purse strings. I'm sure they know they've got to upgrade and I've not heard anything to the contrary that they aren't progressing with their plans.
     
  27. zac150

    zac150 A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    My comment was less in relation to mtn biking, and more in relation to the previously muted development of the car park
     
  28. zac150

    zac150 A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    This is an interesting view and I guess I see it's merit,

    Agreed perhaps they will see the need to invest to insure the cashflow.
     
  29. BlueHue

    BlueHue One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    I hope they do invest relatively soon. I prefer thredbo but like perisher as well and my wife a perisher skier. Currently get 365 passes but last couple of years of winds limiting terrain options rapidly and my wifes distaste for lower mtn i dont think i can keep her on the thredbo bandwagon much longer if they dont put on the table a more robust/flexible lift system. What they are talking about/have done with gondola but with a couple of appropriate mid stations would do the trick. I'm quite keen for spring turns at perisher as well.
     
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  30. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Same applies. NPWS is relaxed and comfortable about that development. It doesn't suit Perisher to do it at the moment for some reason. "The park" and "the environment" have been convenient scapegoats for decades.
     
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  31. MarzNC

    MarzNC One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    I didn't realize until today that the VR COO over the Australian resorts has never been to Perisher. He only was put in that position last fall after leading W-B. Pete Sonntag planned to go to Australia but . . . . pandemic travel restrictions. Apparently he was an instructor at Thredbo for a year in 1992, but never visited Perisher.

    Today I listened to a podcast that was an hour long discussion arranged by Ski Area Management (SAM). Anyone who pays for a subscription to SAM can have access to Huddle podcasts. I got a subscription a year ago in order to get the book Ski Inc. 2020 by Chris Diamond before it was in bookstores.

    The Huddle discussion title was "Lessons from Down Under" and was recorded in the last week or so. Speakers in addition to Sonntag included the GMs for Thredbo, Cardrona and Treble Cone, and Mount Hutt, Coronet and The Remarkables. Seemed pretty clear that all were surprised at how well things have turned out on many levels, including financial.

    Obviously the information shared was high level. But still can be very useful for any American GMs and other managers who take advantage of the Huddles. The Thredbo GM was happy with their decision to only sell day tickets, with discounts for season passholders. The two NZ GMs made it very clear that working together to come up with plans for approval by the government agencies was very helpful. One aspect that Sonntag noted was the issues around getting started safely during early season when there is limited terrain and lifts available.

    VR has already put start dates for all their N. American resorts in writing, which is very unusual. Some dates are a bit later than usual. Presumably in order to give more time for snowmaking. Having all those dates decided seems to have had a calming effect on Epic passholders and skiers in general.
     
  32. zac150

    zac150 A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    approvals aren’t just development, I guess I include finance amongst other things in the “approvals” basket as well. Which goes back to the original comment, something is causing them to hold off spending the money.

    I know Robert Katz is on record as saying more beds was a high priority when Vail brought Perisher, he also noted improved customer experience (lifts). Katz has also commented on the “high level of difficulty” when trying to do something on government land.

    At the end of the day I can’t see NPWS really caring what is done as I feel the leases are really quasi national parks. I’d prefer to see the lease scraped and the park boundary moved with the resorts paying a per user $$ amount to NPWS.
     
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  33. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    So more like a Victorian AR set up? Excising from KMP?
     
  34. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    The something that is stopping them spending the money is their internal modelling. It is nothing external.
     
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  35. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yep. That has worked so well.
     
  36. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    I think there’s a wide range of opinions down here on that point.

    At times (Say with new lifts, dams and vegetation clearing) I’m sure the Ski lift operators have been frustrated that the lease areas are treated like pseudo NPs. While many Conservationists and non ski park users (inc. some Walking clubs, VNPA), would have preferred a more NP type of management.

    Best described as neither fish nor fowl?
     
  37. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Perhaps Perisher could spend some time modelling a better bus service? I assume that would compete directly with their SkiTube, meaning it’s unlikely to be attractive financially to visitors?

    Surely ever-expanding acres of bitumen below FV and longer queues of traffic into/out of Jindabyne aren't a good model - especially when the resorts are ‘supposed to be getting Greener’. Not dirtier?
     
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  38. Chaeron

    Chaeron Ski-Hike-Blade-Bike-Kayak Ski Pass: Gold

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    Buller and Falls run noticeably more buses than Perisher - but it’s obviously simpler to achieve when the client base is more obviously concentrated in fewer, more clearly delineated places.
     
  39. Jellybeans

    Jellybeans not woke enough Ski Pass: Gold

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    The problem is there is no real alternative except for Thredbo, that has the same problems.

    There's no need to increase capital investment unless there is an imperative to keep a customer base.

    It is obviously becoming busier, so the crowds will come investment in actual transport infrastructure or not. This is the part where a proactive council or State MP would be good. Instead one is chasing youths about Jindabyne and the other is imagining ski jumps.
     
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  40. Chaeron

    Chaeron Ski-Hike-Blade-Bike-Kayak Ski Pass: Gold

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    Honest John B could surely set up an Alpine Brumby Express....:whistle:
     
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  41. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    Per person NP access charges for taxis, point to point shuttle services, buses and mini-buses is what makes it unattractive to the customer and, therefore, to the company.
     
  42. Ozgirl

    Ozgirl Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    I'm sorry - where is a copy of Katz saying he wanted to increase beds in perisher?
     
  43. skiflat

    skiflat Old n' Crusty

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  44. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Fair enough, that's the current scenario but if ? NPWS wish to have improved sustainability outcomes, they may need to co-invest in the solution rather than just dictate. Otherwise they're creating a perverse outcome - encouraging driving/congestion/even pollution to some degree of the KNP!

    So NPWS could offer a discount pp for bus access, which therefore reduced the needs (or future needs) for increased car park construction. So delayed costs for infrastructure & better sustainability outcome - that's got to be worth a few $ pp? Especially at peak times.

    NSW/Snowy Tourism should talk to Southern Lakes Council and operators in NZ. Buses can be done. It's not rocket science. (even for Sloop John B) :rolleyes:
     
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  45. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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  46. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    yes
     
  47. zac150

    zac150 A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    it was reported in a number of papers including the Australian Financial Review, back in 2015.
     
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  48. Ozgirl

    Ozgirl Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    I read it that they would of course love to develop. But would not do anything to piss off the locals.

    So if we all got our pitch forks out and said no way - then they wouldn't.
     
    #248 Ozgirl, Sep 1, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2020
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  49. skiflat

    skiflat Old n' Crusty

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    Pay for a subscription then
     
  50. skiflat

    skiflat Old n' Crusty

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    sadly Rona will put back anything for years

    I expect my kids to be 18 before any decent developments at Perisher

    Shame as I'd love to take the family there but with no night-life and limited accomodation its not going to happen

    You couldn't pay me to stay in Jindy and drag the kids up and down the mountain daily