Kosciuszko Snowies Iconic Walk

Ubiquitous Steve

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Perhaps carbon fibre snow poles are being sourced!!!......a bit of money being flung around it seems....heated dunny seats at Rawsons Super Dunny Complex??Anti rust treatment for the metal walkway??Saunas for Seamans Novotel ??Bike racks for Mt Kosy ??
 

climberman

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Annoying that (AFAIK) none of the releases has included a map. Maybe they are still making it up.

AIUI agency proposals were sought and shortlisted, and then selected. It won’t have been surveyed or any of that stuff. A route will need to selected and found. I figure local folks would have an idea of what’s there and what might be involved. It’s a walking track, so nicely flexible around enviro issues / threatened species / etc and
 
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dawooduck

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Perhaps carbon fibre snow poles are being sourced!!!......a bit of money being flung around it seems....heated dunny seats at Rawsons Super Dunny Complex??Anti rust treatment for the metal walkway??Saunas for Seamans Novotel ??Bike racks for Mt Kosy ??

Heli skiing ......

Can I take my iconic dog on this iconic walk
 
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Telezacski

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Looking at Google earth their is a service trail that follows the Tube, half way up the hill so i'd guess this trail will be used, from there, there are a few natural features to get the rest of the way on to the tops which makes sense.
 

Ubiquitous Steve

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Bun fights and irrelevant rants have been and will be smoked.

Topic folks, topic.
Well said.....we are looking forward to details of this development....one can do a lot with 27 million......
Lots of speculation/an enthusiasm for this win/win for tourism and KNP?
 

Ubiquitous Steve

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27m for how many k's of walk/bike trail?
Just run with it.......
Ski free doesn't want you to be over critical in relation to this project....well it must be sound....KNP are embracing it.....photos and everything in the above post and all?
No ranting and critical questions please!
 

Telezacski

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27m for how many k's of walk/bike trail?

The $27m needs to cover

Upgrading the trail from dead horse to Thredbo (5km), and finishing the trail from Crackenback to the Trout Farm (I believe a bit of this has been done and was told 6km remains unfinished).

Someone mentioned a section of the current lakes walk needs upgrading and this was mentioned in one brief (2km?), in one of the brief's it refers to connecting Guthega to the lakes walk (4km) & obviously the section between porcupine rocks and Crackenback (2km).

I may be being generous on some of the km's.
 
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Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
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How they make the bit from Guthega to Perisher worth a day and interesting interests me. Maybe a loop around the north of Blue Cow and Smiggins then across the road at Pipers Creek. There's some nice country there.
 
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Ubiquitous Steve

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Just a small question.....this 27million ....well where is it coming from....its being allocated from which area or areas?

And the return on this infrastructure upgrade is based on sound statistics for usage and potential growth of usage?and those figures are readily available for scrutiny atm.
Sorry ...that we are asking too many questions !
 

Ralf_Plow

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The $27m needs to cover

Upgrading the trail from dead horse to Thredbo (5km), and finishing the trail from Crackenback to the Trout Farm (I believe a bit of this has been done and was told 6km remains unfinished).

Someone mentioned a section of the current lakes walk needs upgrading and this was mentioned in one brief (2km?), in one of the brief's it refers to connecting Guthega to the lakes walk (4km) & obviously the section between porcupine rocks and Crackenback (2km).

I may be being generous on some of the km's.

So all up about 20km. Over 1million/km.

NSW Govt continues to break infrastructure records!
 

Telezacski

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How they make the bit from Guthega to Perisher worth a day and interesting interests me. Maybe a loop around the north of Blue Cow and Smiggins then across the road at Pipers Creek. There's some nice country there.

Actually it was pretty interesting hiking through the ski field, but it is a short day which was nice after the day before from Thredbo to Guthega which is a longish day 24km+. to be honest you could easily do 4 days, Crackenback to Charlotte's, Charlotte's to Thredbo, Thredbo to Guthega and Guthega to Crackenback.

I'd say the section through Perisher would be the last thing they do as trails already exist in the area so I would suggest they will build the trails that need building and fix the trail in areas that need fixing i.e I believe the section near lee will need doing to ensure the protection of some special species of grass which I am sure @Telemark Phat can provide detail on.
 

Ubiquitous Steve

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That last paragraph may trouble some.....I mean not the Bears ....we are used to this management talk.
So we have the concept ...

now to make it compatible in the National Park setting.....sounds reasonable don't you think?
 

Telemark Phat

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Just a small question.....this 27million ....well where is it coming from....its being allocated from which area or areas?

And the return on this infrastructure upgrade is based on sound statistics for usage and potential growth of usage?and those figures are readily available for scrutiny atm.
Sorry ...that we are asking too many questions !
Pork Barrelling by the Deputy Premier in the NSW bellweather seat.
 

Telemark Phat

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Actually it was pretty interesting hiking through the ski field, but it is a short day which was nice after the day before from Thredbo to Guthega which is a longish day 24km+. to be honest you could easily do 4 days, Crackenback to Charlotte's, Charlotte's to Thredbo, Thredbo to Guthega and Guthega to Crackenback.

I'd say the section through Perisher would be the last thing they do as trails already exist in the area so I would suggest they will build the trails that need building and fix the trail in areas that need fixing i.e I believe the section near lee will need doing to ensure the protection of some special species of grass which I am sure @Telemark Phat can provide detail on.
Windswept Feldmark Critically Endangered Ecological Community
 

zapruda

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I imagine the Guthega section will possibly include an upgrade of the track to Mt Twynam and a new track being formed down the saddle, over pounds creek flats and connecting to the footpad and then the Illawong track?

Or maybe instead they will extend the Illawong track past the hut and then up Spencer’s creek?

Personally I think It would be nice to leave the area north and east of Twynam alone. We will be running out of places above 2000m to build tracks soon...
 

Telezacski

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I imagine the Guthega section will possibly include an upgrade of the track to Mt Twynam and a new track being formed down the saddle, over pounds creek flats and connecting to the footpad and then the Illawong track?

Or maybe instead they will extend the Illawong track past the hut and then up Spencer’s creek?

Personally I think It would be nice to leave the area north and east of Twynam alone. We will be running out of places above 2000m to build tracks soon...

The first would be the easier option; when we did the hike we crossed Blue lake at the creek rather than go over Tynham as we wanted the Pic's but the walking below there wasn't much fun. I think to make it a viable walk they will need to minimise the distance between Thredbo and Guthega
 

telecrag

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The 27m is over 5 years. My understanding was that the Dirt Art contract was from Crackenback to Gaden, and $2m.
 
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Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
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The first would be the easier option; when we did the hike we crossed Blue lake at the creek rather than go over Tynham as we wanted the Pic's but the walking below there wasn't much fun. I think to make it a viable walk they will need to minimise the distance between Thredbo and Guthega
Thredbo to Charlottes via the Kossie Summit. Charlottes to Guthega via Blue Lake with a spur off to Albina. Then my already suggested loop around the back of Smiggins to Perisher. It makes for a series of 15 - 20 km days, which is doable for fit people with light packs. The only new tracks are whatever route you choose from the Main Range track down to Illawong and on to Guthega, and whatever route you choose for the bit from the Link Rd to the existing service track that heads out of Pipers Creek where it leaves the Perisher road and (if they choose to go that way) something across Prussian Plain.
 

Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
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I also don't understand why they want to do the engineering to build a track down to Lake Crackenback (unless there is a tie in with the Lake Crackenback Resort). They could close the loop to Thredbo by following the pole line from Perisher to Charlottes and heading across to the top of Thredbo via a new route from Trapyard Creek or picking up the old pole line from where the Summit Rd crosses the Snowy River to the top of Thredbo.
 

Telezacski

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I also don't understand why they want to do the engineering to build a track down to Lake Crackenback (unless there is a tie in with the Lake Crackenback Resort). They could close the loop to Thredbo by following the pole line from Perisher to Charlottes and heading across to the top of Thredbo via a new route from Trapyard Creek or picking up the old pole line from where the Summit Rd crosses the Snowy River to the top of Thredbo.

I tend to agree on this, their is a trail up Stillwell and from their a natural ridge that takes you to Merrits and trails from their to get you to the village.

But a trail up from Crackenback would be an iconic day walk as well.

I still like the full loop so people get to see everything including Albina, Watson's crags etc
 

Ralf_Plow

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Project cost > construction cost.

Sure, but the whole "we must spend $1m on BS to spend $1m on construction" is a trademark off this government.

11km of rail line between glenfield and leppington cost $2.1 billion excluding land! They are about as lean as Clive Palmer.

Don't get me wrong. I love the fact that this is being done, and the fact that there's $27m around to do it, but a little more bang for buck would be really nice. Especially given the excuses rolled out for not dealing with the Mtb issue in sydneys Nat parks. Where a few mill would go a loooong way.
 

Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
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I still like the full loop so people get to see everything including Albina, Watson's crags etc
Did you read this post?

Thredbo to Charlottes via the Kossie Summit. Charlottes to Guthega via Blue Lake with a spur off to Albina. Then my already suggested loop around the back of Smiggins to Perisher. It makes for a series of 15 - 20 km days, which is doable for fit people with light packs. The only new tracks are whatever route you choose from the Main Range track down to Illawong and on to Guthega, and whatever route you choose for the bit from the Link Rd to the existing service track that heads out of Pipers Creek where it leaves the Perisher road and (if they choose to go that way) something across Prussian Plain.
 

climberman

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Sure, but the whole "we must spend $1m on BS to spend $1m on construction" is a trademark off this government.

11km of rail line between glenfield and leppington cost $2.1 billion excluding land! They are about as lean as Clive Palmer.

Don't get me wrong. I love the fact that this is being done, and the fact that there's $27m around to do it, but a little more bang for buck would be really nice. Especially given the excuses rolled out for not dealing with the Mtb issue in sydneys Nat parks. Where a few mill would go a loooong way.

Everyone thinks that it’s overpriced and over done in the pre planning and preconstruction.
No one seems to effing well bid in a manner that makes them any cheaper.

If you think there’s a fucktonne of waste, have a go and bid. I’m sure NPWS will be keen for your input as to how you will deliver them more for less.

Everyone also thinks anything that isn’t actual pouring of concrete is some wast of time and money.... even though it’s how a project gets there in the first place and helps it do little things like comply with the law, etc. Many agencies these days also apply staff wages to these capital projects. Limited duration positions tied to capital programs. And charged to them.

Development costs for road for example have been reasonably constant at between 3-6% of project costs depending on complexity, for ~20 years. We just now have technical capability to do bigger construction works and so development costs more.

Community also has dual expectations that things would be cheap, but planned, and have oversight and governance (which costs time and money).
 

Telezacski

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Did you read this post?

Sorry I missed the "spur off to Albina" but this isn't a short spur, to truly see Albina you need to look down the valley your adding around 5km+ each way maybe more so I just don't see the benefit, as you will end up with more or less the same distance.

I think they need to make it as much a round loop with no back tracking for this to work well.
 

Legs Akimbo

Grumblebum
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Sorry I missed the "spur off to Albina" but this isn't a short spur, to truly see Albina you need to look down the valley your adding around 5km+ each way maybe more so I just don't see the benefit, as you will end up with more or less the same distance.

I think they need to make it as much a round loop with no back tracking for this to work well.
That cuts Charlottes out of the loop and makes for an unacceptably long day from Thredbo to Guthega.
 

Ralf_Plow

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Everyone thinks that it’s overpriced and over done in the pre planning and preconstruction.
No one seems to ****ing well bid in a manner that makes them any cheaper.

If you think there’s a ****tonne of waste, have a go and bid. I’m sure NPWS will be keen for your input as to how you will deliver them more for less.

Everyone also thinks anything that isn’t actual pouring of concrete is some wast of time and money.... even though it’s how a project gets there in the first place and helps it do little things like comply with the law, etc. Many agencies these days also apply staff wages to these capital projects. Limited duration positions tied to capital programs. And charged to them.

Development costs for road for example have been reasonably constant at between 3-6% of project costs depending on complexity, for ~20 years. We just now have technical capability to do bigger construction works and so development costs more.

Community also has dual expectations that things would be cheap, but planned, and have oversight and governance (which costs time and money).

30km of trail in Derby cost $3.1m to construct. Maybe this has correlation here, maybe it doesn't, but the trails there are certainly of a very high standard. I very much doubt the bid values are what is making the project cost $27m, so me bidding will not help much.

Development costs of 3-6% would be brilliant on this project. I suspect they are far more here.

All I am saying is it would be nice to see a few more km for our buck. Do you think our state gov has a good track record of delivering value in infrastructure? I know how much the construction costs were for SWRL, I don't think what taxpayers parted with represents great value.

NPWS most certainly do not give a shit about my input, I know, because they have said so ;)
 
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climberman

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30km of trail in Derby cost $3.1m to construct. Maybe this has correlation here, maybe it doesn't, but the trails there are certainly of a very high standard. I very much doubt the bid values are what is making the project cost $27m, so me bidding will not help much.

Development costs of 3-6% would be brilliant on this project. I suspect they are far more here.

All I am saying is it would be nice to see a few more km for our buck. Do you think our state gov has a good track record of delivering value in infrastructure? I know how much the construction costs were for SWRL, I don't think what taxpayers parted with represents great value.

NPWS most certainly do not give a shit about my input, I know, because they have said so ;)
Derby has the distinct advantage on not being in a national park.

Re s the state and infrastructure, yes I think the vast bulk of it is delevired for pretty reasonable value. NSW undoubtably has higher specs for the stuff I know about, which generally give better outcomes but comes at a higher cost.

Yeah, I’d love to see some more k’s too. I have think the baiscally hand built nature of the high alpine tracks adds a fucktonne. Hopefully it adds to the customer enjoyment and longevity too (fingers crossed!)
 

Ubiquitous Steve

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No longer is it the Snowy Mts.....it's the Epic Mts.....a refreshing change of name could do much for promotional activities....
 

Telezacski

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That cuts Charlottes out of the loop and makes for an unacceptably long day from Thredbo to Guthega.

No it doesn’t cut Charlottes out Perisher (or crackenback) to Charlottes, charlottes to Thredbo via kangaroo ridge, Thredbo to Guthega and Guthega to start.

As I say we did this three years ago, lots of fun.
 

Chaeron

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Wonder what it would cost in 2018 to replicate the Thredbo-Kosi walkway - about 5.5km of steel walkway:

Consider what’s involved- project planning & project management, surveying, budgeting, quality control, impact assessments, environmental offsets, physical foundations, implementation planning, permits, design, materials, labour, vegetation clearing, transport, OH&S, insurance, Legal...

Once you start quantifying what’s involved and then start costing it, then you can see that it would add up....
 
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Ralf_Plow

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Derby has the distinct advantage on not being in a national park.

Re s the state and infrastructure, yes I think the vast bulk of it is delevired for pretty reasonable value. NSW undoubtably has higher specs for the stuff I know about, which generally give better outcomes but comes at a higher cost.

Yeah, I’d love to see some more k’s too. I have think the baiscally hand built nature of the high alpine tracks adds a ****tonne. Hopefully it adds to the customer enjoyment and longevity too (fingers crossed!)

This exchange really needs beer.
 
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Ubiquitous Steve

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Wonder what it would cost in 2018 to replicate the Thredbo-Kosi walkway - about 5.5km of steel walkway:

Consider what’s involved- project planning & project management, surveying, budgeting, quality control, impact assessments, environmental offsets, physical foundations, implementation planning, permits, design, materials, labour, vegetation clearing, transport, OH&S, insurance, Legal...

Once you start quantifying what’s involved and then start costing it, then you can see that it would add up....
Probably take at least ten ;)years of planning before folk came to do anything on the ground!! Of coarse a Chinese :thumbs:builder would probably knock it off in three days once work actually started....LOL
 
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