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logging at Glen Wills/ Mt Wills

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by Cam Walker, Apr 4, 2010.

  1. Go Native

    Go Native One of Us

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    No only you right wing nutters into conspiracy theories and such have a great distrust of bureaucracies. If you want better data look it up yourself. I get sick and tired of having to try and educate some of the intellectual deadwood found on these forums.
     
    #101 Go Native, Apr 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 25, 2013
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  2. legend

    legend One of Us

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    Well said!!
     
  3. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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  4. rootroot

    rootroot First Runs

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    I question your viewpoint and ask you to justify your assumptions which means i am a right wing nut - how very accepting and open to different ideas you are, fascist
     
    #104 rootroot, Apr 23, 2010
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  5. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    So the timber industry does not need to find very much land at all to establish it's own forests on?

    Given we import timber and we have more than enough land to grow our own timber and demand for timber may rise in the future (unsure about this latter point but suspect strongly that demand must rise with population growth and reduction in use of oil based products) and at some point the finite resource in timber from other countries will dry up the need to grow more of to all our own timber should become greater.

    Or do we increase imports of timber and timber based products at let people overseas deal with their own issues with timber getting?

    Certainly the grow our own strategy should increase the number of jobs in Australia.

    But at the end of the day other countries clearly do also not charge enough for their timber.
     
    #105 skifree, Apr 23, 2010
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  6. rootroot

    rootroot First Runs

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    Facts:

    Victoria has 3.4 million hectares of State Forest;

    Conservation and environmental initiatives account for 79% of Victorian public land use;

    During 2006/07 VicForests harvested 0.16% of Victoria's State Forests, equivalent to 0.08% of Victoria's forested land;

    Only 13,916 ha of hardwood plantation are managed for sawlog production. The remaining 161,000 are managed on short rotations for fibre production;

    Australia's trade deficit in forest products is currently $2.02 billion - thats a hell of a lot of imported rainforest!!

    The proposed coupes in question are all composed of E. delegatensis (alpine ash) which originates from the 1920s, 1930s, or 1940s. IT IS NOT OLD GROWTH STUPID.
     
  7. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Never said it was.
     
  8. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    RS I was more referencing how much of the Australian landscape has adapted to 40k years of anthropogenic disturbance and now requires anthropogenic disturbance to maintain much of the landscape. To just leave it alone is a management decision to allow the landscape to degrade (presuming you want a pre white Australia landscape), just look at most wilderness area's (code for not managed) in Australia, full of weeds and ferals.

    The New Zealand Landscape however has a very different history and a very different relationship to anthropogenic disturbance.
     
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  9. The Bush Patrol

    The Bush Patrol Addicted

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    There is always two sides to every argument. I have mates in the logging industry & they have mouths to feed & a job to do because K Rudd needs them to work too. Those that think that they can clean the forest of fire effected lumber only are living in dream land, the lads are not going to just walk past the crimson folage of an australian red ceder in autumn at 3-5K per baulk to pick up scraps off the ground, they look for lumber in their gazetted areas that puts the companies they work for in a sustained posititon to provide for their families & future jobs for their siblings.
    The core argument in this thread is the logging in alpine areas, not sub alpine, or plantation which seems to be where some have steered it. Alpine lumber has close growth rings for one reason, because it grows real slow. They dont re-plant these areas because they won't be able to logg the regrowth in their grandchildrens life time. The dead wooding of hardwood forests is not economically viable because of access & only really works in plantation regrowth where cable (flying fox) extraction of strip felled lumber due to space between trees that allows it. The forestry have been looking forever for a solution but none found to date.
     
  10. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Thanks TBP, some sensible answers to my queries. Food for thought there.
     
  11. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    I am a human and part of the "natural-environment" have i missed something here or what.Leaving something alone willnot necessarily be in the best interests of the the forest ecosystem.May be we have been to good at suppression of wild fire and now lots of forest fuel(biomass): i like that word!climatic change meaning that likely hood of bad fire conditions will continue so we need to manage this Hot Fire situation and to moderate it or slow it down so that it not fry the b/j out of our forests.Intervention by humans is good
     
  12. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    not evil.Natural is human too.We are animals of the ecosystem too.There are feral plants diseases blackberries goats,deer rabbits they aint ganna sort this problem out themselves for the benefit of other members of the ecosystem.Worst problem is those fixated by what is natural or unnatural.
     
  13. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Thread bump. Doing some research and my partner came across this thread and it is interesting in that there is a new thread regarding the survey 'Future of our Forests'. The old thread took a few left turns from the original topic but 9 years on and the water supply for Glen Wills and Glen Valley is still threatened. There are not too many coupe left in the area to be logged and the one on Glen Wills creek is still listed. For almost 20 years the residents of this area have tried in vain to have this one logging coupe removed from the list. It would not amount to a shut down of logging or the loss of jobs but this creek has been the water supply for the town for over 100 years. A point lost on many people who have posted here. What effect will logging have. Firstly, when it rains the creek will fill with mud until the area gets some dirt holding vegetation. Secondly, when the new growth trees get to 12 years of age, they will suck the water from the ground which normally would end up in the creek, leaving it dry. This creek saved the town during the 2003 fires and Vic Forests plan is to stop its flow. Promises from politicians have done nothing to change the situation. @Cam Walker was looking to have two coupes removed. Just one on Glen Wills Creek would be enough. The local ranger has asked if he can take me to a number of logging coupes in the Mt. Wills area this week, to show me how English Broom is being spread. The mess left behind when the contractors finish is a disgrace and DELWP do very little to police it. We would expect the same thing to happen if this one coupe is logged.

    Its bad enough we have to fight a mining company who wants to set up a cyanide treatment plant on the creek and then put up with the threat of no creek water at all if Vic Forests get their way.

    Don't get distracted. This is about water supply and not logging. But who cares? It is not Melbourne. I think the survey has ended but it is still good for you to understand the issues.
     
  14. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yes.
    A while ago The Age ran a piece on the water value of forests around Melbourne and it was way more than the wood value.
     
  15. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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  16. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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  17. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yep.
    VicForests hasn't met regrowth targets, has logged coupes outside of permitted areas, hasn't checked planned coupes for threatened species and uses unlicensed logging contractors.
    It's a bunch of incompetent cowboys behaving unlawfully.
     
  18. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Do you have a corruption something or other in Vicco?
     
  19. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    while i'd be happy to see logging of non plantation forests ended, it looks like the budget office may have over simplified things. The article already said that the impact on indirect jobs and communities wasn't properly considered. Also I did not see any reference to ongoing management of the forests. tracks and facilities. maybe I just skimmed too fast. you can't just walk away from bushland.
     
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  20. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Something limp.
     
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  21. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Forest management is up to DELWP and Parks Vic.
    If externalities are part of the picture then all sorts of stuff needs to be accounted for, including water impacts, carbon abatement, habitat loss and so on.
    The article didn't link to the assessment. Wonder if it's publicly available.
     
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  22. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Now you’ve made it complicated.

    To effect change keep it simple, to avoid change make it complex.

    Make your choice.
     
  23. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Reading the Deloitte report that was mentioned...
    It attempts to assess costs and benefits of sticking with what we've got (or had before 2017) and no native timber harvesting - which is an absurd comparison as there are different ways of doing silviculture.
    It does try to assess carbon, water impacts etc, recognising that slight changes in model assumptions produce significant differences in outcomes.
    Here's what it says about water:
    a repeat of the 1939 bushfires
    would see a decrease of 15% of the inflow to
    the Thomson Dam over the 50 years following a
    bushfire of that magnitude.
    • Climate change impacts on water yield are also
    large, with a 1% decline in long-term average
    rainfall resulting in a decrease of water yield by
    2-3% across all catchments.

    That was prescient.

    The impact on state GDP of no harvesting would be tiny.
    But we know the decision is political, not economic or environmental.
     
  24. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I just don't like the way that land is effectively abandoned. making something part of a national park without increasing resources is a pile of :crap:.
    if state forest management is DEWLP and that would not change, then I withdraw the second part of my comment.
     
  25. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Agreed. Reference my many posts on the topic of Parks being funded to maintain the gate and that’s about it compared to demands and expectations.

    But the land has been fine for a million years left to itself. Sure it’s never gunna be the same thanks to ferral plants & animals but we clearly aren’t interested in doing anything about them logging or no logging.
     
  26. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    It's not yet clear to me what if anything Vic Forests pays the public for the resource and whether that reflects replacement value (leaving aside the impossibility of just 'replanting' an ecosystem). Wouldn't surprise me if it paid nothing and so the public cost of life support for 500 direct jobs is huge.
    Have you ever seen one of their clear-felled ash coupes? It's a moonscape.
    If it's going to be a Deloitte choice between that and leaving a forest to grow, I'll take the latter. But that isn't the only choice, and shouldn't be given that something like 70% of the state's warm temperate forests just burned.
    A coherent timber industry policy would have had the state driving plantation timber years ago.
     
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  27. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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  28. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Rather than pro-loggers claim they only log 0.16% of the 3.6 million ha of Vic SF p.a.

    I would like to see/read:

    of Victoria’s commercially loggable SF (=A)
    (=B) X ha / Y % were logged in the last year; 5 yrs; 10 yrs; ever; etc...

    (=B1, B2) I’d like similar for the loggable burnt and unburnt subtotals (say since 03/04 alpine fires):

    (=C1; C2) Also like silmilar for unlogged (but loggable) by burnt and unburnt (“ “) it should be the loggable (A) total - logged (B sum all years) but we know stats aren’t always so easy to obtain.
    The point being, a bit like commercial fishers, logging activates stress the ‘small impact/area’ over a huge SF system over one year, but miss a few key points;

    1) the vast majority of this ‘forest’ will never be logged - it’s worthless, not economic - a lot of its coastal scrub, tea tree, mallee, wattle & similar...so the denominator is rather irrelevant and somewhat misleading (hi to ScoMo if you’re reading this!)

    2) with each year of logging and increasingly fire season, the available unlogged & unburnt loggable SF rapidly diminishes - hence the desire by loggers to seek access to burnt NP trees, previously protected water catchments and high-conservation forests, etc.. and hence the increased fights over what’s left.

    These two stat groups (and others like say Leadbeater possum areas) should be accurately assessed and reported to the public by an independent authority so that both ‘sides’ don’t cry foul.

    But it’s pointless claiming only 0.00001% of the Great Sandy Desert is logged each year (or whatever) - most can’t and never will be even if you gave the land away for free!

    But I’m not sure any colour of Government (certainly not Vicforests) want the real stats revealed.

    But it’s clear the native forest industry needs to brace itself for increasingly reduced volumes of timber in Vic and reduced jobs. There’s just not the timber anymore.

    Now the local car manufacturing industry was supported to transition jobs to other areas. The only responsible position is to do the same (but better) for forest jobs.

    The funny thing is that certain groups look at their feet and stay silent when local car manufacturing jobs are mentioned yet scream bloody murder at lefty greeny groups when it comes to the forest industry.

    There is a model for this - however hard - I believe we all need to be grown up about it. Start Planning now! Or better 20 years ago!

    Rant over!

    Save our water catchments too while I’m at it!
     
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  29. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    That's a good rant :)

    VicForests couldn't or wouldn't supply Deloitte with numbers on regeneration.

    This is an obligation set for these people that they're failing to meet. A private company in the same boat could be charged with trading while insolvent.
     
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  30. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Know just imagine if the money ‘lost’ to prop up native timber logging (& chipping!) was used to create plantation forests and alternative fibres - try to Mel how many jobs ($) could be extracted in the future?

    But being Australia we generally prefer to make a quick dirty buck from digging the ground to long-term but more sustainable industries, involving more complicated process and technology but more local jobs and value add.

    Oz? The (generally) ‘lazy, dumb’ country in many ways & lead mostly by dumb & divisive pollies, with a 3 year attention span!
     
  31. Wally

    Wally One of Us Ski Pass: Gold Ski Pass: Silver

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    Logging ain't all that bad at Glen Wills... how good is the Knocker Tracker??! :out:
     
  32. Chaeron

    Chaeron A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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  33. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    More evidence that in our conditions ice is more of a risk than avalanche.
     
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  34. Chaeron

    Chaeron A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    Beyond all doubt.
     
  35. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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  36. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    It’s logical Zig but so many can’t or don’t want to understand this cause & effect.

    It’s not exactly a good look for the logging industry?
     
  37. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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  38. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    This is a good decision but it’s taken far too long to achieve. Decades really.

    Now known as ’illegal logging practices’ has been a running joke in the industry. Vicforests generally escapes with either a wrist slap or a not guilty.

    Other bad stuff still happens like logging within (50m?) of a stream bed and logging rainforest because of a small % of non RF species being present.

    I feel sorry for people employed in these industries (they’re being dudded by deluded landlords) but for our Badly burnt and raped forests and fauna, the end of native timber forest harvesting cannot come quickly enough. No amount of wealth can revive an extinct echosystem.

    I’m so sick of the waste and the inaction in this space it disgusts me! And for what $20m In a ‘good year’.
    That’s barely the sales of a McDonalds store.

    It’s time to pay our loggers to plant and care for forests - pay them well too - it will be recouped in spades in future generations.

    over & out!
     
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  39. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Well said.
     
  40. Xplora

    Xplora One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Just now and for the entire COVID lockdown there has been a team of people (mostly French backpackers who could not escape) who have been collecting seed in the coupes around Mt. Wills. This seed will be planted out. Initially they were camped up there but as the weather changed they have moved to quarters at the bottom of the mountain.
     
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  41. TheFake

    TheFake One of Us

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  42. Wally

    Wally One of Us Ski Pass: Gold Ski Pass: Silver

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    It's a start. But what about the gold mine at Glen Wills with all the arsenic just seeping into the the creeks and the Mitta, and dodgy operations going on?
     
  43. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Dunno, thats probably a different part of DELWP. Just got to tackle one issue at a time, sometimes?

    Especially the big issues. Logging is a huge factor as we all know. So is bushfire recovery and all the fau al reco too. It’s so bloody big, full of destruction and far too little money allocated to do it all!
     
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  44. chriscross

    chriscross One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    $$$ allocated to Grocon.
     
  45. Seth

    Seth Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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  46. snowgum

    snowgum One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    I thought they’d given up. Meeting the FSC is so not in the operating model of VicForests.

    To think they claim to be the victim in this charade? Geez Louise! :rolleyes:
     
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  47. Seth

    Seth Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    They knew this move from Bunnings was coming then. I’m pretty sure Bunnings gave them a deadline.
     
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  48. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    No laughing matter this debate on forest harvesting......the intense and widespread fire history is not helping logging issues.Age distribution and species composition are radically changing.......
     

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