Logging in the VIC Alpine national park

hi all

I've been looking into some logging thats planned and underway on the east side of the Dargo High Plains.

Story here >
https://themountainjournal.wordpres...lains-subjected-to-intensive-salvage-logging/

Turns out VicForests wants to put an access road from the DHP road to be able to cut a series of coupes in the Dargo catchment. This is within the Alpine NP (which is allowable if the minister approves it). However, they are proposing it as a 72 ha 'linear' coupe, effectively allowing logging within a national park.

I was wondering if anyone had any recent photos or info from the area where the road is planned? Its in the Long Spur area, SW of Mayford.

Thanks.
 

Xplora

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Might be a tough fight, VicForests are a law unto themselves.
They have come up against Louise Crisp. She is related to Omeo (pioneer) stock and a great spokesperson for the environment. She has been active against the Stockman Project which is polluting the Tambo river and many other local matters. Great success also. VicForests have less than 10 years left and are set about raping as much as they can before they die. There has been some successful action against them recently. The Treasure's still maintain Alpine grazing leases but in state forest. All the fuss a few years back about an Alpine grazing trial in the Wongangatta (not Alpine) and all the time the Treasure's were quietly going about their business. The trial could have been done on their leases but others wanted to get their names in the media.

I have had sit down meetings with VicForests about logging sensitive areas. I think they only respond to force. Not suggesting violence in any way. Pressure is probably a better way to describe it. Louise Crisp knows how to do this.
 

skifree

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They have come up against Louise Crisp. She is related to Omeo (pioneer) stock and a great spokesperson for the environment. She has been active against the Stockman Project which is polluting the Tambo river and many other local matters. Great success also. VicForests have less than 10 years left and are set about raping as much as they can before they die. There has been some successful action against them recently. The Treasure's still maintain Alpine grazing leases but in state forest. All the fuss a few years back about an Alpine grazing trial in the Wongangatta (not Alpine) and all the time the Treasure's were quietly going about their business. The trial could have been done on their leases but others wanted to get their names in the media.

I have had sit down meetings with VicForests about logging sensitive areas. I think they only respond to force. Not suggesting violence in any way. Pressure is probably a better way to describe it. Louise Crisp knows how to do this.

VicForests track record suggests very strongly they think they are above Regulations and the Law. So I agree asking nicely not to log these beautiful, remnant forests will be pissing into a very stiff breeze.
 

Fancy_Pants

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How might someone get involved? I live in Harrietville and have regularly got the heeby jeebies from what I have read about VicForests over the last few years. The forests of the high country have copped enough over recent times - the damage is everywhere.
 

Xplora

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How might someone get involved? I live in Harrietville and have regularly got the heeby jeebies from what I have read about VicForests over the last few years. The forests of the high country have copped enough over recent times - the damage is everywhere.
Not knowing the level of involvement you want I would say you could get in touch with the Gippsland Environment Group. @Cam Walker is onto it already https://www.facebook.com/groups/275...7BkIJjelM-FfksqAcGy0TfY7bscVAsY&ref=nf_target

and from this link you can pick up the GEG Facebook page. I have Louise's details but prefer not to pass them on.
 
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How might someone get involved? I live in Harrietville and have regularly got the heeby jeebies from what I have read about VicForests over the last few years. The forests of the high country have copped enough over recent times - the damage is everywhere.

Apologies for delay in responding: the good news is that the pressure has forced VicForests to back off: they now say that they won't cut the road. However, the road is still marked as 'approved' on VicForests maps so it is still a possibility.

If you email the env ministers office saying you don't want to see a road in the Alpine national park, in particular the 70ha linear logging coupe (535-501-0003) proposed along Kings Spur track, that will really help.

Her email is: lily.d'ambrosio@minstaff.vic.gov.au

Background info here > https://themountainjournal.wordpres...lains-subjected-to-intensive-salvage-logging/

Thanks.
 
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Chaeron

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Apologies for delay in responding: the good news is that the pressure has forced VicForests to back off: they now say that they won't cut the road. However, the road is still marked as 'approved' on VicForests maps so it is still a possibility.

If you email the env ministers office saying you don't want to see a road in the Alpine national park, in particular the 70ha linear logging coupe (535-501-0003) proposed along Kings Spur track, that will really help.

Her email is: lily.d'ambrosio@minstaff.vic.gov.au

Background info here > https://themountainjournal.wordpres...lains-subjected-to-intensive-salvage-logging/

Thanks.
Will do. Thx @Cam Walker

Was up past Baw Baw the other day - Jeez, they’ve recently piled in and really ripped through a lot of acreage....
 

Chaeron

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Where about? Baw Baw itself? Or up in the Thomsom somewhere?

Thomson. From about 15 km towards Walhalla past Baw Baw - adjacent to some of the fire recovery logging areas.

Also on the way towards Noojee from the Bunjip State Park side along the ridge lines approaching 5 Acre Rock. They’ve taken a massive chunk there in the last 5 years, beyond just the fire recovery logging.
 
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snowgum

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Thomson. From about 15 km towards Walhalla past Baw Baw - adjacent to some of the fire recovery logging areas.

Also on the way towards Noojee from the Bunjip State Park side along the ridge lines approaching 5 Acre Rock. They’ve taken a massive chunk there in the last 5 years, beyond just the fire recovery logging.


Hearing all this activity, it’s hard to believe native forest logging will just magically stop in 9 years.

An ‘addiction’ doesn’t just stop! Where’s the signature? And even if one exists - as per alpine grazing, anything signed can be counter-signed!
 

Xplora

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Apologies for delay in responding: the good news is that the pressure has forced VicForests to back off: they now say that they won't cut the road. However, the road is still marked as 'approved' on VicForests maps so it is still a possibility.

If you email the env ministers office saying you don't want to see a road in the Alpine national park, in particular the 70ha linear logging coupe (535-501-0003) proposed along Kings Spur track, that will really help.

Her email is: lily.d'ambrosio@minstaff.vic.gov.au

Background info here > https://themountainjournal.wordpres...lains-subjected-to-intensive-salvage-logging/

Thanks.
Do you know or can find out the zoning for this part of the park in the exact place the road was to be cut.
 
Hearing all this activity, it’s hard to believe native forest logging will just magically stop in 9 years.

An ‘addiction’ doesn’t just stop! Where’s the signature? And even if one exists - as per alpine grazing, anything signed can be counter-signed!

When I ask government people about this - where is the signature - I keep being pointed to this media release, which is seen as government policy, and am told it is a commitment. Obviously a future government could undo it if they had the numbers.

https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/protecting-victorias-forests-and-threatened-species-0
 
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snowgum

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When I ask government people about this - where is the signature - I keep being pointed to this media release, which is seen as government policy, and am told it is a commitment. Obviously a future government could undo it if they had the numbers.

https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/protecting-victorias-forests-and-threatened-species-0


Agreed. Governments flip flop on key policies all the time Cam. Look at Fed ALP and their key franking credits and CGT planks. Torn to shreds post election.

There’s a Vic election in ~ 19 months. And other in 5.5 years.

O’Brien, Guy, Smith, Southwick and co. will move ‘heaven and earth’ to overturn ‘a signature’ to subdue their regional base.

But a itty bitty media Govt release spun 3 years before by their foe, literally won’t even worth the paper it was printed on! :confused: Pun intended! :D
 

Xplora

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hi, sorry, I missed this one. Its a general zoning within the park, as I understand it - and there are 3 ways a road can be approved within a national park in VIC.
I am not sure what you mean by general zone. There are Wilderness zones, Remote and natural areas and reference areas. Legislation provides for what can and cannot be done in each. For example in remote and natural areas, no roadwork can be done to increase a roads ability to carry more vehicles. You can't erect permanent structures either. It is likely the area in question is a Wilderness zone which does allow for some things with ministerial permission.
 

snowgum

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Folks, mouth of our sup-alpine (valley) areas are excised from the ANP - surely one of the most cynical aspects of the Park’s creation.

I think it’s a bit rich for the Govt. to allow road construction through the park system, purely to rip timber out of the State Forest. Which ultimately reduces the chances of adding this area of the Dargo High Plains to the ANP in the future. A worthy goal - one day?

For some context: If the Govt. was carving up the Royal Botanic Gardens to access something - a quarry or a building site, most people would be understandably outraged. But because this proposed development (road & logging) is remote and hidden from view to all but a handful of people, it’s supposedly OK?

Well I say all the more reason to stop the logging road and the vandalism, er, sorry,... the logging!
 
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Snow Blowey

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Where do we grow timber sustainably if we don't use any of the high rainfall areas that are not out of view?

Do you really think it is a win if the trees are cleared to make the road and then left on the ground to rot?
 

skifree

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Where do we grow timber sustainably if we don't use any of the high rainfall areas that are not out of view?

Couple of thousand acres in SE SA for a start and there is more room available, but lack of demand has slowed planting rates.

Thousands of acres were found outside WHA and National Parks in Tas in a very short period.

The difference being these other sites cost money (typically farms were bought in Tas) whereas parks tend be given for free or the royalties levied offset by other subsidies. It's a rort.
 
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skifree

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Here is some real good looking land for commercial forestry.

325436_f44f6e578a7d7a6fa1e4377aecf00f3c.JPG
 
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Snow Blowey

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Mean annual rainfall of about 600mm and hot summer climate. Similar in SE SA. Makes for slow growing trees.

There are some state forests within 50km of Burrendong. There used to be plenty of State Forests across NSW including in this area. In the last 10-15 years lots have been converted to National Park or SCA for political reasons.
 
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Legs Akimbo

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Mean annual rainfall of about 600mm and hot summer climate. Similar in SE SA. Makes for slow growing trees.

There are some state forests within 50km of Burrendong. There used to be plenty of State Forests across NSW including in this area. In the last 10-15 years lots have been converted to National Park or SCA for political reasons.
I can't help thinking that, if the folk who spent the last century cutting trees down had devoted a bit of attention to planting new ones, the problem wouldn't exist.
 

snowgum

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Where do we grow timber sustainably if we don't use any of the high rainfall areas that are not out of view?

Do you really think it is a win if the trees are cleared to make the road and then left on the ground to rot?

Most green-leaning folks would tolerate farming for logs on the interface between the farms and the higher alps.

I note Skifree’s information. I also note that house frames have largely given up timber and moved to metal (steel?) and modular (concrete?) construction. There isn’t the need - it’s very pulp/paper driven and mostly for export - which to me is a poor use of what was once, a fabulous forest!

The problem is the Australian forest industry has never been content with limited scale. It moves endlesslessly from coupe to coupe until there’s now very little unlogged mature forest - yes not helped by fire.

And while the timber industry points at National and State Parks as culprits - at least in Vic, the parks excised most of the log-gable timber areas. One wonders if these current and former timber-cutting areas will ever be suitable for wildlife habitat and recreation - unlike what the glossy brochures from VicForests show!
 

skifree

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I also note that house frames have largely given up timber and moved to metal (steel?

Afraid not. Timber still is the dominate framing material at least in SA. I'd be surprised if it's much different in other states.

At present there is a timber shortage & we looking at importing more timber to meet demand.

The shortage of timber is a big enough of a problem that some big home builders are offering discounts to move to steel frames. For cookie cutter housing steel can be very efficient. Otherwise it tends to be a whisker more expensive due to more front end costs in setting up the design & production information.

In the background there is a issue with steel pricing, steel material costs have gone up variously 17 to 30% depending on the product over the last 12 months. This is separate to local demand and influenced by world markets.
 

skifree

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One wonders if these current and former timber-cutting areas will ever be suitable for wildlife habitat and recreation - unlike what the glossy brochures from VicForests show!

Tas Forests have been replanting mixed forests (as opposed to mono culture) in many areas for many years. I have been in some more mature of these in the Picton valley and to my eyes they certainly do have plenty of birds and there is evidence of other animals (road kill and scats). I'm sure they are doing some detailed survey work of what is happening but I've not looked for this. So I think it is possible but it is clearly a lot of work and results possibly not guaranteed. And this is only happening being the Government owned timber company. As far as I am aware all the other timber companies is Tas only do mono culture plantings.
 

DidSurfNowSki

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Gotta get in quick before anyone knows.
Reminds me of the GDE work in Canberra. They wanted to clear a whole stack of trees to extend a road. The people opposing the work put in a legal objection. Unfortunately there was a small window of opportunity from midnight to start the work to when the court was going to hear the case in the morning. The whole lot was cleared overnight. Every single tree.
 

skifree

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Reminds me of the GDE work in Canberra. They wanted to clear a whole stack of trees to extend a road. The people opposing the work put in a legal objection. Unfortunately there was a small window of opportunity from midnight to start the work to when the court was going to hear the case in the morning. The whole lot was cleared overnight. Every single tree.
Not an uncommon approach.

But we do need to accept that sometimes trees need to go.
 
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Snow Blowey

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Most green-leaning folks would tolerate farming for logs on the interface between the farms and the higher alps.

I note Skifree’s information. I also note that house frames have largely given up timber and moved to metal (steel?) and modular (concrete?) construction. There isn’t the need - it’s very pulp/paper driven and mostly for export - which to me is a poor use of what was once, a fabulous forest!

The problem is the Australian forest industry has never been content with limited scale. It moves endlesslessly from coupe to coupe until there’s now very little unlogged mature forest - yes not helped by fire.

And while the timber industry points at National and State Parks as culprits - at least in Vic, the parks excised most of the log-gable timber areas. One wonders if these current and former timber-cutting areas will ever be suitable for wildlife habitat and recreation - unlike what the glossy brochures from VicForests show!


How do steel frames compare to timber in life cycle greenhouse gas emissions?

If climate change is the biggest threat to ecosystems all over the planet it should be the primary basis for assessing environmental impacts of chosen building methods.
 

Legs Akimbo

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How do steel frames compare to timber in life cycle greenhouse gas emissions?

If climate change is the biggest threat to ecosystems all over the planet it should be the primary basis for assessing environmental impacts of chosen building methods.
If you re-plant the trees a wood framed house is a carbon sink. The bolded bit is the tricky bit.
 
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I am not sure what you mean by general zone. There are Wilderness zones, Remote and natural areas and reference areas. Legislation provides for what can and cannot be done in each. For example in remote and natural areas, no roadwork can be done to increase a roads ability to carry more vehicles. You can't erect permanent structures either. It is likely the area in question is a Wilderness zone which does allow for some things with ministerial permission.

Sorry if I was unclear. It isn't a zone like wilderness, reference area, etc. It is just part of the park. There are 3 ways a road can be approved in a park - details are in the story I posted at the start of this thread.
 
Where do we grow timber sustainably if we don't use any of the high rainfall areas that are not out of view?

Do you really think it is a win if the trees are cleared to make the road and then left on the ground to rot?

The issue here is that the road will go through mostly snow gum country, which is no good to the industry, so I expect they would just windrow/ burn it. From having a look at the linear coupe this week, there is possibly a bit of Mountain Gum and Alpine Ash at the end of the road that may be suitable, although based on what happened in the Jones Creek coupe, its likely that would just go for pulp. I don't think that's a good enough reason to cut down high elevation forests when so much of the surrounding area has been killed by fire if its just ending up as pulp or pallets.
 

skifree

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The issue here is that the road will go through mostly snow gum country, which is no good to the industry, so I expect they would just windrow/ burn it. From having a look at the linear coupe this week, there is possibly a bit of Mountain Gum and Alpine Ash at the end of the road that may be suitable, although based on what happened in the Jones Creek coupe, its likely that would just go for pulp. I don't think that's a good enough reason to cut down high elevation forests when so much of the surrounding area has been killed by fire if its just ending up as pulp or pallets.

So a shit ton of effort to get to some low grade wood for pulp via a National Park that may not need a road and all the issues a road brings.

I trust there is a full EIS done for both the road & coupe.

And that there are proper fair and reasonable royalties being charged for an asset that is heaps old & will take heaps of time to replace.
 
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snowgum

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But this is nuts!

The resorts struggle to do the odd summer grass & Heath slash and that’s outside the ANP.

And AFAIR: in resorts a snowgum is planted for each tree lost during a development.

Our conservation laws are a crock: they’re (generally) quite firm WRT resorts (as they should do) but let loggers and others? off lightly. o_O
 
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snowgum

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snowgum

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No

2nd para radiata pine.

Oops makes sense. Not sure the industry has used hardwood in ages.

I wonder if this means a lot of the RP around Bright, Corryong and Stretzleckis are immature? Or lost to fire? There always seems so much growing near bright but I guess the cycle takes ~ 20 years?
 

Rabid K9

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Wood products are going nowhere soon & the plantation industry using native species has vast potential, particularly in terms of value adding, product diversification & increased employment. We have some of the world best & fastest growing timber species, one only has to look at places like Sweden, Norway & Austria to see what a progressive, forward thinking industry operating with more efficient use of resource.

But that is a whole different industry & economic rationale to the low return, industrial logging of high value native forests that has been the norm in Australia since the 60/70's.

I'm working quite a bit in private, native species plantations, with what I like to term 'micro-forestry'. Seeing simple products come out of 30-40 year old plantations merely hints at the potential.

Last time I looked, it takes little longer than 40 years to grow a Hamersley iron plantation.
 
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Rabid K9

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Oops makes sense. Not sure the industry has used hardwood in ages.

I wonder if this means a lot of the RP around Bright, Corryong and Stretzleckis are immature? Or lost to fire? There always seems so much growing near bright but I guess the cycle takes ~ 20 years?

Depends on the product. Many solid timber products (power poles, structural) are 30 year plus rotations. A pine plantation had become quite attached too near me recently harvested with some blocks of 50-60 year old radiata (just before species decline about 70 years), some impressive logs coming out of there, maxing out the harvesting equipment.

European large format laminated products have impressed me, using much larger format beams & load bearing elements than commonly seen in Australian residential construction, originating from much smaller logs, often harvested from more difficult terrain.
 
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snowgum

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Depends on the product. Many solid timber products (power poles, structural) are 30 year plus rotations. A pine plantation had become quite attached too near me recently harvested with some blocks of 50-60 year old radiata (just before species decline about 70 years), some impressive logs coming out of there, maxing out the harvesting equipment.

European large format laminated products have impressed me, using much larger format beams & load bearing elements than commonly seen in Australian residential construction, originating from much smaller logs, often harvested from more difficult terrain.

Timber is a lovely material to work with - use in housing, he’ll even skis!

But we’ve lowered standards, decided to allow so much timber to be felled for pulp and paper. Can’t the industry players see the folly in this, with far fewer mature forests left to fight over? They’ve seen this coming for decades and cried poor each crisis!
 
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