Logging in the VIC Alpine national park

Snow Blowey

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Snow Blowey

Old n' Crusty
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You would be lucky to find the cleared lines in 10 years time.

Have been involved in some mining sites with cleared grids that we gone in less than 5 years. Pretty hard to beat the vegetation. Just keeps coming back.

Perhaps in another 1000 years when the Chinese are in charge the European settlers of Australia of the 2000's can talk about the cultural clearing and how it renewed the vegetation.
 
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snowgum

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Some new age IT billionaire needs to put some cash into a pre-election ad campaign in marginal seats pushing for environmental protections.

Rather than just the traditional coal billionaires backing in the main parties into a corner before an election, supported of course by a trade union bloc sh*tscared of losing votes in regional seats.

Talk about being wedged between rentseekers on the Right and the Left!

Maybe the bankers concerned about stranded assets and the insurers concerned about uncoverable losses can talk some sense into mainstream pollies’ heads.

About time the financial sector rode to the rescue... what are the chances?

Didn’t there use to be some political party that took up environmental issues way back?

Wonder what became of them?


We need the Atlassian dude to take up the Forest cause in addition to CC.

Unfortunately there may be few decent swathes of unburnt OG Forest left in SE OZ by the time CC mandates kick in. Frustrating! :confused:
 
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snowgum

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Snow Blowey

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Just read that also. What a waste of time. Trying to make something out of nothing. A few steeper bits in what are mostly compliant coupes. Onmce you start in an area its best to maximise the impact in that area than to spread it out over a bigger footprint avoiding some of the marginal slopes. 66 times larger than the MCG. Farking huge unless you wanted to actually compare it to the total areas being discussed which were probably eleventy billion times the size of the MCG. ABC journos not to good at providing any context to their numbers.

I liked the picture showing the guy looking at slopes two years after logging showing amazing amount of ground cover. Showing just how temporary the effects of logging are.
 
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Tanuki

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Just read that also. What a waste of time. Trying to make something out of nothing. A few steeper bits in what are mostly compliant coupes. Onmce you start in an area its best to maximise the impact in that area than to spread it out over a bigger footprint avoiding some of the marginal slopes. 66 times larger than the MCG. Farking huge unless you wanted to actually compare it to the total areas being discussed which were probably eleventy billion times the size of the MCG. ABC journos not to good at providing any context to their numbers.

I liked the picture showing the guy looking at slopes two years after logging showing amazing amount of ground cover. Showing just how temporary the effects of logging are.
Yeah, nah. First it was illegal. Second, I'll take the advice of Dr Lindenmyer and the other scientist's over your arguments any day.
If you drive the central highlands you can see how extensive the clearfell logging is and how devastating the impacts of the monoculture silviculture practices are.
 

Xplora

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I liked the picture showing the guy looking at slopes two years after logging showing amazing amount of ground cover. Showing just how temporary the effects of logging are.
What do you call temporary? The effects of logging are felt in an area for much longer than 2 years. Just for starters, the new growth does not have the root system to stabalise the soil then when it gets to about 13 years old it sucks all the moisture and continues doing this for a very long time. Illegal logging has been receiving protection from the regulator for many years. The same thing has been happened in mining as well. Plenty of illegal mining activity went on without a single charge. That is changing now. DELWP need to lift their game.
 

Snow Blowey

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Yeah, nah. First it was illegal. Second, I'll take the advice of Dr Lindenmyer and the other scientist's over your arguments any day.
If you drive the central highlands you can see how extensive the clearfell logging is and how devastating the impacts of the monoculture silviculture practices are.

Compared to what? The no logging case? Thats not the issue here. The issue being discussed in the 30 degree slope threshold. And that very small parts of the logged areas exceed 30 degrees.

I think it would be great if we could grow timber efficiently on the flat ground but evoloution and climate and all that says these big trees grow where they grow because of climate and climate is dependant on the topography.
 
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snowgum

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Yeah, nah. First it was illegal. Second, I'll take the advice of Dr Lindenmyer and the other scientist's over your arguments any day.
If you drive the central highlands you can see how extensive the clearfell logging is and how devastating the impacts of the monoculture silviculture practices are.
One of the many notable logging fails I’ve noticed during my travels.

The big piles of old logs just south of the Bullfight as I tried to walk up and over Mt Bullfight for a day in the late 90s. (Sorry no pics handy - I probably have a 35mm slide, somewhere in the vault).

For those unfamiliar with Mt Bullfight, it’s a small sub-alpine plateau (@1470m) ~ 10-15 km northeast of Lake Mtn. It’s plains up top ‘could’ be skiable but while it’s surrounded by logging & 4WD tracks, our authorities haven’t seen fit to cut or mark a walking track (se pics from Google maps below)

As a BTW: With some TLC from Parks & DELWP - Bullfight area could become part of a Lake Mt to Torbrek walk - a thought bubble of mine. It traverse three subalpine peaks/plateau but apart from the cost and work to cut and develop this track, it would cross close to existing or past logging coupes. Experience shows our land managers tend to discourage recreation near coupes - possibly as much the embarrassment as to safety? (My opinion - no proof).

The stack made travel very difficult, a bit like an armed forces obstacle course. It seemed like a waste of timber - to cut all this alpine ash, presumably burn and then leave on the ground - I assume it was finally burnt to smitherines in the 03/04 or 09 fires?

But you wonder what the VF contractors were thinking. And how widespread these ‘sudden evacuations’ are.

Shall I also mention the influx of blackberries present near the logs. These clusters typically follows logging operations - that’s not best practice or good rehab in my book.

As for what species we lost during this particular harvest - I guess we’ll never know. I’d back Dr Lindenmyer’s view over VF anyday.

04AEF76C-1422-43DB-AC17-18BDB08493B7.png


F31DD4E2-D7AA-417E-8DBF-F24731D5A83D.png
 

Snow Blowey

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What do you call temporary? The effects of logging are felt in an area for much longer than 2 years. Just for starters, the new growth does not have the root system to stabalise the soil then when it gets to about 13 years old it sucks all the moisture and continues doing this for a very long time. Illegal logging has been receiving protection from the regulator for many years. The same thing has been happened in mining as well. Plenty of illegal mining activity went on without a single charge. That is changing now. DELWP need to lift their game.
Again context of the outrage. The argument is being phrased on the basis that its detrimental to water quality in the Thompson Dam. But dense ground cover is evident in the area logged 2 years ago (taking this information from the picture journal). I'd suggest this would hold things together quite well combined with the root systems of the previously felled trees.

If not - where are the photos of the erosoion in these rehab areas. If i were an alarmist journo i'd be filling my story with these to make my point. Its not like they are selective with what they publish to present both sides of the coin.
 

Legs Akimbo

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As a BTW: With some TLC from Parks & DELWP - Bullfight area could become part of a Lake Mt to Torbrek walk - a thought bubble of mine. It traverse three subalpine peaks/plateau but apart from the cost and work to cut and develop this track, it would cross close to existing or past logging coupes. Experience shows our land managers tend to discourage recreation near coupes - possibly as much the embarrassment as to safety? (My opinion - no proof).
On the South Coast of NSW the forestry people do not log within a kilometre or so of the Princes Hwy - the main drag. I suspect that the reason is that the loggers know that, if the general public saw the devastation of clearfelling, they would be outraged and the game would be up. And it's all for woodchips.
 

Mister Tee on XC Skis

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Again context of the outrage. The argument is being phrased on the basis that its detrimental to water quality in the Thompson Dam. But dense ground cover is evident in the area logged 2 years ago (taking this information from the picture journal). I'd suggest this would hold things together quite well combined with the root systems of the previously felled trees.

If not - where are the photos of the erosoion in these rehab areas. If i were an alarmist journo i'd be filling my story with these to make my point. Its not like they are selective with what they publish to present both sides of the coin.
What state sanctioned Logging has done to the Forest in the Rubicon state forest is criminal. Go there and take a look. It is troubling to say the least what is being done to Melbourne's water catchment areas.
 

Xplora

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Again context of the outrage. The argument is being phrased on the basis that its detrimental to water quality in the Thompson Dam. But dense ground cover is evident in the area logged 2 years ago (taking this information from the picture journal). I'd suggest this would hold things together quite well combined with the root systems of the previously felled trees.

If not - where are the photos of the erosoion in these rehab areas. If i were an alarmist journo i'd be filling my story with these to make my point. Its not like they are selective with what they publish to present both sides of the coin.
This photos are a couple of years after logging finished. The many access tracks into coupes also causes problems for water quality.
img079.jpg


img080.jpg
 

Ubiquitous Steve

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Interesting discussion.
Lake Mt and Mt Margaret have as much biomass on the ground(fallen timber)as is still standing uoright(dead).Those intense fires are causing more grief than some clear felling coupes.A very very wide area is covered by this description.
Do not try to bush bash it’s impossible!Bears need a chipper for operations!
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Snow Blowey

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This photos are a couple of years after logging finished. The many access tracks into coupes also causes problems for water quality.
img079.jpg


img080.jpg
Thats more like it. But don't forget, you could probably take similar photos of erosion on the roads us mountain recreators use to access the mountains. Or roads the hydro authorities use to create renewable energy schemes.
 
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Xplora

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Thats more like it. But don't forget, you could probably take similar photos of erosion on the roads us mountain recreators use to access the mountains. Or roads the hydro authorities use to create renewable energy schemes.
The issue is when it is close to a water supply but it seems only Melbourne water supply. Small hamlets near logging coupes are of no consequence but logging does threaten the water supply of people living remotely and relying on the streams. Recently I travelled through a logging area after heavy rain and can see the difference between streams without logging nearby and those adjoining logging coupes. Overnight the rivers turned to mud. The same goes for streams adjoining any sort of development. They run muddy sooner and for longer than streams without logging nearby. The Cobungra for instance muddies up because of development around Dinner Plain. The Victoria river is a tributary of the Cobungra and is probably the main culprit. The Deddick River is another good example of how logging affects water supply. Bonang River also. All big logging areas.
 

Ubiquitous Steve

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The existing steep track down from Hotham Airport funnels a fair bit of soil into that part of the Cobungra .

Some run off is always going to happen even when dozers create drain humps and sidewise drains.

Even the Alpine Walking Track contributes as it runs towards Dibbins Hut.

Like wise Brandy Ck Fire Trail also contributes too.

Parks might need to consider their contributions to stream pollution from these tracks.
 

Snow Blowey

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The issue is when it is close to a water supply but it seems only Melbourne water supply. Small hamlets near logging coupes are of no consequence but logging does threaten the water supply of people living remotely and relying on the streams. Recently I travelled through a logging area after heavy rain and can see the difference between streams without logging nearby and those adjoining logging coupes. Overnight the rivers turned to mud. The same goes for streams adjoining any sort of development. They run muddy sooner and for longer than streams without logging nearby. The Cobungra for instance muddies up because of development around Dinner Plain. The Victoria river is a tributary of the Cobungra and is probably the main culprit. The Deddick River is another good example of how logging affects water supply. Bonang River also. All big logging areas.

Amazing how places are only "catchments" if they are in catchments of big city water supply storages.

Everywhere is a drinking water catchment for someone. We put up with intensive agriculture and mining and urban development in ours. Orange actually allows its urban runoff to fill its water supply dam.
 

Snow Blowey

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So just watched the telesegment on 730. One other thing i thought was worth noting. The whole basis of the complaint is that water quality will be affected. But no water quality data to show this??

Was pleasing to see that the Vic government changed the rule to allow small portions of each coupe to exceed 30 degrees. Like i posted first up, when you go into an area, you may as well take as much resource as possible. Any timber you don't harvest in one coupe has to come from somewhere else, so you just end up with more area disturbed by roads and clearing for the same harvest.
 
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Tanuki

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So just watched the telesegment on 730. One other thing i thought was worth noting. The whole basis of the complaint is that water quality will be affected. But no water quality data to show this??

Was pleasing to see that the Vic government changed the rule to allow small portions of each coupe to exceed 30 degrees. Like i posted first up, when you go into an area, you may as well take as much resource as possible. Any timber you don't harvest in one coupe has to come from somewhere else, so you just end up with more area disturbed by roads and clearing for the same harvest.
Watch it again tonight.
 

nezumi

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snowgum

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This photos are a couple of years after logging finished. The many access tracks into coupes also causes problems for water quality.
img079.jpg


img080.jpg
Your taxes at work? But this is just one example. There’s (at a guess) hundreds of these coupes across Victorian forests. This will take a long time to recover - if ever.

VF never admit the damage they cause and have an excuse for everything. And as Nezumi notes above, this Government org even paid a PI to conduct surveillance on conservationists. They fail the pub test.

Imagine if all these millions of taxpayer-funded dollars was spent on proper forest rehab, fauna rehab and captive Breeding and release, waking, riding & 4WD track maintenance, signage, camp-ground and hut improvement, ranger presence and mapping? How good would that be?

2030 cannot come fast enough. :oops:
 

Mister Tee on XC Skis

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Your taxes at work? But this is just one example. There’s (at a guess) hundreds of these coupes across Victorian forests. This will take a long time to recover - if ever.

VF never admit the damage they cause and have an excuse for everything. And as Nezumi notes above, this Government org even paid a PI to conduct surveillance on conservationists. They fail the pub test.

Imagine if all these millions of taxpayer-funded dollars was spent on proper forest rehab, fauna rehab and captive Breeding and release, waking, riding & 4WD track maintenance, signage, camp-ground and hut improvement, ranger presence and mapping? How good would that be?

2030 cannot come fast enough. :oops:
Face it .The Lib Labs hate nature and love shoveling $$$$$ to their mates and we are doomed. Just enjoy what is left of the natural world while we still can.
 

snowgum

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Face it .The Lib Labs hate nature and love shoveling $$$$$ to their mates and we are doomed. Just enjoy what is left of the natural world while we still can.
True - at least modern Liberals (Gordon Gecko clones?).

I understand back in Rupert Hamer’s term, there was a ‘bit’ of interest for Parks and conservation.

But somehow in our ‘race to become wealthy’ we’ve forgotten that we have to live amongst the mess we create. Far too manny folks don’t care about what happens beyond the urban boundary. If you can’t see from the Eureka Bdg or Mt Dandenong, it doesn’t happen? It’s very sad.

Even if By some miracle, future logging cessation restores the forests to something like the former self - obviously, when we’re long gone, it’s unlikely that our native faunal species will recover.

That’s another apology to write for our grandkids? (A growing list).
 

Mister Tee on XC Skis

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True - at least modern Liberals (Gordon Gecko clones?).

I understand back in Rupert Hamer’s term, there was a ‘bit’ of interest for Parks and conservation.

But somehow in our ‘race to become wealthy’ we’ve forgotten that we have to live amongst the mess we create. Far too manny folks don’t care about what happens beyond the urban boundary. If you can’t see from the Eureka Bdg or Mt Dandenong, it doesn’t happen? It’s very sad.

Even if By some miracle, future logging cessation restores the forests to something like the former self - obviously, when we’re long gone, it’s unlikely that our native faunal species will recover.

That’s another apology to write for our grandkids? (A growing list).
"Grandpa what did trees look like?"
"Oh son they were magical things that made the air we used to breathe!"
 
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Snow Blowey

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You guys need to get out more. There will always be trees. You can't stop them coming back. Its about the pace of change to ecosystems. That is the key point. Managed harvesting of timber can work. Flat out opposing forestry is stupid as we all rely on timber products.

How many of you are opposed to use of plastics and are demanding they be replaced with paper? Where does the paper come from?
 

Snow Blowey

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It would be beneficial then if forestry could plant enough of their own forest and not rely on harvesting pubic forests for which they pay a pittance for.
Who uses the timber? We all still get to use the state forests so its not like they get full control of the place.
 

snowgum

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Who uses the timber? We all still get to use the state forests so its not like they get full control of the place.
We’ve sent chips to Japan since at least Jeff’s early days (30 years!) - as Skifree notes, for low real monetary returns.

But Japan has heaps of trees (based on my bus/train travel to Hakuba) - could it be they value their forests more than us? How stupid are we!)

We really don’t need to be the paper & pulp centre of SE Asia. Apparently South America can sell chips at much volumes from plantation forests - & at lower rates. It’s a matter of time until we lose this market - let’s lose it while there’s something left?

Other uses?
I love working with timber - it’s a lovely material to handle. But (I understand) our rotation strategies aren’t allowing forests to mature sufficiently mature - they’re young, dense and stingy poles when cut - not towering 50m-100m monsters! (Do they even exist these days? We log near the Ada tree!)

Even VF admit the older, bigger trees aren’t available in anywhere near the quantities they used to? (Comments like only x years left?) So, short of nuking the younger growth to oblivion, the State Govt. & VF must make some big bold changes (reductions) to see the forest recover.

I note, Pro-logging advocates won’t touch the endangered fauna aspect - I think we all know they don’t recover as fast as the actual trees. No wonder pre-logging faunal surveys are thin and patchy (ironically! :oops: ) these days - why would VF want to provide further evidence as to the destruction?


As for the ABC reports - VFs own maps prove they log on unsuitability steep slopes. Even when caught out they first ignore & delay, then lie, then just get the Govt to change the law. That’s not ‘caring for the environment’. But then ‘the care’ is just a thin veneer - another pun! Oops! My bad! :whistle:
 
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Snow Blowey

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SO no logging here. But we still want to use timber based products? Make it a problem for some poor country with no regulation. Not much of a win for the environment IMO.
 

snowgum

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SO no logging here. But we still want to use timber based products? Make it a problem for some poor country with no regulation. Not much of a win for the environment IMO.
So we log trees for crappy chips for Japan who ‘could’ do the same in their country. But we sacrifice or trees - because we care for the Japanese environment more than ours?

We could choose not to log most of these smaller goalpost trees and allocate some to be decent timber in whatever 40-80 years? You tell me? But no, we chip away? It’s cheap or free anyway? So not our worry?

And our plantation planning needs to step up. I’m not in possession of sufficient data to determine if softwood and hardwood plantation can supply 100% of our current/future needs.

But I believe that VF wants access to a
AlMost-zero cost taxpayer-subsidised forest, for as long as possible, before gradually increasing the use of plantation - which after all, would take some funding, hard work and forward planning. Not something we do well in this state - not forests & parks at least.
 
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Xplora

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The bigger issue is how forests are logged and where coupes are. Some places should not have any logging. I have a very old documentary propaganda video about logging and I recall the narrator saying there was a seemingly inexhaustible supply of timber. Made before colour. The logging industry is a bit like the ski resorts. Can't see the wood for the trees and don't prepare for the inevitable future. No more trees. Plantations could have been established 50 years ago.

And I did read a while ago we have not sold wood chip to Asia for paper for a long time.
 
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snowgum

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The bigger issue is how forests are logged and where coupes are. Some places should not have any logging. I have a very old documentary propaganda video about logging and I recall the narrator saying there was a seemingly inexhaustible supply of timber. Made before colour. The logging industry is a bit like the ski resorts. Can't see the wood for the trees and don't prepare for the inevitable future. No more trees. Plantations could have been established 50 years ago.

And I did read a while ago we have not sold wood chip to Asia for paper for a long time.
Very interesting - the timber might have considered inexhaustible -once - at least domestically. Major fires clearly have turned that around but surely 100+ years of commercial logging must start to impact in future activity?

Re the Asian export issues (Japan): there used to be huge piles of chips in North Geelong near the port/rail siding - everyone passing used to comment on the size!

Whether Japan or other markets have stops, the requirement (contract) was quoted in Victorian papers, in the last couple of years. It Was a major reason why we (Vic) couldn’t just stop operations in a blink.

Happy to be corrected - no lover of chipping for chip sake!

Ps: recent LNP discussions around using ‘waste wood’ as a renewal energy source worry me - just another death IMO

FWIW: CC policy is a major reason to preserve native trees - esp. in remaining (& dwindling) Old growth forests.

As for coupe burning for seed generation, post logging - I’m not sure if that particularly compatible with future CC (ZNC) policy?
 

Xplora

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As for coupe burning for seed generation, post logging - I’m not sure if that particularly compatible with future CC (ZNC) policy?
Along with the seed germination you get the weeds and then you can't spray the weeds because it will kill the new growth. Vic Forests bring the weeds with them from one coupe to the next and when they leave it is not rehabed properly. Found some Broom flowering in a coupe yesterday. If not controlled the seed will be picked up by cars on the log road and taken further up into the the National park.
 

snowgum

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Along with the seed germination you get the weeds and then you can't spray the weeds because it will kill the new growth. Vic Forests bring the weeds with them from one coupe to the next and when they leave it is not rehabed properly. Found some Broom flowering in a coupe yesterday. If not controlled the seed will be picked up by cars on the log road and taken further up into the the National park.

My layperson experiences through BIC is similar - more coupes/logging = more weeds.

The issue is typically neglected by our authorities and logging advocates, or deliberately conflated with other issues such as bushfires, pre-emptive seasonal burning or even cattle grazing - and/or lack thereof.

Frankly, I’m not sure who’s dummer for these furphies - those making the claims or the ignorant folks accepting them (bit of both?). :rolleyes:


Dare I say, the Asbestos and Cigarette PR marketers and lobbyists from past decades would have a field day with some claims some made by VF and forestery lobby groups. :whistle:
 
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