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News Lost Huts / Historic Buildings

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by Total Whiteout, Jan 7, 2020.

  1. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    It would be a brave person who would recommend a shelter to someone who then died in a fire which was more severe than expected. It would be an even braver person if they had any sort of expertise on the subject of fire shelters. It would really suck for the person who went to the substandard shelter instead of leaving early.
     
  2. Bogong

    Bogong Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    More woke than thou.
    But that's my point!!! In the real world we will never get nuclear bomb shelter like refuges in every hill town and hamlet. Failing that, we have to make do with what we have and many of the existing unofficial fire shelters are actually pretty good. So we should at least let people know that what I called "B grade shelters" exist rather than keeping that as the private knowledge of locals and leaving the fate of any non locals in the area to the whim of the fires.

    No doubt cold-hearted bureaucrats would advise that publicising any shelter less than 101% perfect is a bad idea as it would potentially subject the state government to claims pursued by a phalanx of "ambulance chasing lawyers", but I disagree. In a crisis, knowing that there is a pretty good (but not quite perfect) fire shelter nearby is vastly better than not knowing about any shelter.
     
  3. xcski

    xcski First Runs

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    I am also trying to confirm if the nordic shelter at Dry dam was burnt. Also if the scout hall in Cabra survived
     
  4. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

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    @Ozgirl
     
  5. zac150

    zac150 A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    I can’t speak for the current situation but most of the people I know who have lived up there (up to about 6years ago), had made the decision to live in Tumba. My point was that this may have preceded the companies decision to make it official, Dido only.

    IMO as it’s basically the equivalent of a mining camp now I would expect they will only rebuild what is needed to house staff.
     
    #205 zac150, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
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  6. zapruda

    zapruda One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    The boundaries of the fires are obviously still growing in KNP. Looking this morning these are huts that could still be in trouble. I use this link for hotspots - http://arcg.is/0Wi9SS

    Witzes
    Hains
    Patons
    Love Nest
    Cesjacks
    Coolamine Homestead
    Pedens
    Townsend
    Gooandra
    Millers
    Long Plain (wrapped)
     
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  7. art

    art One of Us

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    Ive got a hunch that in this case the wrapping might not be helping
     
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  8. zapruda

    zapruda One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    You might be right...
     
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  9. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Rear verandah area blocked off, underfloor area blocked off. Better than doing nothing and very worth doing.

    Trimming a bit over the windows would have been good as well.
     
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  10. kylep

    kylep Cage rattler Ski Pass: Gold

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    Long Plain hut is marked as within burnt area. Active fire on last night's linescan was north of here
    Witzes has been burnt around with the hut still reported ok

    Obviously risk still exists until the area is completely cold, but a good bit of protection there
     
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  11. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Was on a work party in 77 or 78 at Witzes, replaced a wall, I remember the guys adzing slabs, but we used a 4WD to hold the hut up while installing.
     
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  12. zapruda

    zapruda One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    I really appreciate the info on Witzes. I've spent far too many nights at that hut.
     
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  13. zapruda

    zapruda One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Nice one. Was it the west facing wall by any chance?
     
  14. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    I think so yes
     
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  15. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Several of the guys that were there have passed on sadly. Many fond memories for a teenaged telecrag, first tastes of many drinks around fires, many xc trips.
     
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  16. zapruda

    zapruda One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Were they part of part of the Bogong Group? Klaus H has a great pic of that west facing wall being replaced. You are probably in it.
     
  17. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Might have been, I knew them all from skiing, so many were members of a few groups. Would love to see the photo. I had long hair then, haha.
     
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  18. zac150

    zac150 A Local Ski Pass: Gold

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    I’ll get the plus one to ask, Megan b, David S and Matthew H to see if we can get news.
     
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  19. zapruda

    zapruda One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Ill email him and see if he has a digital copy of it. When I saw it was on a slide projected on his wall...
     
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  20. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator

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    Millers has trees in close proximity so if fire got/gets close it could be in trouble.
     
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  21. zapruda

    zapruda One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Thanks Zac. Funnily enough I just emailed Matthew about something unrelated.
     
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  22. kylep

    kylep Cage rattler Ski Pass: Gold

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    It's very close by
     
  23. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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  24. zapruda

    zapruda One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    They should leave it up there. It would be good for a swim in summer and spa in winter.
     
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  25. kylep

    kylep Cage rattler Ski Pass: Gold

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    Further work done at Millers (reported)
     
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  26. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    re the foil wrap

    article in Alpine Observer said that for wallaces & cope they used " a material known as Firezat - a foil-like cover with kevlar backing". inference that the same was used on spargos

    more info about the product https://www.firezat.com/
     
  27. art

    art One of Us

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    @currawong That is great news that the local team is prepared and had the right product for the job on hand and ready to go.

    can you post the article?
     
  28. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    :thumbs:
    See post #153 ;)
    I also remember posting something about it (or some very similar product) about 10 years ago.
     
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  29. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    Sorry, missed that.
     
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  30. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    All their stuff is paywalled. I saw physical paper. They didn't say anything else about it
     
  31. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    So it is not sarking at all but a specialised product. Cool (no pun intended)
    :cool:



    The website detail of the tests are nice but no test certificates (that I could find, are they buried deeper in the website?) for flammability or combustibility to the ISO equivalent of AS1530.1. So technically not certified to include in new builds in Oz and be compliant with NCC. Yes I know that is not the intention with the current excellent use of the material. I'm just thinking ahead.
     
  32. art

    art One of Us

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    Cool indeed.
    However some of the huts have been wrapped in sarking. The instagram post a few pages back for the wrapping of Pretty Plain used sarking.
     
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  33. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Anything better than nothing :thumbs:
     
  34. art

    art One of Us

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    Thats the theory that folk on this thread keep suggesting and probably why its been done.
    Im not convinced.

    Im going to stop speculating on the topic. Ive made some effort elsewhere to make sure the right experts get together to discuss.
     
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  35. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    It's been used before in Vic to protect huts. Successfully. Can't remember when and where though, nor what was used.
     
  36. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator

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    This is the better product.
     
  37. cold wombat

    cold wombat Twitter Contributer Moderator

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    "What was used" leading to "success" seems to be the critical factor. The assertion that "anything" is better than "nothing" is not unreasonably being questioned. It *might* be, but that's not an assumption that can go without testing.
     
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  38. Chaeron

    Chaeron Ski-Hike-Blade-Bike-Kayak Ski Pass: Gold

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    New Scientist has an article on some scenario testing on one of the products.. @teckel ‘s post #153:

    https://www.newscientist.com/articl...an-protect-houses-from-destructive-wildfires/

    Article includes video of a wrapped wooden hut going through a bushfire.


    Research source article:
    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmech.2019.00060/full

    “The best performed fire blankets may be able to protect building structures if the heat exposure is relatively short (<10 min). This conditions would happen when a wildfire front passes an isolated structure, e.g., a historic cabin. If the heat exposure continues, the fire blanket may more likely to be deteriorated or destroyed, while the building materials are being pyrolyzed and failed eventually. This situation would be the case for the structure-to-structure ignition. Therefore, for longer exposures (10 s of minutes to more than an hour), better fire blankets (materials, layer assemblies, etc.) would be needed. The key success factors in protecting the WUI structure are (1) the fire blanket's heat-blocking capability, (2) endurance under severe heat-exposure and high-wind conditions, and (3) proper installation to prevent hot-gas and firebrand penetration. Therefore, additional studies are needed in the future in the areas of advanced material/layer developments, blanket deployment methods, and multi-structure protection strategies.”
     
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  39. art

    art One of Us

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    The Aus distributors of the firefly product have just responded to a query i sent to them a few days ago.
    Apparently they have today had a query from NSW NPWS. (I wonder if someone from NSW NPWS is watching this thread.)

    They have stock in NSW and are offering a discounted price for use in hut protection.
     
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  40. TheFake

    TheFake One of Us

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    Just wrap the huts in Kaowool: http://www.morganadvancedmaterials.com/media/2910/kaowoolblankets-kaowoolblanketszrenglish-new.pdf

    It's only maaaybe carcinogenic...
     
  41. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Nah. They would have got the info from Vic DELWP or Parks. Given they've already used it - see Curra's post.
     
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  42. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Different stuff, UK origin I believe, could be wrong.
     
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  43. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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  44. cold wombat

    cold wombat Twitter Contributer Moderator

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    There is no doubt wrapping in fire resistant product helps. That is not in dispute. But a quick review of the study referenced there (and without chasing the further referenced studies) doesn't support the claim that *any* cladding type, regardless of fire rating will help. They quite reasonably focused on materials that were rated for fire resistance. If the cladding is at least as combustible as the structure (which has been shown to be a reasonable possibility), then it may inadvertently be doing more harm than good. Sure, in the "heat of the moment" without the opportunity to verify and obtain known good cladding, you'd probably want to use whatever you had on hand anyway "just in case", but it would be nice to know in advance for "next time".
     
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  45. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    I don't think anyone suggested that unless you're misinterpreting my post where I was referring to metal foil.
     
  46. cold wombat

    cold wombat Twitter Contributer Moderator

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    Apologies if I've misinterpreted then, but I certainly read the argument as "better to use any available cladding" rather than nothing, not a reference to "any available fire rated cladding" (foil or otherwise).
     
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  47. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    No. I didn't say fire-rated, but nor did I say 'any available cladding'. In the context of the post flow, I was merely referring to foil which reflects radiant heat. Generally speaking, other than direct flame impact, it's the radiant heat which will burn old fragile wooden structures. The foil would also stop direct ingress of flame to the most vulnerable parts - eaves, underneath the building, areas that trap leaf litter eg: verandahs, window ledges etc.
     
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  48. kylep

    kylep Cage rattler Ski Pass: Gold

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    I’d add embers as well. A few embers getting into these old dry huts with some dust and cracks to lodge in can start a smoldering Fire. Even just something smooth to stop the ingress can help a lot.
     
  49. teckel

    teckel Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

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    Of course, embers. How did I forget? Hence, any foil wrap is better than leaving these huts to their fate. Whether or not it's fire-rated, an attempt to save it by wrapping it in foil, is better than no attempt to do so.
     
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  50. kylep

    kylep Cage rattler Ski Pass: Gold

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    Small but stinging burn on my torso a few weeks back is a good reminder!
     
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