1. There's more to this forum than meets the eye!

    We have a vibrant community here conversing about all sorts of non-snow topics such as music, sport, politics and technology. Simply register to reveal all our Après topics or continue browsing and reading as a guest.

    NOTE: This notice may be closed.

    Dismiss Notice

Meidjo NTN

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by lennysan, Aug 9, 2015.

  1. skifree

    skifree grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 1998
    Messages:
    22,056
    Likes Received:
    13,228
    Location:
    Middle Oz
    Not required, fishing sinker.;)
     
    mr likes this.
  2. Idoitmyway

    Idoitmyway Early Days

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    56
    Location:
    Wandi
    Hey @skifree.
    As the only person I know who's skied the Spike bindings, what can you tell me?

    I've vacillated for some time about trying the NTN version (Louis does them on special order, when he gets time), it seems to tick many of my boxes:
    • Step in.
    • Brakes.
    • Look well built.
    • Decent looking tour mode if wanted.
    • Sensible design for "activity" adjustment.
    • The price doesn't require me to upset the national trade balance, unlike Bishop or Meidjo for instance.
    Louis reckons, "The SPIKE NTN feels a lot like 75 mm and I would say not much difference between the Voodoo NTN or 75mm in terms of flex and initiating the turn, but there is significant difference for riding an edge whether standing up or down low. NTN engages the edge much more precisely."

    Sounds just the ticket to me.
    But as you said earlier in this thread, it takes a while before a manufacturer gets things right. Louis has been skiing this combo for around 10 years he says, so presumably most problems are ironed out acceptably (I'm not averse to a bit of adjustment/modification/rebuilding as required). It doesn't appear to have too many dicky little plasticky bits.

    TIA
     
  3. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    17,748
    Likes Received:
    12,202
    Location:
    Jindabyne
    @Untele-whippet & @Ziggy both used to ski it I think.
     
  4. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2006
    Messages:
    15,144
    Likes Received:
    23,888
    Location:
    Blue Mtns, 1100M.
    I skied NTN Spike for a few seasons.
    They’re funky
    If you’re touring the brakes are a PITA and easy to remove but great if just used for lift accessed skiing.
    The tour mode latch is a bit fiddly to engage but the free pivot range of motion is awesome.
    They have the easiest to use heel risers of any binding , tele or AT that I’ve ever used.
    They are true step in but no release.
    Yes there is a bit of tinkering to get the right activity level by playing with different spring stiffness and pivot points.
    I used the double barrel version for resort skiing
    and I toured to Jagungal on the single barrel version.
    Louis is a great guy to chat to via email to answer questions about parts etc.
     
  5. skifree

    skifree grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 1998
    Messages:
    22,056
    Likes Received:
    13,228
    Location:
    Middle Oz
    I skied the spike, really nice heavy duty three pin binding.

    Didn’t fuss me self too much with the brakes.

    Never had the heel thing.

    A really great three pin binding, step in worked well, almost built like a T34 tank, except the moving parts are better.
     
  6. skifree

    skifree grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 1998
    Messages:
    22,056
    Likes Received:
    13,228
    Location:
    Middle Oz
    The next step from the spike/ bulldog of course is the ATKtelemark. ;)
     
    Telemark Phat likes this.
  7. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2006
    Messages:
    15,144
    Likes Received:
    23,888
    Location:
    Blue Mtns, 1100M.
  8. skifree

    skifree grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 1998
    Messages:
    22,056
    Likes Received:
    13,228
    Location:
    Middle Oz
    Too many extras.
     
    Telemark Phat likes this.
  9. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    17,748
    Likes Received:
    12,202
    Location:
    Jindabyne
    ATK Newmark



    Sadly no longer made due to the continued existance of 75mm boots.
     
    Dropknee diehard, Goski and skifree like this.
  10. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2006
    Messages:
    15,144
    Likes Received:
    23,888
    Location:
    Blue Mtns, 1100M.
    The Meccano binding.
     
    skifree likes this.
  11. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2003
    Messages:
    9,202
    Likes Received:
    3,991
    The Outlaw X ticks most of these too.
    [Edit - deletion]
    It was made to emulate the flex of the Axls in 75mm and IMO it really does, meaning it's an active binding. Stiffer springs are available.
    They're about $600 here.
    Not light but you mentioned 50/50 on/off piste IIRC.
    Into 2nd gen so debugged.
    They have 'catastrophic' release but I mount them on Telebry Safeout release plates.

    More: https://blisterreview.com/gear-reviews/2016-2017-22-designs-outlaw
     
  12. Idoitmyway

    Idoitmyway Early Days

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    56
    Location:
    Wandi
    Thanks for the replies on the Spike @skifree @Untele-whippet @Telemark Phat @Ziggy

    Mostly reinforces what I kind of expected
    • tele brakes are usually a bit cludgy, never seen one that functions as nicely as even most rental level alpine brakes.
    • good to hear they are as well made as they look
    • don't care too much about the release - at least until just after I hurt myself.
    The Outlaw X doesn't seem like it quite ticks my list of compromises - too active for my liking from what I've seen. And other reasons.

    So probably time to order and patiently await the new arrival.

    I don't quite believe that's true - previous discussion outlined pretty clearly that they had reliability issues - that's a very common reason for products to be pulled, warranty gets real expensive, real quick.

    If 75mm still exists, one needs to ask why? What are other systems not providing that skiers want?
    We live in a "free market" system - consumers (ostensibly) drive supply, not the other way around.
    If NTN/NN-BC (I put tech in with NTN as that's the underlying design) haven't taken over completely from 75mm, it's because consumers don't think they fill the same needs. Therefore it's not an issue with 75mm, it's an issue with suppliers not providing what consumers want (or think they want).
    Either a large number of consumers are wrong (this isn't really an option in Keynesian economics), or the suppliers haven't yet come up with the correct solution, or the current solution(s) are actually the right ones.

    You can't blame the existence of 75mm for the shortcomings of other systems.
    Oh, and if we removed 75mm from the planet, that wouldn't make the other systems any better. Perhaps you might argue that by taking 75mm out of play then more development might be directed to NTN, however I'd argue that is unlikely. Commercial development is driven by competition, removing competing products from the market is exactly how businesses reduce the need for development.

    I believe we are still waiting for the next "best" solution, and it will be a completely new boot/binding interface. So everything that currently exists is stifling it's development - back to a leather strap over the toe of the boot to encourage new development I say.
     
  13. skifree

    skifree grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 1998
    Messages:
    22,056
    Likes Received:
    13,228
    Location:
    Middle Oz
    A key reason is a reluctance to change, upgrade, spend money on gear. It's very real when talking with people about maybe they could treat themselves and upgrade their XX year old skis. Boots are similar.
     
    PK Sawd and Telemark Phat like this.
  14. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    Messages:
    25,761
    Likes Received:
    29,468
    I wonder what the sales comparison is now. I think a lot of people starting on 75mm buy it second hand, as you can buy a pretty new setup very cheap. I gave mine away, to be used for people trying it out. Worth less than a 26er mountain bike!
     
    Telemark Phat and skifree like this.
  15. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2006
    Messages:
    15,144
    Likes Received:
    23,888
    Location:
    Blue Mtns, 1100M.
    Hey! :emoji_bicyclist:
     
    telecrag likes this.
  16. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    17,748
    Likes Received:
    12,202
    Location:
    Jindabyne
    It is true. @skifree got it from the horses mouth. ATK were making the binding in partnership with Scarpa, but Scarpa were dragging their feet on developing the light weight boot to match the Newmark, so they stopped making the binding. It wasn't due to reliability issues.

    75mm isn't holding NTN back, its holding boot development back. By splitting a small market the return on R&D is also split.
     
  17. almontyrat

    almontyrat One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2005
    Messages:
    943
    Likes Received:
    725
    Location:
    Wesley Vale, Tasmania
    I concur. I currently have all my skis set up with inserts or switch plates that fit G3 and Spike Bulldog bindings. I also own a brand new pair of Garmont Venus boots for when the current ones crap out. To change to NTN would cost me a bomb and require all my skis to be filled and re drilled to accommodate a different screw pattern. Seriously not going to happen, I am happy as I am thanks.
     
  18. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    Messages:
    25,761
    Likes Received:
    29,468
    But what if you only think that you are happy?
     
    PK Sawd likes this.
  19. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    Messages:
    25,761
    Likes Received:
    29,468
  20. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2003
    Messages:
    9,202
    Likes Received:
    3,991
    Why go from 75mm to NTN?
    One class of skier is open to new tech and will pay to see how it performs - prepared to see their 75mm gear gather dust. Another class makes the move when their 75mm boots and/or liners are clapped out and they have to spend X bucks anyway, and think why not X + bindings.
    How many of the first class have gone back to their 75mm?
    How many of the 2nd regret not having stayed with 75mm?

    Added: to folk in the second category, I'd say this: you're letting your progression down if you don't demo several varieties of NTN.
    And you can't talk about NTN as if they all skied the same.
     
  21. skifree

    skifree grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 1998
    Messages:
    22,056
    Likes Received:
    13,228
    Location:
    Middle Oz
    That's actually a real bummer as I have been thinking about your foot issue and I think it would be eased by the switch to NTN.
     
  22. skifree

    skifree grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 1998
    Messages:
    22,056
    Likes Received:
    13,228
    Location:
    Middle Oz
    Very true.:thumbs:
     
  23. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2003
    Messages:
    9,202
    Likes Received:
    3,991
    A comment on 'active' bindings, cos I think it's a dumb term ....

    For years and over a succession of bindings starting with 7TMs my Scarpa T2Xs had 'rocker', another imprecise term. What it means is that the duckbill and slot weren't a good fit. There was slop. So the boot heel could come up aways at the start of a turn before anything happened.
    On one occasion dossa5 lent me his Hammerheads and skis to try. Wow - when I moved the bindings engaged earlier and more positively. Why waste time and energy on slop?
    With NTN there's the same improvement only greater. When I move I affect the binding and ski with more feel, more stability and more control.
    I'm only an intermediate telemarker and I'm happy to have every advantage that well-designed gear affords. My only regret is that I waited till those Scarpas clapped out before making the move.
     
    Telemark Phat likes this.
  24. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    Messages:
    25,761
    Likes Received:
    29,468
    Rim brakes v disc?
     
  25. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2003
    Messages:
    9,202
    Likes Received:
    3,991
    Good analogy.
    Who'd choose white-knuckle braking in the wet?
     
  26. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    Messages:
    25,761
    Likes Received:
    29,468
    Plenty! The Tour was still a very mixed bag.
     
  27. rols

    rols Addicted

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2006
    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    104
    Location:
    tas
    I haven't see any new 75mm boot molds in probably 15 years, so any R&D investment in boots must be going to NTN and yet progress in NTN boot development has, as you say, stalled. There must not be the market signals for anyone to justify investing in any telemark boot development.
     
  28. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    17,748
    Likes Received:
    12,202
    Location:
    Jindabyne
    Its already happening.


    Crispi EVO BC prototype from Jan this year

    NEW SCARPA NTN BOOTS: “…WE ARE WORKING ON IT.”

    And the market signal has been the increased number of NTN bindings and the decline of 75mm. With less 75mm there will be more innovation.
     
    skifree likes this.
  29. rols

    rols Addicted

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2006
    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    104
    Location:
    tas
    Those lowers look to be out of the current shiver/evo mold. The investment in lightening the buckle configuration is minor in the scheme of a full boot development budget. I'm waiting to see a proper ground up effort like scarpa put into the first NTN boots, then we'll hopefully see some real advancement.
     
    Telemark Phat likes this.
  30. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    17,748
    Likes Received:
    12,202
    Location:
    Jindabyne
    Me too, but its better than nothing happening.
     
  31. rols

    rols Addicted

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2006
    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    104
    Location:
    tas
    True.
     
  32. Idoitmyway

    Idoitmyway Early Days

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    56
    Location:
    Wandi
    I'm a class 2 skier, does that mean I need to ski NTN as a class 2 lever? hehehe

    On a more serious note, I spent some time in Everest Sports today trying on NTN boots (sh, don't tell anyone I'm even contemplating such heresy) and considering potential future tele gear.
    Tried a couple of Crispi and the Scott Voodoo.

    The Crispi Evo or whatever they are (one below the Race I think) felt like they might ski with a bit better lateral performance, but the bellows is scary stiff. I've heard in various places that it improves, but I find it hard to believe it'll ever get as soft as the Scott out of the box. I disliked the flex of the last Crispis I skied several years ago, maybe the CX or something? Had a weird stiff/collapsing feel to it.

    The Scott felt a somewhat better fit, but a bit softer in flex & more importantly laterally. My only reason to go to NTN would be to gain lateral rigidity. Of course how a boot feels in the shop and how it skis can be a fair way apart.
    The other problem with the Scott is that my high instep can barely get into the boot, I literally had to jam my foot in as far as I could, then jump on it to get it to go right in! Once in it felt fine. To do with that unusual overlap/tongue arrangement.
    I used to boot fit, and I have a reckless disregard for keeping things in pristine condition, so I'd be happy to just chop out or stretch the offending part of the boot.

    I'll very likely match them to the Spike NTN binding.

    So any real world experience skiing both boots?
    Probably mostly interested in comparisons of how the flex and lateral stiffness compares after a few days skiing.

    Please keep in mind that although I'm always interested in developing my technique, I've no interest whatsoever in losing supple flex in exchange for ... anything really. If that's a handicap, consider me happily handicapped.

    Snow on the hills around Bright, but I'm safely inside out of the dangers of the elements thanks to the Hotham road having apparently beamed itself up to Mars or something.
    Decent avi. down Mary's yesterday - don't think I've seen it run that far down ever before. And a couple of blokes bought some stove gas canisters in town this morning before heading up Feathertop to ski the chutes .... to each their own.
     
  33. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2003
    Messages:
    9,202
    Likes Received:
    3,991
    The Crispi belows soften up fairly quickly according to dossa5.

    Go to Snow Trek and Travel and try some Scarpas as well. Pete Cranage has three flavours. https://www.crosscountryskier.com.au/telemark-3

    None of the Crispi boots I've worn or tried are good fits for me while the TX Pros are as comfy as old slippers.
     
  34. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    17,748
    Likes Received:
    12,202
    Location:
    Jindabyne
    The Scotts are softer than the EVOs. Snow trek and travel could be worth a look. The scarpa fit could work well for you and I think the Scarpa Tx Pro has a softer flex than the Scotts.
     
  35. Ziggy

    Ziggy A Local Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2003
    Messages:
    9,202
    Likes Received:
    3,991
    The Scarpa foot has a narrower heel than the Crispi. The instep strap keeps the ankle down. The forefoot is 102mm wide.

    TXs are 3 buckle and soft. TX Pro, 4 buckle and firmer. TX Comp are tall and stiff.
     
  36. Idoitmyway

    Idoitmyway Early Days

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2019
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    56
    Location:
    Wandi
    Thanks @Ziggy

    "Softens up" is such a subjective term. I'm really after someone who's actually skied a bit of time in both to provide real-life comparison. dossa5 reckons the Crispi Evo is soft (after it's skied in), but other reviews put it toward the stiffer end of the spectrum, hence the need for comparison between the two.

    I'll drop in on Pete next time I'm up that way if I have time.
    I'm trying to get over a bit of a bee in my bonnet about Scarpa, long held prejudices and maintaining ones principles sometimes get in the way of an easy life. Scarpa/Dlack Diamond head office screwed me over many years ago and I've chosen not to forgive them. I doubt any of the culprits still work there now, so maybe I can see my way clear to a dishonourable discharge for them.
     
  37. Goski

    Goski Addicted

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2013
    Messages:
    250
    Likes Received:
    176
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Hadn't seen those until today. Nice video and looks like an interesting design for both touring and tele modes. Woud be very lightweight too. Does the Newark binding have any release capability in Tele mode in a fall?
     
  38. dossa5

    dossa5 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,418
    Likes Received:
    332
    Location:
    Ovens Valley N.E Vico
    Ive had 30+ days on the Evos and the bellows is quite soft by comparison to my old Garmonts.
     
  39. Dropknee diehard

    Dropknee diehard Early Days

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2019
    Messages:
    20
    Likes Received:
    57
    @Idoitmyway Will be up your way next week
    I have a pair of the original prototype Scarpa TX not the ones that broke or the ones that had the tech insert but the buttery soft prototypes.. your welcome to borrow (But not frankenstein them) and I have a spare set of freerides you can mount to your fence palings if you like
    PM me and I can get them to you if your keen.
     
  40. skifree

    skifree grey Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 1998
    Messages:
    22,056
    Likes Received:
    13,228
    Location:
    Middle Oz





    I have got hold of the ski crampon adapter and appropriate ski crampon. All seems to fit ok.

    I could not find much info on this stuff. But all looks good and works in the kitchen.

    Some field testing should happen tomoroz for a least functionality, might struggle to find real ice to play with.
     
    DPS Driver, Goski and Telemark Phat like this.
  41. dossa5

    dossa5 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2009
    Messages:
    1,418
    Likes Received:
    332
    Location:
    Ovens Valley N.E Vico
    Well after a solid month of skiing the 2.1s and early teething issues of pre-release Im a big fan of these.
    The release is wound up tight as are the springs. Very responsive and have handled anything thrown at them.
     
    Dropknee diehard, Ziggy, mr and 3 others like this.