Move to pull police from Victoria's snowfields

Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by FatBoyDave, Jun 1, 2016.

  1. dawooduck

    dawooduck Pool Room
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    Again, you seem to be just presenting random speculations.

    What point are you trying to make ?
     
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  2. dawooduck

    dawooduck Pool Room
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    Comprehension fail on your part. You appear to be guilty of generalized projecting of personal ideals and completely missing the conversation.
     
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  3. Chondro

    Chondro Dedicated Member
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    A number of friends of mine, work hard all week, play hard on the weekend.
    The whole RDT has put the jitters up them after a friend tested positive on a monday afternoon (had nothing since friday - figure that out). After he went through the whole blood test etc ended up no charge, but guess what happens every time he gets pulled up now ? Out comes the drug test kits.

    They have since switched to coke on the weekends - no fear of it showing up on monday and interfering with their daily work that they need licences for - It hasn't stopped them taking illicit substances like the government would have hoped.

    The whole RDT is supposed to be Roadside Drug Testing, not random drug testing, it's supposed to be used when they have suspicion, unfortunately its not used that way and like some things the police do, has been abused.
    The amount of people testing positive that had something a day or two or three earlier and have no effects from is bullshit. (imagine testing positive to alcohol 3 days later even tho you have no effects still)
    Not to mention the amount of false positives, the time you sit on the side of the road only to test negative on the second test, but still they send the test off for further testing?- What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty? That to me is a case of guilty until proven innocent.

    The whole RDT is a fear mongering idea that has been shown time and time again to not be accurate. Needs to be abolished.

    IF the public are to be tested by such instruments I'd like to see every police officer breath tested and drug tested before they are allowed behind the wheel of a police car each shift. Do you really think that would happen? You'd quickly see this inaccurate form of testing scrapped.
     
    #153 Chondro, Jun 6, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2016
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  4. dawooduck

    dawooduck Pool Room
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    @cold wombat

    See above. Ambiguous policing. False positives. Traffic offence or drug offence ?
     
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  5. crackson

    crackson Addicted Member
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    You let Christians run the nsw gov and police and now your surprised that you are being pressured to live like a Christian or be demonized.

    Fuc* you Baird.
     
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  6. marv hucker

    marv hucker Dedicated Member

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    Let alone the armed forces. Wouldn't have anyone left.
     
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  7. ladycamper

    ladycamper Dedicated Member
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    Because it's really more about punishing drug use and more grist for the mill of the prison industrial complex, and adds to the coercive power of a police state.

    Why aren't the police tested much more frequently and randomly? They are allowed to exceed speed limits even by more than 45kmh, Avoid other traffic laws under pursuit or urgent duty conditions, routinely carry arms and other dangerous weapons upon their person, and have extensive powers to use dangerous force even when a suspect of a non traffic or non violent matter tries to evade capture? By way of background, UK Police usually don't carry arms upon their person and have a genuinely independent body for oversight and review of complaints of corruption or excessive force cases, here they're "investigated" by their brothers in blue.
     
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  8. crackson

    crackson Addicted Member
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    Works fine in Ballarat.
     
  9. wolly

    wolly Dedicated Member

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    what. permit holders driving around the village at night drunk?... that never happens
     
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  10. skinavy

    skinavy Dedicated Member

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    Might suprise you to know that we have random urianalysis in the defence forces, along with RBT, at any time. I've had two sailors eased from the navy for drugs and a number charged under Defence Force Discipline Act for being over the BAC limit at work (which is 0.02). I didn't even break a sweat about ending their careers. I've got zero tolerance for either drug use, due to the security implications, or alcohol abuse due to the work performance issues working in military aviation.

    In respect to drug use, Junior ranks might get a once only warning for "experimentation". Officers and SNCOs will have their enlistment terminated. Regardless it is an automatic loss of security clearance from the initial screening test coming back positive. The test used is a urine test and will also pick up commonly abused prescription drugs, so if not on your medical file as a script, is treated the same as illegal drugs. As of today it is also an offence under the DFDA (Disobeying a lawful order) to smoke in a public place if in uniform.
     
    #160 skinavy, Jun 6, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2016
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  11. ladycamper

    ladycamper Dedicated Member
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    The military is not only charged with running a highly secure organisation, but with aircraft, weaponry and the need for military business to be kept secret from information being found by the enemy. It has unique requirements of security, secrecy, order and discipline and is able to develop its own rules and standards to uphold its expectations. Of course something that is a trifling issue in wider society has different implications in the military, and may need to be treated differently to the rest of us.
     
  12. sly_karma

    sly_karma Part of the Furniture
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    Sounds to me like a legal test of the roadside drug testing will see it tossed out. Roadside testing is to catch impairment the same as RBT and get those drivers off the road. If it can't differentiate between past use and current impairment then it should be gone.
     
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  13. marv hucker

    marv hucker Dedicated Member

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    My anecdotal experience (a couple of kids from uni signed up as naval engineers)... you're not catching all of them, not by a long shot.
     
  14. Chondro

    Chondro Dedicated Member
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    This. It wont be tho.
    If you actually look at the figures of positive tests that are reported when they do a "blitz" the figures are very high.
    Drug use is very common within Australia, Persecution isn't the answer.
    What they don't tell you tho, is how many where false positive tests, or how many came back negative after the final stages of testing.
     
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  15. Chondro

    Chondro Dedicated Member
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    Agreed. Drug use is rife in the armed forces, I don't have a problem with it tho. The guys do a good job with what they do
     
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  16. telecrag

    telecrag Part of the Furniture
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    Test the pollies, before they are allowed to make any decisions for us at all. You will mostly pick up alcohol and prescription I reckon, but still, wtf do they think they are doing?

    The AFP are tested, including civilians.

    But I think anyone going into a combat situation should be hopped up on performance enhancers, whatever you need. Though these days, do they get tested after war like athletes? Oh Im sorry, Australia is disqualified, ISIS win!
     
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  17. skinavy

    skinavy Dedicated Member

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    And if these individuals know of drug use by either their peers or their subordinates(or even superiors) they have a duty to report it and if they don't maybe they should reconsider what it actually means to be an officer and if they want to be there. Like I said if I become aware of someone using they get zero sympathy and will be looking for a new employer.

    The current testing regime is 25% of ADF each year. Alongside there are not so random tests. Do I think that the ADF is clean? No of course not. Do I think drug use is significantly lower than in wider society? Yes. For example RAN testing results for 13/14 (taken from Defence.gov.au) were 1938 tests conducted with 8 positive tests, of which 3 were discharged (other 5 were pending decision when the brief went to senate estimates). If you took 2000 random people off the street , with an average age of late 20s I think it would be a significantly different result.
     
    #167 skinavy, Jun 7, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2016
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  18. skinavy

    skinavy Dedicated Member

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    Tell that to the Canadian army patrol that was on allied firing range in Afghanistan that was attacked by the USN F/A18 pilot using amphetamines... I'm sure they'd agree with that....
     
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  19. DbSki

    DbSki Part of the Furniture
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    It amusing how every ill deed is blamed on drugs or alcohol, its never inattention and plain incompetence and stupidity there is an abundance of, it must have bene the drugs that did it.
     
  20. DbSki

    DbSki Part of the Furniture
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    It makes a great escape goat because it relieves any responsibility from their superiors who should have detected their stupidity and ego driven incompetence but failed to, so if they blame the drugs no-one questions their ability to cull the bad ones during training.
     
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  21. DbSki

    DbSki Part of the Furniture
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    The flaw in this is the amphetamines are a performance enhancer that increases performance and reactions and thought process, that's what it was created for, and it is only when abused to the degree the person lacks sleep that it becomes a problem.
    So did the pilot have inadequate sleep before the event, and if so how was that not detected by his superiors or fellow pilots, and if not and he had proper spleen beforehand then it wasn't the amphetamines that did it.
     
  22. marv hucker

    marv hucker Dedicated Member

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    Can you take any decent amount of amphetamines and not lack sleep? The two go hand in hand, the ability to prolong being awake is why the military (and interstate truckies) have turned to them in the first place.
     
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  23. sly_karma

    sly_karma Part of the Furniture
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    I dunno about that, sooner or later someone with lots of money and lots to lose will mount a major legal challenge against their flaky RDT conviction. I know Australia lacks a charter of rights but nonetheless you have a high court in place to deal with shaky legislation. If it's as flawed as it sounds, it'll get chucked.
     
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  24. DbSki

    DbSki Part of the Furniture
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    If you continue to take it on a binge but if you don't then you'll fall asleep pretty fast when it wears off.
    Its not like you can take a massive dose to make it last longer, that just kills you or close to it.
    LSD on the other hand, take a large enough dose once and you might never come down.
     
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  25. Chondro

    Chondro Dedicated Member
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    I've lost faith in the australian court system.
    Some people can get up to 40 charges, and still not go to jail, get a slap on the wrist and say behave dont do it again, heres a good behaviour, Yet others can get 1 simple charge for a moment of maddness and go to jail for a long time?

    And the fact that the QLD VLAD laws , south australian anti association laws etc are all even condemned by human rights groups as unconstitutional, these where brought to and challenged by deep pockets, and no result.
    Governments don't admit they are wrong
     
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  26. ladycamper

    ladycamper Dedicated Member
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    Have seen this, though
    Usually I see people will be sentenced either just right or too harshly, unless the status of the victim means there's little outrage, or its an affluent defendant, then there may be leniency.
     
  27. Chondro

    Chondro Dedicated Member
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    Must be different to the courts up here.
    If you are Aboriginal, a drug addict, or claim to have had a bad upbringing, chances are youll get a few slaps on the wrist before going to jail.
    I've seen ice dealers whom know what they are doing is wrong, get slaps on the wrist.
    Others whom claim to have had a rough upbringing getting 30-40 burglery charges and still not going to jail, burglery is pre meditated, you don't really find yourself accidently standing in someones house taking their possessions.

    Systems a joke
     
  28. ladycamper

    ladycamper Dedicated Member
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    With any decent amount "ice" of reasonable purity (a standard street "hit" of around 0.1g) you will always lack sleep and not only be up all night easily if taking it in the evening. I have also seen, directly, it (rarely) used by interstate truckies. Source: previous, though not recent, direct knowledge of its effects, also being affected before a four hour ascent of the staircase spur to the summit cairn carrying a loaded pack after being up all night the evening before going to Mountain Creek.
     
  29. ladycamper

    ladycamper Dedicated Member
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    At home I drive cars regularly but don't have a car.......the testing regime is alarming to anyone who wants to keep their licence and avoid harassment from authorities based not on their impairment but which is geared toward getting them for illicit drug use. Like those you know who sought out a drug that's not tested for I found the same when I want to unwind or party, like a couple of times a month. Something whose effects don't last beyond 24 hours and which is gone in around a couple of days. Opioids fit my desires in this case.
     
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  30. FlatLander

    FlatLander Active Member

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    I have it on god authority (yesterday) that a certain mountain station will be manned for part of the time, then covered by on-call situation the remainder of the time. So seems that it will not be business as usual!

    I am assuming this will be the case for all Vic resorts
     
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  31. currawong

    currawong Old And Crusty
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    I think the key is whether they will be on the mountain but not manning the station. That is what I heard and think is ok. The difficulty is if they are not on the mountain so response time is in hours
     
  32. FlatLander

    FlatLander Active Member

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    no Currawong, not on mountain. covered by as needs basis by on-call staff from off mtn stations
     
  33. currawong

    currawong Old And Crusty
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    That is not what I heard would be the case at fc. There was a definite statement that there would be police on the mountain 24/7, but the station may not be open. Of course the situation could have changed.
     
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  34. ladycamper

    ladycamper Dedicated Member
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    How does that work if the road closes in a landslide?
     
  35. Stiffler

    Stiffler Active Member

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    Well the rest of "us" are generally in charge of 1tonne of metal passing within cm's of other people with a combined potential impact speed of over 200km/hr, I'd like to think there were mechanisms in place to ensure that drugs or alcohol were not also part of that equation!
     
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  36. skinavy

    skinavy Dedicated Member

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    Complete break down of society until the Police manage to make through on horse back....
     
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  37. ladycamper

    ladycamper Dedicated Member
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    I'd like to think that we have some liberties left, and not to be compelled to incriminate the self......but knew all along the numerous reasons why our political establishment opposed a bill of rights.

    Without a reliable means of determining impairment I say we abolish mandatory roadside testing for drugs by introducing a law that there is no sanction if a driver refuses to provide a sample if asked.
     
  38. FlatLander

    FlatLander Active Member

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    exactly
     
  39. FlatLander

    FlatLander Active Member

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    Not sure about FC Currawong, although looks like its definitely the case at another resort, although I assume all resorts would be the same
     
  40. skinavy

    skinavy Dedicated Member

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    Well what would, probably, one or two police officers (which is about all FC would have) do in this case? Make some phone calls and put up some traffic barriers so no one drives into the debris at speed. Yes there may be a problem if any crime occurs at FC while the officers can't get there. But it is a bit of a stretch to have a landslide closes the road on the same night a serious crime occurs and thus the miscreants get away with it. Landslides are pretty rare events.

    Thredbo doesn't have full time police, if something occurs at night and their not up there, they travel from Jindy.
     
  41. crackson

    crackson Addicted Member
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    No, they wait for the robbers to drive through jindy.

    Budget cuts.
     
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  42. currawong

    currawong Old And Crusty
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    Most likely they would have to come from Wang. Mt Beauty isn't staffed around the clock. That's a lot different to police getting to Thredbo from Jindy.

    It's not really about major crime. Much of it is about police being the only ones with authority to control people who are violent or our of control. Police are sometimes needed before doctors or paramedics can do their job. Even noise control needs police if people are uncooperative.

    Landslides don't happen that often, but at FC maybe once every 2-3 years. Also there can be closures because trees are down.
     
  43. ladycamper

    ladycamper Dedicated Member
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    It's a stealth attack on drug use dressed up as a public safety measure.
     
  44. currawong

    currawong Old And Crusty
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    After the missing child incident this week, people jumped on the opportunity to stress the importance of police being available on the mountain to ensure a timely response
     
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  45. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here
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    I'd like to get the contract for that, would they be vertical?
     
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  46. Charlie

    Charlie Still the most depraved poster here
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    No police presence on mountains?
    There goes any hope of a Crispy Creme outlet!
     
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  47. cold wombat

    cold wombat Twitter Contributer
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    Be thankful for small mercies.
     
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  48. ladycamper

    ladycamper Dedicated Member
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    Removing police may have reduced crime figures, as many people probably couldn't be bothered reporting things without a physical presence of them. All industries seek to create and make more work for themselves.
     
  49. ladycamper

    ladycamper Dedicated Member
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    Reasonable suspicion is open to infinite manipulation and many an accused has seen things in a police statement that are inconsistent with the events on the day of their arrest. Half of them can't be bothered fighting it because they get a lawyer (provided if they can't afford one) who CBF or because half the time if it seems half plausible the police will always be believed especially if the search uncovers evidence of some trivial offence.
     
  50. Ubiquitous Steve

    Ubiquitous Steve Addicted Member
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    ahh just hope no tourist :emoji_bus:bus goes of roadway /////:thumbs: Suppose SES could cope with that event all by itself??:emoji_ambulance::emoji_ambulance::emoji_ambulance::emoji_ambulance:

    perhaps we could introduce martial:emoji_cop: law in Jindy......just over the proclaimed winter period?Too many dodgy:emoji_hear_no_evil::emoji_see_no_evil::emoji_speak_no_evil: characters getting around in those NSW Alps!!:emoji_crying_cat_face:
     
    #200 Ubiquitous Steve, Jul 12, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
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