1. There's more to this forum than meets the eye!

    We have a vibrant community here conversing about all sorts of non-snow topics such as music, sport, politics and technology. Simply register to reveal all our Après topics.

    NOTE: This notice may be closed.

    Dismiss Notice

New Resort for NSW/ACT

Discussion in 'Snow Talk' started by kiter, Sep 8, 2018.

  1. kiter

    kiter One of Us

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2002
    Messages:
    938
    Likes Received:
    550
    Location:
    Newcastle
    It is quite clear that the demand is there that would justify a new resort in NSW/ACT areas . There have been ideas for something around Oberon NSW (there is a thread somewhere already about this ) but as its not a destination for snowsports that easily springs to most peoples mind so even if a resort could be established there with man made snow it might not catch on with the numbers required .
    Im thinking closer to Canberra Mt Ginini, Mt Franklin or Mt Bimberi could be possible . they are high and close to a large market but access looks difficult with lots of winding bad roads What about twin valleys to the east of Thredbo ? It regularly comes up in discussion with thredbo even considering it over the years .There is a huge amount of high terrain there and with Gondola or chair access from the valley and surface lifts at altitude with a regular shuttle running from Jindy, skitube and Thredbo only access, No new car park or cars . It works elsewhere in the world and should do here if designed properly.
    PleaseDont give me parks will say no way . They have just extended Charlotte pass (terrible access and a boutique area )lease with demands for upgrades and more development why not in an area that is a day area like Selwyn and Blue cow . Thredbo and Perisher need competition and the demand is there .
     
    CraigT, Annabuzzy, nfip and 1 other person like this.
  2. Seth

    Seth Pool Room Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2000
    Messages:
    42,820
    Likes Received:
    22,491
    Location:
    The Higher Ground
    LEL
     
    The Plowking likes this.
  3. teckel

    teckel Not a Loser Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2004
    Messages:
    47,334
    Likes Received:
    18,865
    Location:
    Narbethong, Vic
    It's something the government has to consider seriously. As they are so intent on increasing our population, they also have to increase recreational areas. If the existing ones are full, they have to allow for new ones.
     
    Alleve, CraigT, Chaeron and 1 other person like this.
  4. Bogong

    Bogong Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    12,792
    Likes Received:
    4,424
    Location:
    More woke than thou.
    I'd love to see a new downhill ski area in NSW, but I reckon the enviromentals would kick up such a stink that it would be "politically impossible". However if we assume they are somehow muted or distracted by another political issue, then here are some possibilities:
    • Twin Valleys. It's been widely discussed for the good reasons that it has good vertical, is close to plenty of accommodation and is mostly south and east facing, so it wouldn't get too much sun.
    • Main Range. A nascent resort developed there in the early fifties with two ski lifts (Albina T-bar and Northcote Nutcracker) as well as two ski lodges and three nearby mountain huts. But when an avalanche demolished Kunama Lodge and the Northcote Tow literally exploded a few weeks later, that was the end of new developments. Later Parks condemned Albina Lodge and demolished all the huts except Seamans. But it would be great to rebuild the lifts and lodges. The Golden Eagle run around there has always been the country's premier speed skiing venue.
    • The Mt Franklin - Ginini area once had five ski lifts and is very close to Canberra. But to reinstate it would require a vastly improved road or an access gondola.
    • I've never understood why three out of the four NSW resorts are bunched so tightly together when in Victoria, Tasmania and New Zealand, the resorts are far more widely dispersed. Is there any scope for something on the east side of the Snowy Mountains further north than the Main Range?
     
  5. Myazma

    Myazma One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    May 10, 2009
    Messages:
    3,275
    Likes Received:
    5,239
    Location:
    Jindi
    TW is shit, look elsewhere
     
  6. Marty_McSly

    Marty_McSly Staying the **** at home. Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2011
    Messages:
    9,869
    Likes Received:
    12,762
    Location:
    Hunter Valley Whine Country, NSW
    The Hunter Valley mines could pool their overburden dumps to create an artificial hill up to 3000m high, 2 hours from Sydney.
     
    malas1, soda, rollyz and 5 others like this.
  7. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2006
    Messages:
    18,087
    Likes Received:
    35,731
    Location:
    Blue Mtns, 1100M.
  8. VSG

    VSG Crayon Master Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1998
    Messages:
    69,413
    Likes Received:
    6,097
    Location:
    Port Macquarie NSW
    This old chestnut.
     
  9. Tanuki

    Tanuki Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    11,068
    Likes Received:
    7,178
    Geography.
     
    VSG likes this.
  10. VSG

    VSG Crayon Master Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1998
    Messages:
    69,413
    Likes Received:
    6,097
    Location:
    Port Macquarie NSW
    I would vote for Twin Valleys.
     
  11. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2006
    Messages:
    18,087
    Likes Received:
    35,731
    Location:
    Blue Mtns, 1100M.
    Already open and skiing well,
    Free lines for all. :whistle:
     
    Alleve, rollyz, sastrugi and 9 others like this.
  12. skinavy

    skinavy One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2001
    Messages:
    2,589
    Likes Received:
    3,386
    Location:
    Canberra, ACT
    Mt Franklin used to have skiing, including a rope tow and accommodation, Mt Franklin Chalet. Original home of YMCA (now Brindabella) Ski Club.
     
    VSG likes this.
  13. Bogong

    Bogong Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    12,792
    Likes Received:
    4,424
    Location:
    More woke than thou.
    I found this list of ski lifts in the area

    Mt Franklin. Nutcracker. Canberra Alpine Club 1957 - late 60's. Brumby Tow. Operated on Little Ginini, Slalom Run, Nursery Run
    Mt Franklin. Hook Tow. Canberra Alpine Club. 1965 only. Austin A40 Tow. Operated on Slalom Run
    Little Ginini. ? John Dowling 1959 - 1960 . Probably moved to Mt Selwyn
    Mt Ginini . ? RMC Ski Club 1957 - mid 60's
     
    rollyz and nfip like this.
  14. BlueHue

    BlueHue One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2003
    Messages:
    2,520
    Likes Received:
    1,646
    Location:
    Sydney
    Just because I can't help myself. I've been wondering about this new found demand. The resorts and transport infrastructure are clearly strained at the moment. A seemingly little known fact is that Charlotte Pass also own Selwyn which has a 200ha lease, only 60ha of which is developed. The other 140ha is small scale terrain and obviously almost all below 1600m which is not a great prospect if our seasons are to become leaner in the future.

    My first never going to happen idea is for them to negotiate a deal with NPWS to transfer that 140ha of undeveloped lease area to another location in northern KNP. A quick google maps and interrogation of NSW six maps shows me Mt Morgan tops out at 1870m giving you a similar vert as Falls Creek if you set the bottom at 1600m and has an area of almost exactly 140ha on its south and easterly faces above 1600m. It is also close to the KNP boundary with private land nearby at the base of the mountain between 1100-1200m and a (somewhat) crude road corridor already in place with no need for building windy steep road inside KNP. Put a day lodge and most of the visitor facilities down there to limit impact in KNP with a big ass lift for access to the mountain. Being private land there may be a chance of developing a small village without national park planning constraints (although existing environmental planning regs will still make it a challenge.). Two other advantages of the village/day lodge being at the base outside of KNP is the big ass lift provides considerable summer tourism options, particularly lift accessed mountain biking with a vertical of roughly 700m (easily more than Thredbo) and it is only about 30km from Adaminaby with no high mountain roads required to get there. This means that if it was developed by Charlotte Pass owners by putting to use the unused lease area at Selwyn, then Selwyn and Mount Morgan would be on same lift pass (and Charlotte Pass as well could be included) and both easily accessible from Adaminaby (assuming the dirt road to base of Mt Morgan was upgraded substantially). Suddenly the Snowies has a second off mtn tourism hub to take the pressure of the Jindabyne region and in the process you give the Adaminaby area a good shot in the arm, particularly with its existing good summer tourism options around Lake Eucumbene, Yarragonbilly/Kiandra areas.

    The second idea still involves Selwyns unused 140ha lease area doing exactly as others have mentioned, Twin Valleys. This time though as an extension of Charlottes and in the process giving a second access option to Charlottes by putting a big ass lift out of Thredbo Valley through the new Twin Valleys and on over to Charlotte Pass.It would have to be a funitel or something similar to cope with the winds and would provide the lift access to Twin Valleys from Charlotte's as the terrain from Stillwell to Twin Valleys does not lend itself to lifting and the distance is more than most realise. If Thredbo and Charlotte's could strike some kind of deal (as if), Thredbo could actually provide the base of the Funitel in the village. If you draw a straight line extended on from the top of Thredbos proposed Merritts gondola to Charlotte Pass village you pass just to the east of the highest point at Twin Valleys and Mt Stillwell making locations for two top mid stations near the summits of Charlotte's two areas with lifts. This, along with the existing snowcat from Perisher would then mean Thredbo/Charlotte/Perisher could potentially be linked providing the potential for a European style ski circuit if the resorts could get together to create some creative pass options (as if, but I'm thinking regional cooperation to create a mountain tourist destination beyond anything Australia has seen before). I'm imagining a blue sky fast groomer kind of day, start with a few fast laps top to bottom at Thredbo on freshly groomed Supertrail/World Cup etc, catch funitel to top of Twins Valleys for a hot chocolate/drink break at summit restaurant, a few more fast laps at Twin Valleys before heading over to Charlottes, offloading at top of Stillwell for ski down to chalet for lunch. A couple more runs after lunch at Charlottes before jumping on snowcat to Eyre/Perisher (maybe the snowcat could have on demand stops added in out wide off Guthries near where village road meets Kosci rd and at Eyre - six maps tells me this wipes 3-4km off snow cat trip reducing travel time making the whole thing more feasible), then work your way from Eyre back to Perisher. Pizza/beer/diiner at aldos/pub/Sundeck wherever, skitube down to Bullocks and shuttle back to Thredbo. Of course the risk (or advantage depending on your perspective) is the whole thing, particularly Thredbo might just swallow Charlotte Pass up and we'll end up with two massive ski resorts and no places left in NSW with laid back skiing vibe. It would probably also send Jindabyne's winter crowds through the roof, but skiing wise it offers much better options than the Mount Morgan/Selwyn/Adaminaby options and just think of what you could do mountain biking wise with the Thredbo/Charlotte Pass funitel!

    Ok question just to see who actually bothered to read all of that. What is the current Spencers Creek snow depths reading :p
     
    Alleve, Tanuki, malas1 and 6 others like this.
  15. Billy_Buttons

    Billy_Buttons Que Sera, Sera Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2011
    Messages:
    9,036
    Likes Received:
    8,004
    Location:
    Normanhurst/Jindabyne
    funitel
     
    Tanuki likes this.
  16. Telemark Phat

    Telemark Phat Pass the butter Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2008
    Messages:
    19,788
    Likes Received:
    17,329
    Location:
    Jindabyne
    We have heritage feral horses, anything seems possible these days.

    The Dept of Planning decides what developments can happen in the Park, not the Office of Environment and Heritage (which NPWS Falls under).

    If a government wanted to allow a ski resort to happen it wouldn't be hard. They would only need to add a resort area to the KNP plan of management and the Alpine SEPP. The most difficult thing for the developer would be meeting the requirements of the Biodiversity conservation Act, which requires ecological offsets for developments in high value ecologies. There isn't much unprotected Alpine or sub Alpine land to offset with.
     
    Ziggy, rollyz and skifree like this.
  17. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    42,487
    Likes Received:
    33,728
    Location:
    the sunny illawarra
    There's a Lot for sale in the upper Gungarlin at the moment - I recon offsets would be worth more than the grazing!
     
    Chaeron, Bogong and Telemark Phat like this.
  18. art

    art One of Us

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2004
    Messages:
    490
    Likes Received:
    965
    Just did a quick search for these and didn't find anything. Got any links?
     
  19. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 1998
    Messages:
    29,068
    Likes Received:
    25,295
    Location:
    Middle Oz
    I can’t believe it’s not included in the Snowy 2.0 package.
     
    Tanuki, rollyz and CraigT like this.
  20. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2000
    Messages:
    42,487
    Likes Received:
    33,728
    Location:
    the sunny illawarra
    https://www.domain.com.au/jindabyne-nsw-2627-2014083323

    I did my honours thesis back in the dark ages on one of the bogs on the block.

    It’s high up - Brooks Ridge and Snowy Gap are on the lot.
    There is a hand marked topo in the pictures as part of my link.

    Great spot.
     
  21. Kopite

    Kopite One of Us

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2017
    Messages:
    546
    Likes Received:
    751
    Location:
    North Curly
    If it were to happen in the Jindabyne region then it would need to come with mandatory development of affordable (arf!) accomodation for both tourists and people expected to staff it.
     
    Lady Penelope likes this.
  22. kiter

    kiter One of Us

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2002
    Messages:
    938
    Likes Received:
    550
    Location:
    Newcastle
    A good read and good ideas
    Spencers ck sept 7 2018 211.2cm
     
    Tanuki likes this.
  23. DidSurfNowSki

    DidSurfNowSki One of them Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2014
    Messages:
    10,243
    Likes Received:
    20,774
    Location:
    Canberra, ACT
    Just need to re-open the restaurant ;)
     
  24. chicski

    chicski A Local Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    9,847
    Likes Received:
    18,038
    Read the last paragraph. Otherwise blah blah blah :p
     
  25. Tanuki

    Tanuki Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    11,068
    Likes Received:
    7,178
    Paragraphs
     
  26. telecrag

    telecrag Old n' Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2007
    Messages:
    30,624
    Likes Received:
    43,370
    I worked at Corin Forest in its second year (newest OZ resort, and ironically first with snowmaking). The owners had grand plans, involving Mt Ginini, but the government wouldn't pay for a road upgrade, and electricity supply, otherwise we would have something the size of Selwyn (roughly) very close to the capital city. The site they did get was marginal, but plans were to extend up to Billy Billy Rocks, with one chair, and offer carpet skiing in summer. However again the government would not help out with upgrading the power, so now it is what it is.
     
    nfip likes this.
  27. VSG

    VSG Crayon Master Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1998
    Messages:
    69,413
    Likes Received:
    6,097
    Location:
    Port Macquarie NSW
    I remember all that. Spoke to the owners. Mid 1980s. Skied there too.. a few times.
     
    telecrag likes this.
  28. VSG

    VSG Crayon Master Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1998
    Messages:
    69,413
    Likes Received:
    6,097
    Location:
    Port Macquarie NSW
    1980

     
    malas1, Ziggy, kiter and 2 others like this.
  29. VSG

    VSG Crayon Master Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1998
    Messages:
    69,413
    Likes Received:
    6,097
    Location:
    Port Macquarie NSW
    One of my dreams, connecting Twin Valleys with Charlotte Pass. 2004







     
    #29 VSG, Sep 9, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2018
    Ziggy, Zeroz, nfip and 3 others like this.
  30. ecowain

    ecowain One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    2,242
    Likes Received:
    3,594
    Location:
    Mount Victoria, NSW
    Morgan with New Yaouk as the hub!
     
    VSG and Snow Blowey like this.
  31. VSG

    VSG Crayon Master Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1998
    Messages:
    69,413
    Likes Received:
    6,097
    Location:
    Port Macquarie NSW

    hheh... snow is an issue. Rain shadow. low rainfall. infrastructure for snowmaking??
     
  32. VSG

    VSG Crayon Master Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1998
    Messages:
    69,413
    Likes Received:
    6,097
    Location:
    Port Macquarie NSW
    Morgan, Half Moon, next to ACT. Northern Kosci NP.



     

    Attached Files:

    rollyz, malas1, Bogong and 1 other person like this.
  33. VSG

    VSG Crayon Master Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1998
    Messages:
    69,413
    Likes Received:
    6,097
    Location:
    Port Macquarie NSW
    The broader context. blue arrow marks Mt Morgan

     
    rollyz and malas1 like this.
  34. skifree

    skifree A disciple of the blessed avi giraffe Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 1998
    Messages:
    29,068
    Likes Received:
    25,295
    Location:
    Middle Oz
    Excellent to see some crayon back on maps, does look a bit neat and tidy but.
     
  35. ecowain

    ecowain One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2003
    Messages:
    2,242
    Likes Received:
    3,594
    Location:
    Mount Victoria, NSW
    Lack of snow never daunted Aussie snowsports lovers before!

    (I agree though, unless things changed, cover would be very limited. But imagine the bustle of New Yaouk!)

    And it would keep TV lift free!!!
     
  36. Bogong

    Bogong Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    12,792
    Likes Received:
    4,424
    Location:
    More woke than thou.
    Well the skiing in the South Australian Mallee might give one well known resort a run for its money. :out:
    [​IMG]
     
    Tanuki likes this.
  37. The Plowking

    The Plowking Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2000
    Messages:
    18,064
    Likes Received:
    11,135
    Location:
    Bonbeach, Vic
    It's like the Lifts in avalanche gully thing at Hotham.
    No!
     
    hongomania likes this.
  38. VSG

    VSG Crayon Master Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1998
    Messages:
    69,413
    Likes Received:
    6,097
    Location:
    Port Macquarie NSW
    So, how about Bindo and Trickett, @rollyz ?
     
    ecowain likes this.
  39. rollyz

    rollyz One of Us

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2005
    Messages:
    1,503
    Likes Received:
    383
    Location:
    my own little world
    I like the idea of Twin Valleys. Also, the private land at Youak has potential as being the same elevation as Selwyn. Other places around Canberra are good too. Main Range other side of Guthega should be opened up. Mount J, Round Mountain and other old Northern NP slopes. Bindo and Trickett do have their days of natural snow each year, snowmaking is a must, but 2 hour trip from Sydney could make it viable. Bindo is cute, name and geography, state forest and closer to Sydney. Trickett has the advantage of private land (do what you like) and has a natural spring water supply.
     
    VSG likes this.
  40. Myazma

    Myazma One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

    Joined:
    May 10, 2009
    Messages:
    3,275
    Likes Received:
    5,239
    Location:
    Jindi
    The lack of trees in the main drainage gully below the big face of TWs would suggest it is one big avi trap. The flats across towards CP are wind and whiteout prone with a bit of uphill to get past Stillwell.
     
  41. kiter

    kiter One of Us

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2002
    Messages:
    938
    Likes Received:
    550
    Location:
    Newcastle
  42. VSG

    VSG Crayon Master Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1998
    Messages:
    69,413
    Likes Received:
    6,097
    Location:
    Port Macquarie NSW
    aaaah Let's see. Wonder where the spring is? As much if not a lot more vertical than Selwyn. Or a lot of Falls Creek for that matter.

     
  43. VSG

    VSG Crayon Master Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1998
    Messages:
    69,413
    Likes Received:
    6,097
    Location:
    Port Macquarie NSW
  44. VSG

    VSG Crayon Master Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1998
    Messages:
    69,413
    Likes Received:
    6,097
    Location:
    Port Macquarie NSW
  45. VSG

    VSG Crayon Master Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1998
    Messages:
    69,413
    Likes Received:
    6,097
    Location:
    Port Macquarie NSW
    Water. Where will you get it? For snowmaking.
     
  46. sbm_

    sbm_ One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2017
    Messages:
    2,044
    Likes Received:
    4,339
    Development above the treeline on the Main Range will never happen again. Firstly, the weather is just too bad. You like the idea of Kunama Hut or Albina Hut, but forget that people used to be trapped inside them for days by blizzards, eating rationed tinned food. Secondly, the conservation of our true alpine is too high.

    Thirdly, there is already a resort nestled in a central position on the Main Range, offering sheltered skiing in bad weather and fairly accessible day trips to the cirques and western faces in good weather. Charlotte Pass. You want to do a hut trip on the Main Range, you can do it right now, book in at CP for a week.

    I think Round Mountain is an underrated option here. It's got a road already and used to have a tow. Twin Valleys could be the Aussie Craigieburn. Cut a foot track in through the forest, a hut, and some tows - the problem is, the sort of people into that, are already just going to the NZ club fields!
     
  47. VSG

    VSG Crayon Master Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1998
    Messages:
    69,413
    Likes Received:
    6,097
    Location:
    Port Macquarie NSW
    Yes. have pointed that out several times, over several decades.


    Has the oversnow improved? is it a highway robbery pricing arrangement still? I guess a week flattens the pain of getting there. And can I park my car at Perisher to catch oversnow? or do I catch Tube? more money. :)

    Past Cabramurra, on way to Khanchoban? ?
     
  48. sbm_

    sbm_ One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2017
    Messages:
    2,044
    Likes Received:
    4,339
    Yeah it's still a rip. Cheaper than financing a new ski resort or club though!

    I have fantasised with some friends about somehow getting a cheap secondhand snowmobile from north America and running it up the CP road haha.

    Yep. Right next to a sealed road. I suspect it would get more natural snow too, a lot of these areas on the Canberra side look to be in rain shadows.
     
    malas1 likes this.
  49. FlatLander

    FlatLander Addicted

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    695
    Likes Received:
    184
    Sorry I disagree, where is this new demand. The fact is that our current ski fields are only near capacity for a few weekends during August. All other times they are pretty much ghost towns during ski season.

    Is this new demand from site seeing/snow play day visitors - if so provide additional facilities away from current resort main areas, thus removing the burden on transport within the resort.

    Is this new demand from increased skiing/boarding visitors - if so where are the numbers to back this up. Resorts are getting better technology/systems in place to "count" visitors, so the numbers will improve, should resorts want them to!!!!

    Change the pricing for midweek and shoulder seasons to shift the visitor load burden from the weekends.

    Most resorts (Vic) have within current resort boundaries additional terrain that could be lifted. So question why the lift cos arent installing new lift infrastructure when there is an apparent need. Well because they dont have to, they are still making money , if there is snow on the ground people still come, its only bust those few weekends through August.
     
    sbm_ and malas1 like this.
  50. sbm_

    sbm_ One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2017
    Messages:
    2,044
    Likes Received:
    4,339
    Ooh ooh, I forgot about Whites River as a site for a ski field. It already has a road, power lines and hydro infrastructure so not really wilderness. I'd put the main base around Horse Camp Hut with runs down from the rolling grounds. Arguably as good a site as twin valleys.