New Skis for GF help

Discussion in 'Equipment' started by Shrike, Aug 4, 2018.

  1. Shrike

    Shrike Early Days

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    Hey guys GF has gotten into skiing and now looking at some skis

    http://www.findsports.com.au/p/haga...freeride-ski-boots-bindi/FINDSKI17HAGANX148BB

    Are these any good? Also need to get poles

    GF is 5 foot 4 73kg, only skis in Australia on groomed runs and has been down one blue run

    She is comming upto Hotham with me next weekend and the last weekend in August, also planning for a few weekends in Sep. We will take the boots to Japan in Feb and rent her skis for the 3.5days

    She is eager to come more next year as well so its worth buying gear for her progression. She has had two group lessons and is upto going out to blue runs with a group if she does another one.

    Her goal for next weekend is to spend a day doing summit down to the playground lift and then expand onto some more blue runs on the sunday.

    Any help would be appreciated as I havent skiied in years
     
  2. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty
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    Maybe hold off a little longer on buying skis.

    Buying boots is good, just make sure she understands that a snug fit (over thin socks) is very important and worth paying for, in model and bootfitting. Green run skiers are likely to settle for a boot that is a bit big and that won't help them improve.

    There are often good bargains near the end of season. Maybe look for skis then, or wait till after Japan. By then she will be able to get more out of a better ski. If she is having lessons, try to ask the instructor about skis. Chairlift rides are a good opportunity to get useful info.
     
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  3. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty
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    @CarveMan may have some words of wisdom but I think he's away for a few days
     
  4. crackson

    crackson A Local
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  5. DbSki

    DbSki Part of the Furniture
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    Yeah me too

    I'm still in the 179 Line Prophet 90's
    Great ski in soft stuff and carving groomers etc and ok in moguls but its hard work, on icy moguls its hard slog turning them.

    180 Cm tall, now 78kg a little heavier and just turned 57 not as fit as I was in 2010 when I got them

    Just got a base grind on them and Thursday was sunny and they were great on the groomers carving at warp speed on the summit but down in the woods (outer edge and cow camp) it was chopped hard pack and just wore me out turning them.

    I'm about ready to get a second pair and a little shorter for days like that but not keen to buy new ones, looking for ex demo maybe, around the $500 mark w/bindings.
    176 or maybe shorter to ski down in the woods on hard pack mogul days.
     
  6. bernardski

    bernardski First Runs

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    If you are considering buying boots, you really should go to the best possible boot fitter you have access to and get fitted properly (I am not in the industry, and I am often at pains seeing the sale prices of boots on backcountry.com compared to what you pay here). A good boot fitter will most likely guarantee their work, and fit you with a different boot if they have made a blunder and the fit just fails terribly.

    The money you spend on proper fitting boots with custom footbeds (essential for good fit) will be well worth it. Your partner will not only have feet that are comfortable, she will progress much quicker and the less arguments. Yes it is costly, but well worth it if you are going to ski more than a season. I would highly recommend reading the following article on blistergear as it provides good insight into skiing and what skis should be considered when starting out. Very good reading.

    http://blistergearreview.com/features/skiing-101-safer-skiing-the-case-for-fatter-rockered-skis

    That is my 2 cents worth...
     
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  7. DbSki

    DbSki Part of the Furniture
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    To suggest boot maker cant make a boot that fits peoples feet in 2018 and they all need footbeds is suspect.
    In some cases the foot bed could make the boot fit worse due to the fact the foot bed raises the foot in the boot.
    If you have unusual feet then granted you may need custom foot beds but otherwise Id suggest getting a good boot fitter and make sure they sell you a quality boot that fits your normal feet to begin with.
    The problem seems to be that there are low margins on the boots only and it is hard to know if the boot seller is not just selling foot beds as a more profitable addition to the initial boot sales like car salesmen do by pushing addition to the orginal new cars sales like accessories and under body treatments and paint treatments etc that are a rort in the car trade and if you resist the extras the sale people get all snotty about it because they are not making so much on just the car sale.
    Likewise financing, try to buy a new car with cash and watch the car sales person crack the sads.
     
  8. CarveMan

    CarveMan Pool Room
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    Agree totally on the boots/bootfitting/footbeds but I couldn't disagree more with the blister article.

    It is based on a huge supposition, which is entirely incorrect - that is that most skiers are wanting to get out into the steep and deep, whereas most skiers I encounter, which is dozens every day, just want to have a nice time at the snow with their family as a high intermediate on groomed terrain with maybe a few forays off to the side.

    Rockered tips on skis are helpful but the skis we buy for advanced beginners looking to progress, ie their first pair of skis are around 75mm underfoot. Any wider and the edge is too far out from under your foot and you just can't feel those fine feelings that you need when learning to stand on the middle of your ski, turn them with your feet and roll them on to their edge.
     
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  9. linked_recoveries

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    Spend time and money on a decent pair of property-fitted boots. Start that process with a reputable fitter and a decent footbed (off-the-shelf or custom). A good, supportive footbed will change the shape of the foot within the boot a little, meaning the boots should be fitted along with the footbed. The footbeds that are included with boots these days are designed for just one purpose - to be thrown out.

    Buying boots online is hardly ever a success. You'll be selling them at a big loss two days later.

    I know that's the boring answer, but it's the correct answer.

    Rent skis in the meantime. Beginners improve to intermediate status very quickly - a matter of a few days. Buying beginner / low intermediate skis (i.e. shorter with a softer flex) is a waste of money. She'll need better skis in no time. At that point you'll be able to buy a great pair of skis that will work for years.

    Best of luck.
     
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  10. DbSki

    DbSki Part of the Furniture
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    I don't agree.
    To suggest ski boot makers are competent enough to make entire ski boot to a high level of precision but haven't got a clue how to make a bed for the boot just makes no sense.

    I think I might write to boot makers and ask them a few question about this, like.
    "Why do so many boot fitters all tell us we need to buy an after market foot bed and why cant you manufacture a boot that doesn't require buyers to spend an extra for an after market foot bed ?'
    "And if you claim we don't need an after market foot bed for your product then what proof can you provide to substantiate that ?"
     
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  11. MarzNC

    MarzNC Hard Yards

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    You got me curious so I actually read the article. Certainly doesn't apply to the GF of interest to the OP in Post #1. Article is from 2011 about the advantages of fat skis with rocker for deep powder. Not conditions on groomers in Australia or Japan. Doesn't think a beginner will enjoy heading out into the deep stuff.

    Renting skis only as a beginner is always an option. Certainly better than renting boots too. Are season leases available? But to really encourage the GF, there is something to be said to investing in a pair of skis now. Doesn't have to be the latest and greatest. Can sell later when it's time to upgrade. Avoiding having to rent every time makes for more time for fun on local ski trips.
     
  12. MarzNC

    MarzNC Hard Yards

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    Makes me think of why some ski jackets and ski pants don't have enough pockets. I have an old Marmot jacket that I would happily replace with a newer one but they don't make that version any more. It has lots of pockets, internal and external. But that would up the price. So they dropped it from the lineup.

    Putting better footbeds in ski boots would increase the price. Newbies buying ski boots are usually pretty price conscious. When I bought my first pair of 4-buckle boots from a boot fitter (near small hills, not big mountains, replacing obsolete boots), I wanted decent recreational boots to use when skiing with a little kid just learning. Was willing to add $25 to the price for a generic footbed but no interest in paying any more when only skiing 10-15 days a season. When I found used boots for my niece (under $100, barely used, better than rentals), they were a decent fit but not perfect. A boot fitter set up heat moldable footbeds that cost $40 that made a huge difference, especially for one foot. She probably won't ski more than a few days a season for quite a while since she's in grad school.
     
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  13. DbSki

    DbSki Part of the Furniture
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    The price point is the other issue.

    Last pair of boots I spent just under $1k, they were great and no issues, I bought the footbed hype and spent over $200 more believing that would be even better.
    First set ended badly so went to another fitter and got a second second set of foot beds at about $150 that were better and still have them to date 7 years later.

    Problem with the beds though is they raised my foot in the boots a bit so that ended up having to get the shells blown in spots to accommodate the width of my feet which fixed that but also caused an issue with one old broken ankle bone that is now higher and too close to the cuff hinge and rubs up.

    In the end I really could have just skipped the beds since I had no issues with the boots to begin with a spent top dollar buying them and avoided all the other issues introduced by raising the foot with beds..

    My skiing technique has changed a lot since from old school to more even footed carving and no shin bashing or monstering in my boots anymore so I'm looking at a new set of boots.

    Ill spend up to $1k again but I'm not going to spend $1k and then $200+ for beds or risk them causing new issues with the new boot off the shelf fit I end up choosing like last time.
    And to limit the boots to $800 so I can afford the extra $200 for beds to keep it under $1K I feel is bad economics and spending the whole $1k on top quality boots would be better spent.

    And boot sellers might be keen to sell everyone foot beds but at the risk of sending the cost over the $1k mark and people not buying new boots at all then it may not be such a good sales point adding $200+ to the price of all of their boots.
    And for those being faced with a bill for $700+ to get $500 boots it could well result in less sales of boots.

    If it was me selling them Id be inclined to say to people who have feet with no real issues that they probably don't need foot beds and thus keep the cost to as minimal as possible hoping that would be more favorable to them buying boots than not, rather than making the cost of every boot I sell instantly $200+ more and end up selling less boots.
    Advising them that if they have a specific foot issue that cant be dealt with by choosing the right boot then they may be faced with the extra cost. of beds
    In shirt, why fix what aint broke and end up selling less boots.

    Like i said above I find it difficult to fathom that boot makers can manufacture precision boots yet not be capable of making boots that don't require after market foot beds.
    From 1960s to 2011 I never had a need for foot beds and on reflection I doubt if I needed them at all and if it was not for everyone saying foot beds are a must have I doubt I ever would have spent the money on them.
     
  14. FatBoyDave

    FatBoyDave One of Us
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    Good foot beds can make a huge difference IMO.
    After skiing for a number of years with off the shelf foot beds I got a custom foot bed and made a huge difference in fine tuning any stance issues and located my foot in the boot so much better.
    I will say that some boot fitters push massively ramped custom foot beds with a really high arch that take up a lot of boot volume, not sure they they do this.... especially as the foot bed is added after you have tried the boot for fit... The only rational I can come up with is to stop toe bang by locating the foot arch (because they've sold you boots that are too big).
    The same effect can be achieved with a much lower volume foot bed (in the correct sized boots).

    As to the original post question. I would go and see the best boot fitter you can find and invest in boots first, don't be too horrified at the cost, a good pair of ski boots can last 200+ ski days. For many people this is a long time...

    Then look at skis, what you ski on in Oz may well be different to what you use in Japan. My only wisdom in picking skis is don't be tempted to buy something that she will "ski into". Progression in skiing is one thing but if your GF is not an aggressive skier now, she will probably never be.... so don't be tempted to get some super stiff hard charging thing, (like I did... :whistle: for my GF).
     
  15. Whatever really

    Whatever really Hard Yards

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    I just spent $1000 on new boots and they fitted pretty good off the shelf, they fitted amazing after a heat mold and I could have skied them forever like that,
    I opted for heat molded Sidas foot beds and it completely transformed the boot.
    The reason why a $1000 boot can’t come with a great footbed is because everyone has different feet, some pronate some have a forward arch and the list goes on.
    If the footbed cases issues with a high volume foot they can grind the foot board down and do other things, I agree not everyone needs it but think the more stable and still you can keep your foot the more control you have.
     
  16. DbSki

    DbSki Part of the Furniture
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    And that is the point I made
    Many people have feet issues but not everyone.
    If the fit is good and there are no issues then I see no reason to insist a $1000 boot should cost $1200+
    And by good fit I mean if the boot is comfortable, I don't buy the idea that a comfortable boot needs more spent on it.
    Or that a foot bed can replace better technique to resolve some other issues.
    A comfortable boot can become uncomfortable because of poor technique and spending the $200+ on lessons might be better served.
     
  17. Whatever really

    Whatever really Hard Yards

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    My technique needs more than $200 but that’s another story
     
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  18. Chillybin

    Chillybin Hard Yards

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    If only this was the case........ and yes I have first hand experience.
     
  19. MarzNC

    MarzNC Hard Yards

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    I don't know prices in Oz ski shops, but would a beginner/intermediate really need to spend $1000 for a first pair of boots? The general recommendation in my home region (near Washington DC) is US$500-600 for good recreational boots from boot fitters that have been highly recommended for 10-20 years. That would be "new old stock" not the current model year.

    Agree that adding a $200+ custom footbed isn't always needed on a first pair of boots. But spending US$25 for a generic footbed to provide some support is worth considering.
     
  20. DbSki

    DbSki Part of the Furniture
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    Hiring is the best option for the first few trips before committing to the sport.
    Its about comfort and beginners are not going to be doing many runs a day.
    Later as the run count increases and they get into moguls the demand on the comfort in the boots increases to warrant spending more on them and by then they will have decided if they are going to keep skiing and will get enough use from the boots to warrant the cost as well.
     
  21. MarzNC

    MarzNC Hard Yards

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    Don't know if the OP is still reading or not, but he started the thread because his GF was ready to commit to skiing more. At that point, buying decent boots that fit well beats continuing to rent boots. My question was whether it's possible to buy recreational boots for a beginner/intermediate for well under the $1000 you mentioned.
     
  22. bernardski

    bernardski First Runs

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    Hi CarveMan, I do agree with your points. I think what I took away from that article was more the notion of ease of skiing when starting out and getting the feel of being on snow with ease of turn initiation to find that edge feeling we all love. I also agree that a narrower ski suits Australia more than perhaps places with higher snow falls, but I am not sure the super narrow rentals are doing any one a favour. I do agree with the article's notion of having crappy rentals for novice skiers is a hindrance to their experience and that hiring demos is worth the investment. But at the end of the day its about what you want out of skiing. If you are going for a day trip, is it really going to make much of a difference if that is the sum total of the experience, probably not. If you are going to start skiing more regularly, then its more compelling to have a better ski to ski on. As for boots always a vexed question of where to go....
     
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  23. linked_recoveries

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    I have three pair of factory footbeds in the side pocket of my boot bag. Each is made from thin, lightweight foam covered with a synthetic fuzz and given some semblance of generic shape in a very low arch kind of way. Underneath each is two-tone, with a red section under the heel designed to give just enough support that the thing holds that generic shape. Without that support the foam would return to being flat. If I press lightly on the arch with a single finger each flattens to the table top. Stand on it and there's no practical support at all from the arch. That's fine if you're happy to wear your ski boot without any arch support, but even flatter feet will benefit from something a little more targeted. Doesn't have to be a custom footbed, just something that has taken the user's foot more properly into account. If your feet are utterly dead flat then I suppose you're good to go with the factory item.

    Buy some kind of footbed, then start trying on boots. The footbed will subtly change the way the boot fits, so why do it the other way around?

    [edit - and I agree we've derailed the OP's thread here, so perhaps we should just drop the subject]
     
    #23 linked_recoveries, Aug 15, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2018
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