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News Online petition- climbing in Grampians/ Gariwerd

Discussion in 'Backcountry' started by Chaeron, Mar 18, 2019.

  1. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    ParksVIC is considering closing off parts of the Grampians/ Gariwerd National park to climbing, and has already closed about 8 sites.

    Admittedly there have been some rogue climbers who have been irresponsible and some also insensitive to Indigenous sites of importance.

    However, it would be a major loss to the climbing community if access to some of the estsblished world class climbing routes was lost.

    Below is a link to an online petition to keep these routes open:

    http://chng.it/j9ytjGx5FZ

    7,600+ signatures as at 1pm 18/03.

    7,700+ signatures as at 1:20 pm 18/03.

    8,400 signatures as at 4:45pm 18/03

    8, 880 signatures as at 6:30pm 18/03

    8,960 signatures as at 6:50pm 18/03

    9,000 signatures as at 7pm 18/03

    9,200 signatures as at 8pm 18/03

    9, 275 signatures as at 8:15 18/03

    9,300 signatures as at 8:20 18/03

    9,350 signatures as at 8:30 18/03

    9,400 signatures at 8:40 18/03

    9, 475 signatures as at 9pm 18/03

    9,500 signatures as at 9:10 18/03

    9,580 signatures as at 9:30 18/03

    9,600 signatures as at 9:37 18/03

    9,700 signatures as at 10:00 18/03

    9,800 signatures as at 10:27 18/03

    9,850 signatures as at 10:45 18/03

    9,900 signatures as at 11:05 18/03

    9,950 signatures as at 11:20 18/03

    9,970 signatures as at 11:30 18/03

    9,990 signatures as at 11:40 18/03

    10, 000 signatures as at 11:45 18/03. Ending series monitoring here.

    12,000 signatures as a11:00 19/03

    13,000 signatures as at 4:30 19/03

    14,000 signatures as at 8:40 19/03

    16,750 signatures as at 1:00 20/03

    17,000 signatures as at 9:00 21/03

    17,480 signatures as at 3:30 21/03

    20,000 signatures as at 7:30 26/03

    21,200 signatures as at 10:00 06/04

    24,300 signatures as at 13/05.
     
    #1 Chaeron, Mar 18, 2019
    Last edited: May 13, 2019
    Alex.C, Tanuki and piolet like this.
  2. Bogong

    Bogong Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Done. I've never been much of a rock climber, but I like climbing in the snow and rock climbing is an allied activity to many other outdoorsy adventure things I like. It's rather shocking that they want to deny people access to things like this.

    The petition is going off. There was a new registration every 2 or 3 seconds when I 'signed' it. It's up to nearly 8,000 already.
     
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  3. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    It’s easier to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission!
     
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  4. piolet

    piolet Better make it three Ski Pass: Gold

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  5. Gimped

    Gimped One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Don't you feel the First Peoples have rights to these sacred sites?
     
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  6. ecowain

    ecowain One of Us Ski Pass: Silver

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    Yep thanks @Chaeron , also see all previous discussion and info in the climbing thread.
     
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  7. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    And why hasn't the climbing community pulled the rogues into line?
     
  8. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    The wars are ongoing.

    People bushwalk into the Wollemi Pine areas.... why haven’t bushwalkers pullled them into line? Same reasons: disparate user groups, no formal hierarchy, no desire for a hierarchy, huge age and viewpoint spread, etc, etc, etc...
     
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  9. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    But fk knows why whoever bolted a bunch of routes near art sites hasn’t been named and shamed and made to go to PV and explain themselves (or why PV haven’t followed the line of searching for the FA)
     
  10. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    There is every chance that the rogues don't know they are being rogues. A quiet word pointing out the problem, and hinting that they are putting continued use of the area at risk, might make a difference.
     
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  11. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    Oh they will know.

    It’s more than putting it at risk.
    Bans are in place.
    The challenge is reversing the broad bans where possible and/or appropriate.
     
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  12. piolet

    piolet Better make it three Ski Pass: Gold

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    Theres a fair bit of info regarding sensitive sites.
     
  13. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Perhaps I should have used the past tense. The community must have known what was going on. Did they do anything themselves?
     
  14. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    They are too polite

    Dunno to what extent there was discussion or chopping.
     
  15. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Done plus asked on facebook. Oh and that boulder problem photo was one of my first ascents :D years back.
     
  16. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Its all jemmy bar twisting down there. No flashy flamboyant grinders like up this way ;)
     
  17. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    The irony is apparently that one of the “rogues” is a licences commercial operator and so still permitted to climb in the SPA’s as per the two faced PV regulations!
    It’s either a Special Protected Area, which is great and commendable to maintain and quarantine cultural and environmental values closed to all or not if commercial operators are allowed!
     
  18. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    Who is it?
     
  19. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    What a brainless twit he must be.
     
  20. piolet

    piolet Better make it three Ski Pass: Gold

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    I'm not involved in the community, per se, nor climbing in vicco but I was well aware of a fair bit of publicising over the issue.
    Climbing is fragmented and people do what they think is best, short of physically stopping someone...
     
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  21. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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  22. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Petition now has 9, 800 signatures as at 10:30pm 18/03.

    @Bogong
     
    #24 Chaeron, Mar 18, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
  23. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Us in the climbing community are by definition a bunch of rogues - somewhat like BC skiers....

    Yes, there is the VCC and clubs etc. but.....
     
  24. zac150

    zac150 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Let’s face it how many brain cells does it take to think hmm maybe I won’t bolt that close to an aboriginal art site! Shouldn’t need info but I appreciate your point that the info is out there.

    Have signed as has Zacette.
     
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  25. Lady Penelope

    Lady Penelope One of some lot ... Ski Pass: Gold

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    A certain avid climber shared this with me on FB ;). Signed ...
     
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  26. currawong

    currawong Old but not so Crusty Ski Pass: Gold

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    done

    My climbing experience is extremely limited but it was pretty special. Only did beginner climbs at Arapiles and Cathedral, in the 80s.
     
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  27. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Certainly a great era thats for sure.
     
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  28. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    I’m not signing.
    We reap what we sow.
    It’s a tipping point for exponentially shitting in our playground.
    It’s also a tipping point in land managers turning a blind eye to their legal responsibilities.
    It’s also the beginning of a big tipping point for preservation of native cultural sites.
    How many mediocre sport climbs do we need in NPs to satisfy the lowest common denominators?
    What happened to minimal impact, adventure and preserving the environment for generations to follow?
    How many ski resorts do we need in alpine areas to satisfy the lowest common denominators?
    It’s the beginning of regulation because we can’t regulate ourselves using and sometimes desecrating government land of significant environmental and cultural value.
     
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  29. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    And all that Trad climbing at Summer Day Valley that was established long ago ? Do we deserve to lose it too ?
     
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  30. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    An awesome counter-argument. Much respect.
     
  31. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    It depends on the cultural significance of the area and also if it has been environmentally damaged by ALL users.
    Remember the 3 Sisters were shut down purely on “secret native women’s business”! Not as widely believed by commercial vertical degradation.
    IMO native cultural significance will significantly impact on our recreational use of these areas. It’s a big political time bomb about to impact, IMO, which is good, if appropriately managed.
     
  32. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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    Already happened at Bulahdelah. PV has simply failed in monitoring usage with stuff all input. Climbing community also should have pushed harder for a pro active stance on management - not just we wanna climb but strategic planning based on data collection and review processes.
     
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  33. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    PS: I’m not being defeatist, each area needs to be assessed on it’s on merits, culturally, environmentally and recreationally.
    PV needs to get its shite together and not be applying commercial and cultural/environmental double standards.
    Climbers need to respect that their perceived rights of access to government land comes with huge responsibilities for sustainability and preservation.
    The ground feeders have been left bereft by the new wave developers.
     
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  34. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Currently tracking at over 10, 000 signatures - see thread top for the trend data (an interesting insight into social media going off exponentially - this is how stuff goes viral, especially in cross-domain, multi-group areas when also leveraged by influencers)

    In this campaign Facebook, Reddit, email, forums have all leveraged existing connections across networks.

    See below for some recent discussions and analysis on online petitions.

    https://www.smh.com.au/technology/a...and-crowdfunded-projects-20180124-h0nqn3.html

    https://theconversation.com/not-ano...hy-you-should-think-before-deleting-it-110029

    Temporal dynamics of online petitions, Lucas Böttcher ,Olivia Woolley-Meza,Dirk Brockmann

    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0178062

    “The distribution of the local variation in different classes of signing activity are in agreement with previous findings on the popularity of microblogs on Twitter.

    Popular hashtags were found to exhibit less bursty spike trains compared to less popular ones and more popular user’s activity is less bursty than that of sporadic users.”
     
    #36 Chaeron, Mar 18, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
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  35. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    @Richard - your intuitive insights into the Metadata on trends in likes, thread popularity, post frequency, etcetera...?

    I’m always amazed at website analytics- hosted a website once targeted at NSW & VIC residents, surprised when most visitors were from mainland USA, but in retrospect should not have been....
     
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  36. Bogong

    Bogong Part of the Furniture Ski Pass: Gold

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    Chaeron, you should see the analytics of my little website which is mostly to do with Australian ski history.

    Well written and interesting articles (by me and others) sometimes get relatively few hits, while others which aren't so good get lots of views. However I accept that's just the random nature of what people find and pass on to others.

    What really surprises me is where the views come from. As you'd expect most are from Australia and there are lots from USA, UK, Canada, etc. But I have 450 views from Korea, 20 from Iran, 13 from Brazil and other views from the most unlikely places like Somalia and Togo.
     
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  37. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Yup - it’s amazing how it all works- without engaging in the kinds of shenanigans involved in search engine optimisation and cross-platform promotion.

    Good on ya - it’s a lovely site btw.
     
  38. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    10, 000 signatures in 36 hours - PV will have to give this a hearing.
     
  39. zac150

    zac150 One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    U-TW as you know this is one +1 area of speciality in cultural conservation, so we have had some interesting discussion.

    I appreciate your thoughts and acknowledge your points. However my question is, do you not think this may be wake up call many need to understand it can be taken away? especially those new to climbing who may not have seen or understand the history of issues in the past?

    I signed and I’m not suggesting you should, just interested in your view, as I felt the VCC response was very level, respectful and thorough. I see the discussions ahead as potentially creating a blueprint for the future.

    On a side note I totally agree on the time bomb of cultural significance. I believe people need to be made more aware so they can make the right choices. The concept of “country” is difficult for many to understand (I don’t fully get it yet), but it will impact where we can access in the future.
     
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  40. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    Totally agree!
    It’s a huge wake up call.
    There are a handful of people up here who must be really worried that their illegal impacts in wilderness and World Heritage areas are going to completely stuff up access for everyone else.
     
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  41. climberman

    climberman CloudRide1000 Legend Ski Pass: Gold

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    I suspect many of them don’t have a clue; there are huge amounts of people who just can’t seperate the wheat from the chaff, or understand why regulators might be fine with some areas but not others; ‘but they did it over there!’
     
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  42. piolet

    piolet Better make it three Ski Pass: Gold

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    Do those people actually care if it impacts others?
     
  43. Untele-whippet

    Untele-whippet beard stroker Ski Pass: Gold

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    They will if/when the proverbial hits the fan and the blame game starts.
    Their names are clearly available for all to see, including land managers in all the online and printed guide books.
     
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  44. Richard

    Richard Maintenance Dept Administrator

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    That math was way above my pay grade, however despite the impressive number crunching, I'm not convinced they enlightened themselves (or anyone else) with anything one could actually take-away and call 'an actionable insight'.
     
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  45. Kletterer

    Kletterer Thredbo Doughnut Tragic Moderator Ski Pass: Gold

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  46. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Agreed, all I got was - if it tracks consistently rather than sporadically it’s got stronger legs and will go longer & harder.
     
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  47. Chaeron

    Chaeron One of Us Ski Pass: Gold

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    Petition now tracking at 14,000 signatures.
     
  48. Legs Akimbo

    Legs Akimbo Grumblebum Ski Pass: Gold

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    Petition should be about securing funding for PV to enforce existing restrictions. Do you want free access to crags, do you want no access to crags or will you accept a fee to get access to crags if the fee finances regulation?

    I'm guessing, based on responses to the Falls-Hotham walk, a fairy godmother is the favoured response.
     
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